New info 2/04 overall things good, blood results, hydration

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New info 2/04 overall things good, blood results, hydration

Postby DorgEndo » Fri Jan 24, 2020 11:40 am

Writing this to help plan my future vet visit and receive input.

Overall I am fairly confident she is healthy. My areas of concern are (1) she might be small for a sudadult/adult dragon who also (2) recently woke from brumation and might decide to lay eggs. (3) Her food habits are eating not much food while also having a lot of seemingly hyper spring dragon energy. (4) Annual veterinary visit will include fecal sample, physical exam, and standard reptilian chemistries [Total protein, SGOT (AST), Phosphorus, Glucose, Calcium, CPK, and Uric Acid]. We can compare to 2019 chemistry results. (5) Some of her teeth are discolored at the base and I will bring that issue up to the vet.

Woke up on 1/04/2020. 108 days brumation.

As of yesterday she is 16 inches long and 386 grams. So her pre-brumation weight has been restored. Devlyn is now 17 months old, soon to be 18 months! Same length. She might be a tad small for an adult which I chalk up to the early in life stumbles that happened before I adopted her at age 6 months.

We are adjusting back to food. Initially she got a hornworm almost every day after waking up, about 15 hornworms. She needed the hydration. She has had 2 dubia meals, maybe 20 small roaches total since waking up. I purposely gave her small small roaches.

For the discolored teeth. That spot of her mouth always has a tendency to have food get stuck there. The gums are pink same as rest of mouth. Teeth are normal teeth color except for the base. I tried rubbing the area with a moist cotton swab but the color stays. Devlyn is resistant squirmy if I look in her mouth, but does not show any distressed signs. No blackbeard. No biting. No scratching.

Sadly it seems like she has regressed from her good salad eating behavior we worked on last year. I know the bug feast after waking may be influencing her too, she wants the bugs. Her poops have become super regular, every other day, which is the best regular for her ever. Hornworms were good for that. Now we have to go back onto salads. Salad = dark leafy greens, vegetables, squashes, and some fruit in that order. I make about 1 cup of salad so she has variety.

She has been very rambunctious since waking up and runs through her salad bowl. This is new for her. Makes tracking how much salad she eats difficult as the leaves will wilt quickly when she drags some over to the hot side and other pieces are trampled so much I can’t tell how much she is eating. I can tell, however, she isn’t eating much greens. As of today 1/24/2020 it has been probably 5 days she has not eaten food. Coming up on the weekend she will get some dubia roaches and crickets, probably 12 bugs total, salad every day. I 100% can withhold bugs and be more stubborn than she is to get her eating her greens. Syringe water feeding is an option for hydration which I have done and will do if needed: 1-2% water per bodyweight in grams, which is about 4-7cc water, 5 as a goal for ease when needed.

I will start over from the beginning to teach her that salad is good. Current plan for insect meals are 1 or 2 days per week. Alternating week by week.

She has in general lost her mind. HYPERACTIVE SPRING DRAGON DESTROY EVERYTHING MODE. I have a camera on her, starting around 9:00am until 5:00pm or whenever I get home from work she is moving. Glass surfing. Digging in a dig area I gave her just in case she feels like eggs. [50/50 washed playsand mixed with organic potting mix that was baked to sterilize a few months ago. She does not poop in the box or even close to it.] Other than digging no signs of eggs. She basks. She has figured out how to take her hammock off the wall and does that every day now. She knocks over 1 fake plant over and over for me to put upright. She appears bored in her enclosure and wreaks havoc. Outside she will run around a little, loves looking out the windows, and she will cuddle on her own terms. She will occasionally do a partial blackbeard if she gets cold outside her enclosure, warming her back up removes the blackbeard. Partial because it is black stripes and some belly stress lines – not even close to as dark as she can get.

ENCLOSURE
- Lighting is currently 100 watt reptile basking bulb (Exo Terra day bulb). UVB T5 34" Arcadia 12% new after waking up 1/04/2020 with reflector at 8 to 18/20 inches distance. Temps measured mainly by probes, a Herpstat1, ZooMed digital probes. Confession: I don’t own an IR gun yet. Hot spot 105°-110°F right now, 90°s, 80°s, and then cool corner is 76°F above the digging dirt during the day. Enclosure 48” by 17” by 19” wood with plastic sliding doors and ventilation ports. I open her door wide at least every morning and night for additional fresh air. Humidity can get down to 10% in my house in winter. My humidity gauges are analogue. Lowest night temp is 65°F. That is the lowest temperature by morning time, often it is between 68°F to 70°F. Cold nights make my house cooler than some days. No overnight heating provided. I have a CHE and additional ceramic fixture on hand if needed, they are not installed in the enclosure. Wake times from 7:00am to 8:30pm. She sleeps with bright happy colors for her scales.

Should I give my vet any other info?
Last edited by DorgEndo on Tue Feb 04, 2020 6:26 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Planning ahead for annual vet visit

Postby AHBD » Fri Jan 24, 2020 1:35 pm

You really need to provide much more info to be of help.....ha ha ha , just kidding, please forgive me. That's a ton of info and describes everything perfectly. I could actually visually the salad flinging + stomping, both are signs of a very healthy dragon ! Her weight is good, hefty for a 16". She may or may not be developing eggs but she is feeling her young age and what would naturally be a breeding time in her life. The digging is good + normal and the erratic behavior is to drive you crazy, she knows it works. :) Keep the insect feedings infrequent and offer more veggies, she should not lose weight [ if she DID, then just up the bugs again ] . Everything will even out. :)
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Re: New info 2/02, Devlyn might have scale rot!

Postby DorgEndo » Sun Feb 02, 2020 11:40 am

New info! Noticed yesterday and today it is more prominent
[Click image to enlarge]

Her head has been shedding since she woke up about 4 weeks ago. She has had stuck head shed before. Maybe this is new stuck shed. Maybe it is missed scales from the last time her head shed. I don't know

Originally I was going to see the vet in 3 weeks, but I'll move it up as best I can.

Gave a bath and scrub to verify it wasn't food or dirt

It's been months since her enclosure had a deep clean. I can sterilize logs in oven. Use chlorhexidine gluconate to clean the surfaces. Will start using silver sulfadiazine cream twice a day on discolored scales. I will wash things like her hammock in the dishwasher to steam clean it. I had just added a climbing wall made of string type stuff, I cleaned it before adding inside but I can hand clean that with chlorhexidine gluconate

: (
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Re: New info 2/02, Devlyn might have scale rot!

Postby AHBD » Sun Feb 02, 2020 11:56 am

Now that does look like a fungal infection. Until you see your vet you can use a betadine/water mix [ or chlorhexidine ] to apply 2-3 X a day with a Q-tip or small cotton ball and then put some antifungal cream on at night . Watch that Devlyn doesn't try to grab the Q-tip/cotton from your hand.
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Re: New info 2/02, Devlyn might have scale rot!

Postby DorgEndo » Sun Feb 02, 2020 6:55 pm

I only have Lotrimin as an aerosol. I used the antibiotic cream for today. I don't know if the aerosol would work the same, such as spraying a q-tip then using the q-tip on the scales so I didn't use antifungal today.

I have a big work conflict tomorrow so I'm not sure I can make it to the vet. My union is preparing for a strike vote and I volunteered tomorrow after work to take phone calls. This is the worst timing! I'll try to leave work early and fit in a vet visit.

My house does get dry. Not sure what else could be off in my husbandry. She is running around and overall acting so happy. I cleaned her enclosure when she came to me with pinworms. It will be cleaning and more cleaning. In my Beardie tails thread I recently showed all my lighting pics.
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Re: New info 2/02, Devlyn might have scale rot!?

Postby DorgEndo » Mon Feb 03, 2020 9:27 am

First impression from the vet is a possible bacterial infection. One because of how quickly it appeared and two it doesn't look like fungus in her experience.

Vet tried pressing a slide up to her face then viewing under microscope. Nothing seen, and that had a very low chance of showing anything.

Blood work done. I'll know results in 1-2 days. Continue using topical antibiotics BID. I have a dig box area just in case Devlyn felt like eggs. Vet did not palpate any eggs. Vet thought it was okay to keep the loose substrate area as long as I bake to sanitize regularly and she isn't pooping in it (she hasn't).

Will start/continue cleaning with F10 on surfaces, Hibiclens, and baking items that can be baked in oven. Temps good. Vet wasnt concerned with somewhat low humidity, since I can offer Devlyn a bath she thinks that will make up for it. No reason to mist. I can leave a water dish in her place (normally I put in water dish every other day, but I'll do every day for awhile to help get humidity up to 30%)

My vet lowered her prices from last year! Pleasant surprise. Same exam plus blood work last year was 261.30 total cost
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Re: New info 2/02, Devlyn might have scale rot!

Postby DorgEndo » Tue Feb 04, 2020 6:24 pm

New info 2/04/20

Synopsis - Things are overall good. If there is anything off, it is Devlyn suboptimal hydration. Which is her fault. She refuses to drink water. I offer water. There is a bowl. She occasionally has a bath.

This is not dehydration, it is a stubborn dragon who chooses not to drink when she must be feeling thirsty

(╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻

As I thought! I was worried about her hydration since she woke up exactly a month ago from brumation

You can lead a dragon to water but you can't make her drink
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Re: New info 2/04 overall things good, blood results, hydrat

Postby AHBD » Tue Feb 04, 2020 7:00 pm

What type of cream, is it silver sulfadiazene ? That would probably be the best. Avoid bathing, that can worsen it whether it's fungal or bacterial because the scales can hold water longer than you might think. Keep up with the Hibiclens or betadine on the area as well. To get her to drink, drip water on her snout slowly. Give it time, sometimes it will take a full 2 minutes or so before they realize it's a drink and then they start lapping it up. Drip, stop, repeat until she starts drinking.

I do worry about the substrate in the enclosure, no real way to be sure where her infection came from. The good thing is that she's still chipper + rambunctious. :) Hopefully she'll beat this.
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Re: New info 2/04 overall things good, blood results, hydrat

Postby DorgEndo » Tue Feb 04, 2020 8:04 pm

Blood work includes more values than 2019. So some do not have a 2019 comparison. I'm writing this for me moreso than anyone else. But if anyone else can get something out of it. Or at least enjoy it, I'm glad I could help.

Avian/Exotic CBC

WBC estimate from smears
2019 11.0 Normal
2020 11.0 Normal
Range: 2.8-14.6 1000/μL
Normal range. Stable from last year is generally considered good

HCT Microhematocrit Method
2019 39% Normal
2020 50% HIGH
Range: 23-39%
HIGH, possible indicator for dehydration this year 2020

RBC Morphology
2019 Normal
2020 Normal
Normal is the desired value. Normochromic (normal color) and normocytic (normal size)

Blood Parasites
2019 None seen
2020 None seen
None seen is good result

Heterophils
2019: 72%. Absolute: 7920 HIGH
2020: 82%. Absolute: 9020 HIGH
Reference range for absolute: 1146-6238/μL
The percentage went up due to less monocytes from last year. Heterophils are the most common WBC, so having a high count is not indicative in and of itself as infection. The increase in heterophils percentage is consistent with the decrease in the monocyte count from 2019 due to a chronic infection of pinworms

This could also be a marker for suboptimal hydration since the value is measured from cell concentration per microliter by an automated analyzer

7% of the increase comes from the 7% decrease of Monocytes and 3% of the increase comes from the 3% decrease of the Azurophilic Monocytes, thus the 72% up to 82% total Heterophils percentage maintains a consistency for the WBC automated analysis


Toxic Changes/Bands/Absolute Bands
2019 None seen/0%/0μL
2020 None seen/0%/0μL
None and 0 are the good results.

Lymphocytes
2019: 15%. Absolute: 1650 Normal
2020: 17%. Absolute: 1870 Normal
Reference range for absolute: 1146-6238/μL
Normal values and relatively consistent from last year to now

Monocytes
2019: 8%. Absolute: 880 Normal
2020: 1%. Absolute: 110 Normal
Reference range for absolute: 10-1078/μL
Both values are normal, but last year she had various symptoms of disease, monocytes are markers for chronic infections, the presence of Azurophilic Monocytes was also suspicious for chronic infection in 2019. 110 is probably Devlyn's personal healthy normal value, surprisingly this matches her 2020 value for Azurophilic Monocytes. The percentage decrease here accounts for most of the percentage increase of the heterophils.

Eosinophils
2019: 0%. Absolute: 0 LOW
2020: 0%. Absolute: 0 LOW
Reference range for absolute: 3-364/μL
Low is not bad in and of itself unless total WBC counts are low

Basophils
2019: 1%. Absolute: 110 Normal
2020: 0%. Absolute: 0 LOW
Reference range for absolute: 13-820/μL
In 2019 the normal result was suspicious with the Monocyte and Azurophilic Monocyte counts. Veterinarian wasn't concerned with this year's LOW result and took it to mean the absence of any immune response as a good sign that Devlyn has no infections

Azurophilic Monocytes
2019: 4%. 440 Normal
2020: 1%. 110 Normal
Reference range for absolute: 5-1540
Both years have normal value, however as I stated earlier other 2019 symptoms of disease and other WBC type counts were indicative of illness. This year the normal is lower and should be more consistent with what Devlyn's healthy normal is

Thrombocyte Estimate
2019 Adequate
2020 Adequate
Adequate
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Re: New info 2/04 overall things good, blood results, hydrat

Postby DorgEndo » Tue Feb 04, 2020 8:09 pm

AHBD wrote:What type of cream, is it silver sulfadiazene ? That would probably be the best. Avoid bathing, that can worsen it whether it's fungal or bacterial because the scales can hold water longer than you might think. Keep up with the Hibiclens or betadine on the area as well. To get her to drink, drip water on her snout slowly. Give it time, sometimes it will take a full 2 minutes or so before they realize it's a drink and then they start lapping it up. Drip, stop, repeat until she starts drinking.

I do worry about the substrate in the enclosure, no real way to be sure where her infection came from. The good thing is that she's still chipper + rambunctious. :) Hopefully she'll beat this.

Yes to silver sulfanilamide. I can do the betadine as an antiseptic and to keep area dry.

The bath was only to encourage her to drink. You have a fair point that water can hold between the scales. She always gets to bask after any water submersion. Beardie burrito is cute, but basking gets the body temperature back up and dries the sales

This year overall I'm going to try and teach her to accept food/liquid from a syringe. I expect it will take months to gently convince her that good things come from the plastic thing and she will feel better with that as a semi regular routine. She will not eat fruit, but maybe I can get small amounts of fruit in her with syringe training as well
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Re: New info 2/04 overall things good, blood results, hydrat

Postby DorgEndo » Tue Feb 04, 2020 8:54 pm

Reptilian Chemistries between 2019 and 2020. Some of these do not have a 2019 comparison.

2/22/2019 compared to 2/03/2020

Every value except Uric Acid and Glucose are a slight increase from 2019 to 2020 for those that have a comparison. The ratios are the same sort of increase, except Uric Acid. Suboptimal hydration would account for why all values, except Uric Acid, have increased slightly. Nothing is inherently wrong with any of these values. They are all good. However, I see subtle signs Devlyn could drink more like more wrinkles in her skin when she moves than I like or how she smacks her lips and I see her saliva has a slight stringy quality to it and I know she isn't eating her greens or drinking any water willingly. The other CBC valued could also be interpreted as suboptimal hydration.

Total Protein
2019: 5.0
2020: 4.8
Range 3.3-7.3 g/dL
Fairly consistent between years is overall good. Somewhat of a decrease is acceptable for a dragon who has less growing to do

Albumin
2020: 2.7
Range 1.5-3.7 g/dL

Globulin
2020: 2.1
Range 1.3-3.9 g/dL

SGOT(AST)
2019: 16
2020: 21
Range 3-75 IU/L

BUN
2020: 3
Range 1-4 mg/dL
Value was extrapolated due to specimen dilution

Phosphorus
2019: 4.4 - 2.89:1 Ratio Calcium to Phosphorus
2020: 6.3 - 2.38:1 Ratio Calcium to Phosphorus
Range 2.3-9.4 mg/dL

Glucose
2019: 226
2020: 183
Range 129-293 mg/dL
This decrease is likely from Devlyn not eating her greens every day

Calcium
2019: 12.7 - 2.89:1 Ratio Calcium to Phosphorus
2020: 15 - 2.38:1 Ratio Calcium to Phosphorus
Range 6.8-22.7 mg/dL
Discussed what I feed Devlyn and her feeder insects in depth. Vet said I don't need to make changes. She likes that I'm spoiling Devlyn with healthy food choices

Sodium
2020: 165
Range 143-173 mEq/L

Potassium
2020: 5.4
Range 2.6-6.1 mEq/L

Chloride
2020: 117
Range 103-145 mEq/L
Value was extrapolated due to specimen dilution

CPK
2019: 73
2020: 138
Range 17-3421 IU/L
Vet says being on the lower end of the huge range of what is considered normal is the better result

Uric Acid
2019: 1.3
2020: 0.6 LOW
Range 1.2-8.4 mg/dL
Vet said I can be way less cautious about Uric Acid so I don't over do it. I probably should have asked more questions but I didn't. I was happy Uric Acid was not an issue with being high

I think I'll throw two more text tables because deep down I knew Devlyn wasn't drinking enough water
┻━┻︵ \(°□°)/ ︵ ┻━┻
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Re: New info 2/04 overall things good, blood results, hydrat

Postby DorgEndo » Fri Feb 14, 2020 10:53 am

This will probably be my last post for this thread unless things change. I have a treatment plan that appears to be working well.
[Click image to enlarge]

I hesitate to call this scale rot, but it looks like scale rot. My house humidity is 30% max. I don't bathe her often, 2-3 times a month at most, and I ALWAYS put her inside her enclosure to bask and dry in her hot spot. No cute beardie burrito, my priority is always to dry her off. I have not used a hygrometer because her place was so dry I didn't see a need for one, but I can't verify without one so there is room for possible error. I do not mist her. She has a water dish during the day, removed at night.

From 2/02-2/10 SSD cream used twice daily. From 2/03 to current Betadine once daily. I'll keep up betadine and keep watching for improvement. The 2/14 picture she is a little dirty, and somewhat betadine stained because I want to limit getting her wet.

Changed lighting a little to enlarge her hot spot. I am pleased with a bigger hot spot. 75 by 75 watt bulbs. Around 110°F betwen/under bulbs where the light overlaps. Then a 105°F big ring of hot. Most of her enclosure is in the 90s/80s. The 90s zone seems smaller from all my probe reading. 80s is the same size. The 100+ is larger.
[Click image to enlarge]
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Re: New info 2/04 overall things good, blood results, hydrat

Postby AHBD » Fri Feb 14, 2020 8:29 pm

Wow, that's a marked improvement for sure ! Good to see and I hope she continues to do well and not have a recurrence. :)
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