really struggling with temps

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really struggling with temps

Postby RastaDragon » Sun Dec 15, 2019 5:44 am

hi everyone, (this is my first time trying to upload images, apologies in advance if i mess it up)

i got my viv built on friday, and since then i have been really struggling with getting the temps / understanding what i am doing :?

this is the complete set up:
Image
its a Repti-life 48x18x18 viv

this is the hot end:
Image
the bulb is an exo terra 100w

this is the cool end:
Image

annoyingly, the thermometer only reads 'C but the cool end is holding steady at 28.6 (83.4 F) which i think is ok? (probe is propped up against the back wall by the steps in the above pic)
Image

but i can't figure out how to get the basking temp correct and get also get the hot end hot.

the thermometer probe resting on the basking log (in the pic above) is holding at 50.4 C (122 F):
Image

and taking readings using IR gun at various points on the log give readings anywhere between 102 - 126:
ImageImageImage

i have a habistat dimmer in the basking light - i spent a good many hours with different settings and things last night / this morning and this is the closest i have gotten.

previously i had the basking bulb and CHE in swapped over places but that was giving me worse readings as the hot end was way too hot and the cool end was way too cold.

i can't figure out how to lower the basking temp without lowering the overall temp inside the viv?

the night time temps actually seem ok with the CHE on a habistat pulse and were holding at about 72(cool) to 78(hot) which i think is ok?

sorry for the long post - i really though i understood creating a temp gradient but i am a bit stuck i must admit.

any advice greatly appreciated - thank you :D
RastaDragon
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Re: really struggling with temps

Postby RastaDragon » Sun Dec 15, 2019 5:48 am

should have also stated that i have a arcadia 12% with reflector across 3/4 of the viv at the top of the back wall.

thank you.
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Re: really struggling with temps

Postby KarrieRee » Sun Dec 15, 2019 7:27 am

Is there a way you can raise the basking bulb so its not so low? A heat gradient is when you have piece of decor that they can sit in different places on that decor creating different temps--- your tank is pretty low -- can you center the CHE in the middle of the tank? 122 and 126 is too hot of which I am sure you know that-------------since the tank is so low your gonna hold heat in better -- you can try a lower wattage basking bulb see if that doesnt straighten out the temps-- it is a mix of trial and error w/ temps ---- I was having an issue earlier w/ my two dragons tanks - ones basking temp was not heating up like the others -- both have the same tanks set up w / the same lighting etc........ so I added another 50 watt bulb next to the 150 and it still seemed not to do the trick -- so I thought it was the fixture maybe nope it was the bulbs after I swapped out the two 150 watt bulbs Blazes went to Hiccups fixture and Hiccups went to Blazes fixture it seemed to fix the problem :roll: -- I have no idea what the deal was but now I am not using the 50 watt I had put on that side -- I had first tried a new 150 bulb that I had bought for backups when the other blew but even the new one wasnt doing it - I am not sure what was going on but Blazes bulb seemed to be stronger than the other two out of the box-- I know Hiccups tank sits closer to the window but we had covered that end of the window w/ a blanket to keep the cold off that end of the tank -- it is really weird and my tanks are not glass--- they are made out of bamboo -- some others on here might have some ideas of how to fix that problem as well - but I would start w/ moving your CHE and lower wattage bulb see if that fixes it
Karrie
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Re: really struggling with temps

Postby DragonPete » Sun Dec 15, 2019 9:15 am

I feel ya! I'm struggling to get Petey's temps right.
Hang in there, keep trying suggestions and good luck with it.
So thankful for all the experienced help here. I'm a newbie and would be lost.
-Dee
-Dee
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Re: really struggling with temps

Postby RastaDragon » Mon Dec 16, 2019 12:34 am

thanks for the replies - i have ordered 50w and 75w bulbs to mess around with, which i am really hoping will work.

being delivered to the office, so i have a whole day of work to get through before i can get home to do what i really want to do today! :D

just as a side note - i went out yesterday to the local pet store to try and find a 75w.
the only one they had was Arcadia (my 100w is Exo Terra).
i was a bit dubious of buying it as i have read so many bad reviews of Arcadia basking bulbs - and the bulb actually blew within 1 hour of turning it on!

i couldn't believe it - are their basking bulbs really that bad quality or did i do something incredibly stupid to have somehow caused this to happen?
RastaDragon
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Re: really struggling with temps

Postby RastaDragon » Mon Dec 16, 2019 1:57 am

another question, sorry!

is white slate ok to use for a Beardie as opposed to normal black slate?

would the brightness of the lights reflecting off it be bad for their eyes or anything?

i want to get some to try and make a little hide / ledge sort of thing - and for some reason the white slate is a fair bit cheaper.

thank you :D
RastaDragon
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Re: really struggling with temps

Postby RastaDragon » Mon Dec 16, 2019 2:10 pm

hi, little update.

i took everything out except the basking log, changed the position of the probes, moved the UVB tube to above the doors at the front, and swapped out the 100w bulb for a 75w:
Image

i put the dimmer thermostat and hot end thermometer probes on the basking log:
Image

the pulse thermostat and cool end thermometer probes slightly off the ground along the back wall:
Image

i've had it up and running for a few hours now - the temps are holding steady at - basking:
Image

cool end:
Image

so i think i am on the right track?

i've not checked with the IR yet as i want to keep the doors closed and keep the heat inside, i'll check that in a while.

:D
RastaDragon
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Re: really struggling with temps

Postby KarrieRee » Mon Dec 16, 2019 2:33 pm

What bulb are you using for the UVB? There is no decor under it for him to bask! I would look at getting more decor in the tank--- like a hide for one and a log that offers different places to sit that offers a temp gradient-- and is it in the tank or on top
Karrie
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Re: really struggling with temps

Postby RastaDragon » Mon Dec 16, 2019 2:57 pm

hi,
UVB is an Arcadia 12% 36 inch with reflector.
there's nothing in there because i was struggling with the temps so much i wanted to get that sorted.
i have various hides, logs, steps etc to go in too.
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Re: really struggling with temps

Postby kingofnobbys » Mon Dec 16, 2019 7:35 pm

RastaDragon wrote:hi everyone, (this is my first time trying to upload images, apologies in advance if i mess it up)

i got my viv built on friday, and since then i have been really struggling with getting the temps / understanding what i am doing :?

this is the complete set up:
Image
its a Repti-life 48x18x18 viv

this is the hot end:
Image
the bulb is an exo terra 100w

I suggest swap the basking and CHE . this way you can set up the branch or some pavers or fake rock grotto or even a sea grass or hemp hammock for the dragon to bask on.
A cage for the basking globe and CHE are very wise investments as dragons are curious critters and it only takes a glancing touch for the dragon to get a very serious burn.

this is the cool end:
Image

annoyingly, the thermometer only reads 'C but the cool end is holding steady at 28.6 (83.4 F) which i think is ok? (probe is propped up against the back wall by the steps in the above pic)

Yes 29 degC in the cool zone is fine.

Image

but i can't figure out how to get the basking temp correct and get also get the hot end hot.

the thermometer probe resting on the basking log (in the pic above) is holding at 50.4 C (122 F):

Way too hot …. should never be allow to exceed 40 degC.
ref
Image


Image

and taking readings using IR gun at various points on the log give readings anywhere between 102 - 126:

<<< this could be either due to specular errors ( reading the temperature of the reflected basking globe's image on a "shiny" surface or and including emissivity being set wrong on the "gun" .
Emissivity of white paper is about 0.68
ref https://www.infrared-thermography.com/material-1.htm
Consumer noncontact thermometers come with a preset emissivity of 0.9 , so in your case there is a very large error being introduced in the how the gun calculates the surface termperature of the paper , a probe thermometer will give the correct surface temperature.
This explains these errors and how to compensate for it
.
viewtopic.php?f=34&t=241233
ref for more
viewtopic.php?f=34&t=239064&p=1833542#p1833542
more explanation viewtopic.php?f=34&t=249355&p=1890490#p1890490


Image

Image

[img]
https://www.beardeddragon.org/useruploa ... _small.jpg[/img]

i have a habistat dimmer in the basking light - i spent a good many hours with different settings and things last night / this morning and this is the closest i have gotten.


previously i had the basking bulb and CHE in swapped over places but that was giving me worse readings as the hot end was way too hot and the cool end was way too cold.
Very important the probe for the thermostat be either fixed to the surface that the dragon will be basking on ( for surface temperature control - will likely be a few degC warmer there (dependant on the thermal mass of the basking spot how much heat is able to be absorbed the basking spot, and the rate it re-emits heat) ,
fixed to the basking spot in direct line of sight to the basking globe will give a combination of
>>> direct radiated heat from then basking globe
>>> and conducted heat from the surface
>>> and a very small component due to convected heat transfer ( will likely in inside the thermal boundary layer so air will be stagnant or in laminar flow in the boundary layer)


or very close to the basking spot but dangling in the air so the probe measures
>>> direct radiated heat from the basking globe
>>> the circulation warmed air temperature .
ie
Image

>>

i can't figure out how to lower the basking temp without lowering the overall temp inside the viv?

the night time temps actually seem ok with the CHE on a habistat pulse and were holding at about 72(cool) to 78(hot) which i think is ok? yes OK

sorry for the long post - i really though i understood creating a temp gradient but i am a bit stuck i must admit.

any advice greatly appreciated - thank you :D
Last edited by kingofnobbys on Mon Dec 16, 2019 9:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
CBDs: Cleopatra & Caesar born 28Jan19.
Puff (RIP 10Dec15),Rex (RIP 16Mar17),Toothless (RIP 26Nov17).Peppa (RIP 22Mar19).
EBTSs : George & Mildred (born july 2010).
EWSs : new rescues Cheakie (subadult M) Nov 2019, Gutzy (F) 27Sep19, Fluffy (F) rescued injured by lawnwacker 14Nov17, Wriggles (F) - injured rescue, over 8 yrs old, RIP 2Feb16 old age. Lucky juvenile (M) - cat attack rescue (lost r-eye, broken r-lower jaw), fatal SI RIP 21Jul2010.
kingofnobbys
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Re: really struggling with temps

Postby kingofnobbys » Mon Dec 16, 2019 9:31 pm

RastaDragon wrote:hi, little update.

i took everything out except the basking log, changed the position of the probes, moved the UVB tube to above the doors at the front, and swapped out the 100w bulb for a 75w:
Image

i put the dimmer thermostat and hot end thermometer probes on the basking log:
Image

Looks OK .

the pulse thermostat and cool end thermometer probes slightly off the ground along the back wall:
Image

i've had it up and running for a few hours now - the temps are holding steady at - basking:
Image

cool end:
Image

so i think i am on the right track?

i've not checked with the IR yet as i want to keep the doors closed and keep the heat inside, i'll check that in a while.

:D

I suspect you are over complicating it wrt temperature management.
I'd have the basking globe on a simple dimming thermostat and a timer ( both inline so you can manage photoperiod and daytime temperatures and daytime thermal gradient , see the above control layout ) and the CHE on separate dimming thermostat ( running 24/7 , if the tank is warm enough ( at or above the CHE thermostat's maximum set point it will simply be powered down ) and of cause if the tank temperatures is lower than the CHE thermostat's minimum setpoint it will ramp up the CHE's power output .
I think the if both the CHE and basking globe are located in the warm zone , and managed from the same dimming thermostat you might get better control of the temperature . Also ,don't set the control band too tight ( upper and lower limits too close to the aim temperature ).

Simple layout
Image


This is an very simplified diagram of how a good (dimming , or pulse , or full blown PID ) thermostat should behave wrt variable ambient temperatures and as a consequence variable error temperatures :
Image
CBDs: Cleopatra & Caesar born 28Jan19.
Puff (RIP 10Dec15),Rex (RIP 16Mar17),Toothless (RIP 26Nov17).Peppa (RIP 22Mar19).
EBTSs : George & Mildred (born july 2010).
EWSs : new rescues Cheakie (subadult M) Nov 2019, Gutzy (F) 27Sep19, Fluffy (F) rescued injured by lawnwacker 14Nov17, Wriggles (F) - injured rescue, over 8 yrs old, RIP 2Feb16 old age. Lucky juvenile (M) - cat attack rescue (lost r-eye, broken r-lower jaw), fatal SI RIP 21Jul2010.
kingofnobbys
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Re: really struggling with temps

Postby RastaDragon » Tue Dec 17, 2019 6:55 am

thank you so much to you all for your replies - it is much appreciated. :D
RastaDragon
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Location: London, UK
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