Dubia and Gout

[theyellowlabrador]

We recently discovered dubia roaches and Thanos (approx 8 months) loves them and devours around 10 smallish (upto 20mm in size) of them as soon as they appear in his viv twice daily!
I have been purchased them online but decided to ask our local exotic pet shop if they could source them and was told that because roaches store uric acid they are not good for beardies and can cause gout - just wondering what everyones thought on this are? We are based in the UK and for the last few weeks have been feeding roaches, locusts, meal worms and calci worms (black fly larvae in the U.S. i think)
Thanks

[MrSpectrum]

Sounds like a typical (not universal) large pet chain store here (US); they don't know nutrition from their elbows. Dubias are just one of several kinds of excellent staples for BDs. Don't take my word for it--spend a little time on google, and decide for yourself. Can't help but wonder if the store didn't have a source, and was trying to steer you to what they could provide (but I'm a tad cynical).

AFAIK, there's more controversy about mealworms and chiten. We had to get a small supply of mealworms when we ran out of dubias, and were admonished for doing so (but I had a plan). I mixed the mealworms with equal numbers of waxworms and the few remaining dubias we had. Zardoz relished them all, and has had no digestive problems. Our shipment of feeders came in today--dubias & superworms, but the BFSL we ordered with them were OOS. Well, he's got food, anyway (kinda young, and just started picking at a few greens).

[EDIT]
It was the BSFL that came in the shipment; the small superworms were OOS.
[/EDIT]

[theyellowlabrador]

It's such a mine field with contradictory information everywhere you turn - Thanos loves these roaches and eats them with relish, even when they are dusted with calciium, where as the locusts, if dusted he sometimes refuses, so I really thought I had found the answer. The exotics shop Ive used is a small independent one and the place we bought him from so not a big chain, but you might be right in that he was finding them hard to source - I have only found one online place that can deliver the size we need. Also I do think Thanos was underfed when we got him so maybe I need to disregard their info. They also sold us a 2.5ft length viv that was supposed to last for life!! I failed to do my research before we bought and am now paying the price!!

[AHBD]

I think the problem with roaches storing high levels of uric acid was with ones that were fed a high protein diet. Feeding them grain and mostly veggies is the way to go. Still, it's better to use a variety of insects to eliminate the possibility of any type of problem like that. Mealworms can be part of the diet, not as a staple or fed in very high numbers but they are not bad as many owners believe they are . Babies have a harder time digesting them so it's not a good idea to get them for a very smallor sickly dragon .

[theyellowlabrador]

Okay thanks for that - I have no idea what the roaches have been fed before they get to me, maybe I need to quiz my supplier! I only feed them veggies to try to gut load them. I also only give mealworm (5 max a day) to try to get him to the salad bowl but he's very adapt at picking them out!!

[KarrieRee]

dubiaroaches.com is a good source for roaches -- and other worms as well check them out I have been feeding my beardies roaches from them since they were babies ---
plus BSFL from syntomsbsfl.com as well
Karrie

[theyellowlabrador]

Thanks but we are based in the UK so don't think they would deliver that far unfortunately. I've messged my supplier here and when the dubia arrive they are packed with bran so hoping they are raised on bran and veggies.

[KarrieRee]

Oops sorry
Karrie

[Claudiusx]

Moved by Moderator from General to Feeders

[Claudiusx]

Hi there,

Dubias do have decently high levels of uric acid in their bodies. Roaches that are fed high protein diets have higher levels but as far as I'm aware, even when fed a lower protein diet, they still will have a decent amount.

While gout can be caused from many things, there does seem to be a loose correlation between gout and dubia roaches. That doesnt make them a bad feeder, but it reaffirms the importance of a varied diet, and not relying on 1 single food source for your dragon.

-Brandon

[theyellowlabrador]

Thanks you for that and apologies for my inability to get my post under the right subject heading again!!
I am going to continue using the dubia as my supplier has confirmed that he feeds his colonies on calcium enriched cereal and fresh veggies and not a high protein diet. I may cut back a little and give more locusts too but as he loves the dubia and it is my way of getting calcium into him I am going to continue and I will also continue the battle with salad. The good news is i measured him last night and I think he is now around 13.5 " so he must be getting some goodness out of his food

[MCHRKiller]

One of my dudes is quite picky and will not eat any feeder outside of a roach...I do vary his veg but his live feeders have always been dubia. I offer supers, hornworms, bsfl, yeah he wont take any of it. With that said he has never had gout and he is 3...this behavior of pickiness has went on since he was 4-5months old. His roaches are very well cared for and fed strictly vegetarian diets. I would say from personal experience the risk is very low for properly kept dubia to give your dragon gout. A combination of factors would need to happen for that to be an issue IME.

[MrSpectrum]

I'm not sure what the dubias we've gotten were fed previously. All have been empty of any food source, so the first thing I've done is drop in some sliced carrots. In the most recent shipment, the carrots (which I thought would last a few days from previous experience) were gone the next morning... hungry roaches I guess.

Maybe I've been lucky w/ Zardoz; he'll eat dubias, mealworms, waxworms, bsfl (basically everything we've tried), and some salad if properly incentivized (still working on that one). He was a little slow to appreciate the waxworms; they don't wiggle as much as the others.

However he's still showing a distinct dislike for calcium dusting, even when "thinned out". Maybe I need to find the right feeder--kinda like using the wrong seasoning on the wrong meat(?)

We have the most dubias on-hand, but we're emphasizing the bsfl for now because I read they're only good for about 2 weeks. They're also a pain to prepare--having to wash the coconut fiber off them before feeding (I should have read a little more too before following advice/suggestions). I don't want to think about what that stuff is doing to our drains...

We've come to calling his bugs "num-nums" because that's what it looks like when he hunts & eats them...
"Num-num... num-num-num... num-num-num-num... num-num"--it's a scream.

I agree there's some vagueness out there. Many people say BDs should eat a "varied" diet (I'm talking about feeder insects now--not salads) but what--exactly--does that mean?

1. Multiple kinds of bugs in every meal?
2. One meal of bug X and another of Bug Y and the third meal of bug Z?
3. Different bugs on alternate days/weeks?
4. What proportions/ratios?
5. etc.

At issue for us now is trying to plan ahead with our next order. Most of the mail-order suppliers (US) will be curtailing shipping through the holidays, so we'll have to plan carefully so as not to get caught short again. Fortunately, I've been logging every meal since we got the "leetle feller" so that should help some.

[MCHRKiller]

This is just my humble opinion.

Don't stress too much about diet...focus on staples your animal will eat and add in some treats they'll eat. Ensure they get calcium supplementation and have proper lighting...they will be fine. Look at feeders like cuts of meat...I am sure there are a lot of healthy cuts of meat you hate and wont eat; same with reptiles. My picky boy only eats dubia, select few greens(sometimes when the mood hits him), but will mow squashes of all sorts, peppers, carrots, melon, etc. I focus on the items he likes and will eat...he is the picture of what a healthy beardie should look like no MBD or issues with him. Reptiles are just like people they have preferences and no matter what you do they just wont eat certain things no matter how good it may be for them. Some people suggest starving them out to get them to eat it...but really is that worth it? To me it isnt.

In the wild these animals are opportunistic they eat what is available, depending on their location and territorial range that may be more diversified or limited. In either case they will eat what is there. Feeding 1-2 protein sources with a few types of veggies IMO is a varied diet. Toss in a few treats of fruit and what not they will be fine.

If your lizard hates the powder try liquid spray supplements...some say they arent as good but if your animal wont eat it...does it really matter if it isnt as good when they dont get any to start with?

[MrSpectrum]

No offense; a lot of that was preaching to the choir.

focus on staples your animal will eat and add in some treats they'll eat.

This is exactly what I'm talking about. What is "some"?

Feeding 1-2 protein sources...

Per meal, per day, per week?

... with a few types of veggies IMO is a varied diet. Toss in a few treats of fruit and what not they will be fine.

What's a "few"? (IME, that can mean anything from 2 to...?) Is that 3 types of veggies?
Every meal? Every day? 3x a week?

...AND WHAT THE HECK IS "what not"‽

It's the vagueness. Granted, I come from a technical background. "Feed as many dubias as s/he'll eat in 15 minutes" works for me. "A few", "some", "occasional", "what not"... doesn't; they sound like weasel words. As far as I can tell, they may all mean the same thing... "However the mood strikes".

I know... every dragon is different, but that kind of language is so vague as to not be helpful/useful. Is it so hard to be clear/specific?

I'm not angry in the least, but I am frustrated.