Vet versus forum

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Vet versus forum

Postby hellabombskies » Tue Oct 22, 2019 3:48 pm

So I took my bearded dragon to the vet the other day because two of her toes fell off. The vet asked an extensive description of her tank in which I described everything I had and the temperatures of the warm side in the cool side and all of that. I'm not going to reiterate it all here because I have many times before, so if you are curious of my husbandry, you can search my name and look up posts that I have started. Anyways I know that on the Forum everybody mentions that baby bearded dragons need a hundred to 105 degrees temperatures on the hot side. The vet informed me that the temperature in her tank is way too hot. She told me the hot side should be no more than 95 degrees. My beardie is about 4 months old according to the vet. Aside from retaining her shed and losing her toes, she is fine and very healthy. So which one is it? Should I do with the vet says because she has the degree? Why does everybody say 100 to 105 degrees on here?
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Re: Vet versus forum

Postby kingofnobbys » Tue Oct 22, 2019 4:11 pm

Vet is closer the mark , the POBT for a bearded dragon is 96 degF.

Is likely your vet has done some research and may well have a copy of Brown (A Guide to …. Australian Dragons in Captivity or one the zoological reference books put out the Herp Society (of Australia) or the CSIRO or Museums Victoria ( Dragon Lizards of Australia - Evolution , Ecology and a Comprehensive Field Guide ).

Look up preferred operating body temperature for central bearded dragons. IMO telling people to set up basking spot at 110 degF is dangerous , especially in summer .
Last edited by kingofnobbys on Tue Oct 22, 2019 4:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
CBDs: Cleopatra & Caesar born 28Jan19.
Puff (RIP 10Dec15),Rex (RIP 16Mar17),Toothless (RIP 26Nov17).Peppa (RIP 22Mar19).
EBTSs : George & Mildred (born july 2010).
EWSs : new rescues Gutzy (F) 27Sep19, juvenile Cheakie (M) 21Oct19
Fluffy (F) rescued injured by lawnwacker 14Nov17, Wriggles (F) - injured rescue, over 8 yrs old, RIP 2Feb16 old age. Lucky juvenile (M) - cat attack rescue (lost r-eye, broken r-lower jaw), fatal SI RIP 21Jul2010.
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Re: Vet versus forum

Postby ComicBookMama » Tue Oct 22, 2019 4:15 pm

hellabombskies wrote:Anyways I know that on the Forum everybody mentions that baby bearded dragons need a hundred to 105 degrees temperatures on the hot side. The vet informed me that the temperature in her tank is way too hot. She told me the hot side should be no more than 95 degrees. My beardie is about 4 months old according to the vet. Aside from retaining her shed and losing her toes, she is fine and very healthy. So which one is it? Should I do with the vet says because she has the degree? Why does everybody say 100 to 105 degrees on here?


As a dragon newbie with a dragon your baby's age, I'd be curious to hear the answers to this question myself. The only thing I can think of is that, from what I've read, it's the basking spot that should be 100 - 105, not the entire hot side of the tank... could the vet have misunderstood what you were saying? Or am I misunderstanding, and the ambient temp of your hot side is 100 - 105?
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Re: Vet versus forum

Postby kingofnobbys » Tue Oct 22, 2019 4:27 pm

ComicBookMama wrote:
hellabombskies wrote:Anyways I know that on the Forum everybody mentions that baby bearded dragons need a hundred to 105 degrees temperatures on the hot side. The vet informed me that the temperature in her tank is way too hot. She told me the hot side should be no more than 95 degrees. My beardie is about 4 months old according to the vet. Aside from retaining her shed and losing her toes, she is fine and very healthy. So which one is it? Should I do with the vet says because she has the degree? Why does everybody say 100 to 105 degrees on here?


As a dragon newbie with a dragon your baby's age, I'd be curious to hear the answers to this question myself. The only thing I can think of is that, from what I've read, it's the basking spot that should be 100 - 105, not the entire hot side of the tank... could the vet have misunderstood what you were saying? Or am I misunderstanding, and the ambient temp of your hot side is 100 - 105?


Warm Zone temperature range 30 to 35 degC is the CORRECT temperature advise , basking spot NOT HOTTER THAN 40 degC .
My dragons will bask all day under these conditions.
Last edited by kingofnobbys on Tue Oct 22, 2019 4:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
CBDs: Cleopatra & Caesar born 28Jan19.
Puff (RIP 10Dec15),Rex (RIP 16Mar17),Toothless (RIP 26Nov17).Peppa (RIP 22Mar19).
EBTSs : George & Mildred (born july 2010).
EWSs : new rescues Gutzy (F) 27Sep19, juvenile Cheakie (M) 21Oct19
Fluffy (F) rescued injured by lawnwacker 14Nov17, Wriggles (F) - injured rescue, over 8 yrs old, RIP 2Feb16 old age. Lucky juvenile (M) - cat attack rescue (lost r-eye, broken r-lower jaw), fatal SI RIP 21Jul2010.
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Re: Vet versus forum

Postby claudiusx » Tue Oct 22, 2019 4:36 pm

An Actual Experiment on Bearded Dragon Body Temperatures

Take from it what you will. And then go with the method of care you feel most comfortable with. Because in the end, it's your decision that should be based off of your knowledge, and your dragons best interests in mind. Not all vets are the know all - be alls. Just like common forum recommendation isn't always the know all - be all.
We had a vet here just yesterday that told someone you can't draw blood from bearded dragons so bloodwork isn't something that can be done.

I will say though, what we recommend here is based off of what has worked for decades. Of course things can change, but there will always be someone who has a different opinion of care. Kind of like with raising kids :)

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Re: Vet versus forum

Postby kingofnobbys » Tue Oct 22, 2019 4:43 pm

claudiusx wrote:An Actual Experiment on Bearded Dragon Body Temperatures

Take from it what you will. And then go with the method of care you feel most comfortable with. Because in the end, it's your decision that should be based off of your knowledge, and your dragons best interests in mind. Not all vets are the know all - be alls. Just like common forum recommendation isn't always the know all - be all.
We had a vet here just yesterday that told someone you can't draw blood from bearded dragons so bloodwork isn't something that can be done.
<<< there are general practice vets around who have had maybe 3 weeks of reptile vet science and medicine in their entire degrees , who are clueless and should not be seeing reptiles and will do more harm than good to the sick reptiles.
And there are college degree trained vets and there are university degree trained vets , the university degree trained vets have much deeper and much wider training and are the best choice.

There are general practice vets who will see reptiles and regard their owners as easy cash cows.

Exotics Vets are typically more experienced with birds. There are similarities with reptile vet medicine. But they also are not adequately trained in reptile vet science and medicine either.

Reptile Vets are vets who have had postgraduate training with reptiles are the best vets to take a sick reptile vet to.




I will say though, what we recommend here is based off of what has worked for decades. Of course things can change, but there will always be someone who has a different opinion of care. Kind of like with raising kids :)

-Brandon
CBDs: Cleopatra & Caesar born 28Jan19.
Puff (RIP 10Dec15),Rex (RIP 16Mar17),Toothless (RIP 26Nov17).Peppa (RIP 22Mar19).
EBTSs : George & Mildred (born july 2010).
EWSs : new rescues Gutzy (F) 27Sep19, juvenile Cheakie (M) 21Oct19
Fluffy (F) rescued injured by lawnwacker 14Nov17, Wriggles (F) - injured rescue, over 8 yrs old, RIP 2Feb16 old age. Lucky juvenile (M) - cat attack rescue (lost r-eye, broken r-lower jaw), fatal SI RIP 21Jul2010.
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Re: Vet versus forum

Postby kingofnobbys » Tue Oct 22, 2019 5:56 pm

Some data on PBT for young bearded dragons from
Thermoregulation and aggregation in neonatal bearded dragons (Pogona vitticeps)
Jameel J. Khan, Jean M.L. Richardson, Glenn J. Tattersall
Physiology & Behavior v100 (2010) pp180–186
url = https://www.researchgate.net/publicatio ... _vitticeps

ref to section 2.2 for their methodology.
Essentially a gradient 19 degC to 45 degC was set up very accurately and the basking behavior of groups of young bearded dragons studied and their dorsal temperatures measured remotely using a high precision thermographic camera.
Image
cites this
[10] Cadena V, Tattersall GJ. The effect of thermal quality on the thermoregulatory
behavior of the bearded dragon Pogona vitticeps : influences of methodological
assessment.
Physiol Biochem Zool 2009;
v82:pp203–17.

and variability for hatchling/juvenile bearded dragons
Image
None of the dragons chose to bask in the hot end ( above 40 degC ).
CBDs: Cleopatra & Caesar born 28Jan19.
Puff (RIP 10Dec15),Rex (RIP 16Mar17),Toothless (RIP 26Nov17).Peppa (RIP 22Mar19).
EBTSs : George & Mildred (born july 2010).
EWSs : new rescues Gutzy (F) 27Sep19, juvenile Cheakie (M) 21Oct19
Fluffy (F) rescued injured by lawnwacker 14Nov17, Wriggles (F) - injured rescue, over 8 yrs old, RIP 2Feb16 old age. Lucky juvenile (M) - cat attack rescue (lost r-eye, broken r-lower jaw), fatal SI RIP 21Jul2010.
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Re: Vet versus forum

Postby claudiusx » Tue Oct 22, 2019 6:26 pm

kingofnobbys wrote:url = https://www.researchgate.net/publicatio ... _vitticeps

Interesting article, I hadn't seen it yet.

However, what you are referencing was in regards to results from experiment 1,(EDIT: You added more to your post. I'm referring to your first chart, which is all you originally posted.) which involved a copper plate that was cooled on one end and heated (to 45c) on the other end; no traditional overhead heat source. Only 20% of the solo dragons chose not to be on the "warmer" side, and 23~% of the dragons in a group chose not to be either. So the overwhelming majority chose to stay warm in this experiment. Unfortunately, they didn't seem to state at what temperature those remaining 80% stayed at. That would have been an interesting data point to have. Unless I missed it.

However, this study is more about group behavior than it is about prefered body temps or basking temps. The Authors wanted to see if basking behaviors changed between solo or group, hence the two groups. They did not try to get into what temperature the dragons preferred, but simply if their basking behaviours were different if in a group in setting.

Still, a very interesting study.

-Brandon
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Re: Vet versus forum

Postby kingofnobbys » Tue Oct 22, 2019 7:58 pm

claudiusx wrote:
kingofnobbys wrote:url = https://www.researchgate.net/publicatio ... _vitticeps

Interesting article, I hadn't seen it yet.

However, what you are referencing was in regards to results from experiment 1,(EDIT: You added more to your post. I'm referring to your first chart, which is all you originally posted.) which involved a copper plate that was cooled on one end and heated (to 45c) on the other end; no traditional overhead heat source. Only 20% of the solo dragons chose not to be on the "warmer" side, and 23~% of the dragons in a group chose not to be either. So the overwhelming majority chose to stay warm in this experiment. Unfortunately, they didn't seem to state at what temperature those remaining 80% stayed at. That would have been an interesting data point to have. Unless I missed it.

However, this study is more about group behavior than it is about prefered body temps or basking temps. The Authors wanted to see if basking behaviors changed between solo or group, hence the two groups. They did not try to get into what temperature the dragons preferred, but simply if their basking behaviours were different if in a group in setting.

<<< Fig 1 answers that question (34.7 degC with standard dev under 2 degC).

Still, a very interesting study.

-Brandon
CBDs: Cleopatra & Caesar born 28Jan19.
Puff (RIP 10Dec15),Rex (RIP 16Mar17),Toothless (RIP 26Nov17).Peppa (RIP 22Mar19).
EBTSs : George & Mildred (born july 2010).
EWSs : new rescues Gutzy (F) 27Sep19, juvenile Cheakie (M) 21Oct19
Fluffy (F) rescued injured by lawnwacker 14Nov17, Wriggles (F) - injured rescue, over 8 yrs old, RIP 2Feb16 old age. Lucky juvenile (M) - cat attack rescue (lost r-eye, broken r-lower jaw), fatal SI RIP 21Jul2010.
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Re: Vet versus forum

Postby Drache613 » Tue Oct 22, 2019 11:42 pm

Moved by Moderator from General to Enclosures
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