Heating Gradient Way Off

Discuss substrates, lighting, heating, enclosure building ideas, share enclosure photos, and talk about any other enclosure-related topics.

Heating Gradient Way Off

Postby ComicBookMama » Sun Oct 20, 2019 12:33 pm

I just picked up a pair of Zoomed thermometer probes, one for the basking area and one for the cool side. Just put them into the tank about 20 minutes ago, and I'm not at all happy with the results.

The tile floor on the cool side is 71 F; the basking spot is slowly warming up (my 40B has a screen lid, so I had to take the bulb off it to remove the screen and install the probes) but right now it's only at 86.5 and probably won't move from there since Figment is currently lying on top of the probe... I had to put it in his hammock, since that's where he's been hanging out most of late.

I have a standard LED light bulb on the cool side, just for light; should I upgrade to a 75w floodlight to get the cool side a bit warmer?

And what on earth do I do about the basking spot? I've got a 100w bulb in there, and the hammock is about 10-12" from the bulb. It should be warmer, I'd think.

Both bulbs are on top of the screen, since there's really no way for me to mount them inside the tank. I'm REALLY worried about this, since heat is such a major part of keeping Figment healthy. Please advise.

~Chris
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
1.0 Bearded Dragons - Figment
1.0 dogs - Ariel
1.0 cats - Skimble
1.0 husband
1.0 son
User avatar
ComicBookMama
Hatchling Poster
 
Posts: 251
Joined: Mon Jul 13, 2015 5:59 am
Location: New England, USA
- Advertisement -
- Advertisement -

Re: Heating Gradient Way Off

Postby KarrieRee » Sun Oct 20, 2019 12:53 pm

Do you have a picture of the tank ---- I posted a link for a decor for basking for different gradients- if you can post a pic of the tank we can get a better idea of what we can help w/
So I found a pic of your tank --- I would take the hammock out and replace w/ the log you have in there and put it under the basking light - I would get a temp gun from your local hardware store and get temps w/ that at different places where he can sit on that log and then decide if you actually need a higher wattage before going to a 150 watt ------------- it seems that the 100 you have in there would be sufficient you can also put up some insulation on the back of the tank to make it warmer as well - like a Styrofoam or blanket something that doesnt touch the basking light --- thats some ideas some others on here might have more ---
Karrie
KarrieRee
Extreme Poster
 
Posts: 4226
Joined: Sat Mar 17, 2018 7:24 am

Re: Heating Gradient Way Off

Postby kingofnobbys » Sun Oct 20, 2019 6:59 pm

The temperature read will be dependent on if its
1 ) physical contact of probe with a surface (hot or cold)
2 ) in direct line of sight to the irradiating heat source ( MVB, basking globe (incandescent or halogen) or CHE
3 ) if dangling in air

Photos of how you have the two probes set us will tell us a lot and we'll be better placed to advise how to adjust things depending on if you want to measure air (zone temperatures) or surface temperatures.
CBDs: Cleopatra & Caesar born 28Jan19.
Puff (RIP 10Dec15),Rex (RIP 16Mar17),Toothless (RIP 26Nov17).Peppa (RIP 22Mar19).
EBTSs : George & Mildred (born july 2010).
EWSs : new rescues Gutzy (F) 27Sep19, juvenile Cheakie (M) 21Oct19
Fluffy (F) rescued injured by lawnwacker 14Nov17, Wriggles (F) - injured rescue, over 8 yrs old, RIP 2Feb16 old age. Lucky juvenile (M) - cat attack rescue (lost r-eye, broken r-lower jaw), fatal SI RIP 21Jul2010.
kingofnobbys
BD.org Sicko
 
Posts: 10945
Joined: Tue May 12, 2015 10:56 pm

Re: Heating Gradient Way Off

Postby kingofnobbys » Sun Oct 20, 2019 7:11 pm

ComicBookMama wrote:I just picked up a pair of Zoomed thermometer probes, one for the basking area and one for the cool side. Just put them into the tank about 20 minutes ago, and I'm not at all happy with the results.

The tile floor on the cool side is 71 F; the basking spot is slowly warming up (my 40B has a screen lid, so I had to take the bulb off it to remove the screen and install the probes) but right now it's only at 86.5 and probably won't move from there since Figment is currently lying on top of the probe... I had to put it in his hammock, since that's where he's been hanging out most of late.

<<< if the basking spot is a mesh or net style hammock, it'll not warm up like a rock or brick or even a bit of tree branch or even a fake branch or grotto made of dyed / painted acrylic will over time (very low heat capacity). You are essentially measuring the radiated heat (line of sight) and that of the warmed air circulating past the probe.
This will be several degrees F cooler than s hard (dark) surface with the capacity to soak up the heat.
If the basking spot (hammock) is about 96 F (air+radiant temperature, it's ideal , 86 F is on the low end but still OK (in the correct range) for a basking spot .
If your dragon likes it there , it's telling you what it likes.





I have a standard LED light bulb on the cool side, just for light; should I upgrade to a 75w floodlight to get the cool side a bit warmer?

And what on earth do I do about the basking spot? I've got a 100w bulb in there, and the hammock is about 10-12" from the bulb. It should be warmer, I'd think.

Both bulbs are on top of the screen, since there's really no way for me to mount them inside the tank. I'm REALLY worried about this, since heat is such a major part of keeping Figment healthy. Please advise.

~Chris
CBDs: Cleopatra & Caesar born 28Jan19.
Puff (RIP 10Dec15),Rex (RIP 16Mar17),Toothless (RIP 26Nov17).Peppa (RIP 22Mar19).
EBTSs : George & Mildred (born july 2010).
EWSs : new rescues Gutzy (F) 27Sep19, juvenile Cheakie (M) 21Oct19
Fluffy (F) rescued injured by lawnwacker 14Nov17, Wriggles (F) - injured rescue, over 8 yrs old, RIP 2Feb16 old age. Lucky juvenile (M) - cat attack rescue (lost r-eye, broken r-lower jaw), fatal SI RIP 21Jul2010.
kingofnobbys
BD.org Sicko
 
Posts: 10945
Joined: Tue May 12, 2015 10:56 pm

Re: Heating Gradient Way Off

Postby ComicBookMama » Mon Oct 21, 2019 2:15 pm

I've had the probes in all day today, and as suggested removed the hammock from the tank and put a half-log in the place where it was. I can't get a good shot of the basking area with my temp gun because I have to remove the tank lid and lamp to do so, which messes with the thermal gradient.

I also removed the LED bulb and replaced it with a 65w incandescent plant lightbub... incandescent bulbs are murder to find these days, so I hope that a plant bulb won't hurt Figment's eyes or anything like that. If there's a question about it, I'll remove it and replace it with a 75w reptile bulb, which would be the only other incandescent I could get my hands on easily.

Anyway, the tile floor on the cool side is now 81.1 F, and the surface of the basking log is 95.4 F (though I'll check it again in a bit, since Figment has been lying on it; he just left to lay on a cooler branch). Better, but not optimum... the basking area is a good 12-14" below the bulb; do I need to find a way to raise it up?

I'll try to get a picture of where the probes are later on this evening... gotta go on a cricket run now. Thanks for the advice.
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
1.0 Bearded Dragons - Figment
1.0 dogs - Ariel
1.0 cats - Skimble
1.0 husband
1.0 son
User avatar
ComicBookMama
Hatchling Poster
 
Posts: 251
Joined: Mon Jul 13, 2015 5:59 am
Location: New England, USA

Re: Heating Gradient Way Off

Postby ComicBookMama » Mon Oct 21, 2019 3:46 pm

Okay, here are my pics from tonight. Current probe readings - cool side 81.7 F, basking spot 93.7 F - but Figment is currently lying on the probe.

Cool side hab - you can see the black probe near the hide.
Image

Warm side hab - the probe is under Figment, taped to the half log he's basking on.
Image

The probe for the warm side, taped to the log so it won't slip off.
Image
Image

Figment being a pain in my side, sitting on the probe as I'm trying to get a decent temperature reading.
Image
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
1.0 Bearded Dragons - Figment
1.0 dogs - Ariel
1.0 cats - Skimble
1.0 husband
1.0 son
User avatar
ComicBookMama
Hatchling Poster
 
Posts: 251
Joined: Mon Jul 13, 2015 5:59 am
Location: New England, USA

Re: Heating Gradient Way Off

Postby kingofnobbys » Mon Oct 21, 2019 6:49 pm

I think you are overthinking.

The temperatures mentioned are fine.

Only issue I can see is the tape. Careful if it comes off , it could stick to the dragon's tummy and cause problems.

In your case I'd suggest
Image
cable pins to fix the probe to the bit of drift wood.
CBDs: Cleopatra & Caesar born 28Jan19.
Puff (RIP 10Dec15),Rex (RIP 16Mar17),Toothless (RIP 26Nov17).Peppa (RIP 22Mar19).
EBTSs : George & Mildred (born july 2010).
EWSs : new rescues Gutzy (F) 27Sep19, juvenile Cheakie (M) 21Oct19
Fluffy (F) rescued injured by lawnwacker 14Nov17, Wriggles (F) - injured rescue, over 8 yrs old, RIP 2Feb16 old age. Lucky juvenile (M) - cat attack rescue (lost r-eye, broken r-lower jaw), fatal SI RIP 21Jul2010.
kingofnobbys
BD.org Sicko
 
Posts: 10945
Joined: Tue May 12, 2015 10:56 pm
- Advertisement -
- Advertisement -

Re: Heating Gradient Way Off

Postby claudiusx » Mon Oct 21, 2019 7:33 pm

You dont even need to secure the probe in the tank. You dont need to even keep the probe in there besides when you want to get the temperature. Unless the temperature in your house is drastically changing week by week, your temps are going to most likely be pretty constant. And just checking them when things change or on a weekly basis is good enough.

If the probe reads 93 with figment on it, it's most likely within a good range anyways as it would be reading much higher without figment on it.

-Brandon
User avatar
claudiusx
Moderator
Moderator
 
Posts: 16236
Joined: Tue Jun 02, 2009 3:44 pm
Location: California

Re: Heating Gradient Way Off

Postby kingofnobbys » Mon Oct 21, 2019 7:54 pm

I'm an advocate of monitoring my zone temperatures using permanently installed thermometers.

I can see at a glance at any time of the day or night what my temperatures are doing in my bearded dragons' tanks, bluetongue skinks' tanks and the water skink tubs. Being permanently installed , I know the temperatures are all comparable and I reduce "systematic" errors to a minimum.

My thermometers are "no brands" off Ebay and are quite accurate and cheap enough to have in some cases 4 thermometers in a single tank.
I see little benefit buying "branded" thermometers which may or may not be as good and paying for the privilege of having a brand on the little box.

A lot of the issue is the type of thermometer probe shown by the OP is NOT suitable for trying to get a good handle on the SURFACE temperature of the basking spot. The are better suited to monitoring fluid temperatures ( air , water ) and substrate temperatures where the they are physically buried in the substrate.
The issue is the thickness of the boundary layer of air flowing over the warmed surface at the basking spot is a lot smaller than the size of the probe shown , so it's giving the air temperature and radiant heat (if in direct line of sight to the globe) and NOT the surface temperature since it's not in good contact with the surface.

This is the type of probe your thermometer needs :
Image
These are rated as Class A accuracy and have a probe diameter of 5mm.
This allows very good contact with the surface and insertion inside the boundary layer of heated surfaces.
CBDs: Cleopatra & Caesar born 28Jan19.
Puff (RIP 10Dec15),Rex (RIP 16Mar17),Toothless (RIP 26Nov17).Peppa (RIP 22Mar19).
EBTSs : George & Mildred (born july 2010).
EWSs : new rescues Gutzy (F) 27Sep19, juvenile Cheakie (M) 21Oct19
Fluffy (F) rescued injured by lawnwacker 14Nov17, Wriggles (F) - injured rescue, over 8 yrs old, RIP 2Feb16 old age. Lucky juvenile (M) - cat attack rescue (lost r-eye, broken r-lower jaw), fatal SI RIP 21Jul2010.
kingofnobbys
BD.org Sicko
 
Posts: 10945
Joined: Tue May 12, 2015 10:56 pm

Re: Heating Gradient Way Off

Postby ComicBookMama » Tue Oct 22, 2019 7:47 am

kingofnobbys wrote:I think you are overthinking.

The temperatures mentioned are fine.

Only issue I can see is the tape. Careful if it comes off , it could stick to the dragon’s tummy.


Oy! I didn’t even think about that. Thanks for the suggestion!
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
1.0 Bearded Dragons - Figment
1.0 dogs - Ariel
1.0 cats - Skimble
1.0 husband
1.0 son
User avatar
ComicBookMama
Hatchling Poster
 
Posts: 251
Joined: Mon Jul 13, 2015 5:59 am
Location: New England, USA

Re: Heating Gradient Way Off

Postby CooperDragon » Tue Oct 22, 2019 11:22 am

A rubber band or zip tie might do the trick if you still want to secure the probe to the basking log. The probes have a tendency to get pushed around a lot. Not a big deal if you're just getting a temp reading but it can throw off the controls of a thermostat.
Image
User avatar
CooperDragon
Moderator
Moderator
 
Posts: 24707
Joined: Thu Mar 27, 2014 8:41 am
Location: Iowa City, IA

Re: Heating Gradient Way Off

Postby ComicBookMama » Tue Oct 22, 2019 11:44 am

CooperDragon wrote:A rubber band or zip tie might do the trick if you still want to secure the probe to the basking log. The probes have a tendency to get pushed around a lot. Not a big deal if you're just getting a temp reading but it can throw off the controls of a thermostat.


Ooh! Good ideas. They can’t get munched on, either. Thanks!
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
1.0 Bearded Dragons - Figment
1.0 dogs - Ariel
1.0 cats - Skimble
1.0 husband
1.0 son
User avatar
ComicBookMama
Hatchling Poster
 
Posts: 251
Joined: Mon Jul 13, 2015 5:59 am
Location: New England, USA

Re: Heating Gradient Way Off

Postby ComicBookMama » Tue Oct 22, 2019 2:06 pm

Okay, maybe I am overthinking... but I keep reading that basking temps for young dragons need to be 100 - 105 F, and the 95 / 96 F that I'm getting on the log just isn't sitting right with me. I am going to experiment with moving the probe to the highest branch and see what kind of readings I get. I'll also have to move the lamp a little. I know that Figment can get up there if he chooses to, and if temps up there are around 100, at least I'll know that he's choosing the lower temps because he wants to, not because I'm a poor keeper. Does that sound reasonable?

Sorry for being such a pain; I just want to make sure Figment has everything he needs to be happy and healthy (though I think he'd tell me that if I really wanted him to be happy, I'd put his hammock back in!)
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
1.0 Bearded Dragons - Figment
1.0 dogs - Ariel
1.0 cats - Skimble
1.0 husband
1.0 son
User avatar
ComicBookMama
Hatchling Poster
 
Posts: 251
Joined: Mon Jul 13, 2015 5:59 am
Location: New England, USA

Re: Heating Gradient Way Off

Postby ComicBookMama » Tue Oct 22, 2019 4:07 pm

I'm satisfied. Figment has been going back and forth between his log and his high branch all evening, and on the probe (when he's not sitting on it) the temp on the high branch shows 102.5 F. I may borrow the cool side probe to check temps on the log, but my guesstimate (since the lamp isn't directly over it anymore) is that it's in the low 90's.

Phew. One thing this has taught me, however, is that my next hab (when Figment is grown and I have the cash and the space) will be a front-opener. It's a pain not to be able to just reach in and zap the place I want a temp reading with my temp gun!
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
1.0 Bearded Dragons - Figment
1.0 dogs - Ariel
1.0 cats - Skimble
1.0 husband
1.0 son
User avatar
ComicBookMama
Hatchling Poster
 
Posts: 251
Joined: Mon Jul 13, 2015 5:59 am
Location: New England, USA
- Advertisement -
- Advertisement -


Return to Enclosures

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users