URI in Baby Beardie?

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URI in Baby Beardie?

Postby moth3rofdragons » Sat Aug 24, 2019 6:10 pm

Hello, fellow beardie parents!

First, I want to apologize in advance if I am too wordy with this post.

I need some help regarding a new baby beardie I purchased from Petsmart. I know... But I consider it rescuing the poor beardies! I only wish I could rescue all of them. I purchased two babies, a leatherback and from what I can tell, a hypo (clear nails, but too small and squirmy to examine all of the toes). :D

Kamikaze (the hypo) I believe might have a URI. Beginning yesterday, I noticed more gaping than usual and infrequent clicking/popping noises. Today there seems to be more gaping and popping, but still infrequent, i.e. when holding Kamikaze to try to listen more closely, I couldn't hear a thing. Might be because he is frightened. I've only had them 6 days.

I've searched the forums and note that Tylosin administered via nebulizer/vaporizer is a good route, with Baytril as a potential backup.

The question I'm going to ask may seem unethical, but I ask simply because I do not have confidence in the only reptile/herp vet in my area (Bay Area, California), after 2 months of unsuccessful antibiotic treatment of Kammie, my first baby beardie I purchased in February.

The back story
Kammie had some sort of stuck shed or a bite from a Petco cage mate that morphed into a terrible skin condition and a swollen rear foot. The vet could not identify the cause because it did NOT present as or appear to be yellow fungus. This was an initial concern of mine because I purchased Kammie after she was quarantined with her cage mate. The Petco sales associate told me a third cage mate had died from yellow fungus, thus the quarantine. When I brought Kammie back to Petco so they could send out a test for yellow fungus, the test came back as negative. I told the sales associate that no matter the outcome, I would be keeping Kammie. I had researched yellow fungus while waiting for the results and knew it was essentially a slow and painful death sentence.

After $2K in vet bills and a recommendation that I put her under general anesthesia so they could obtain 2 biopsies to send to pathology for a more determinative treatment, I declined. At this point, Kammie was not eating, not drinking, and in extensive pain due to the scabs and missing scales she had on her underside. I thought I was going to lose her, at which time I asked the vet to prescribe pain medication until Kammie passed. The vet also prescribed Critical Care.

I wasn't ready to give up though, and neither was Kammie. I already had the BeneBac (funny how I bought this on my own and not from any recommendation from the vet) for the 2 months worth of antibiotics she was getting. I purchased bee pollen, colloidal silver, Monistat and generic Lotrimin.

Within 2-3 days of alternating the Monistat and Lotrimin and dissolving the BeneBac, colloidal silver, and bee pollen in her drinking water, Kammie's scabs begin to dry up and all eventual fell off. Her appetite came back. I'm happy to report Kammie is much better. Her foot is still somewhat swollen, and she has no scales where the scabs used to be, but she eats like a champ (still not big on veggies though) and pretty much has me trained to hand feed her daily. :lol:

Back to the Question(s)
What websites can I buy both Baytril and Tylosin at reasonable prices?
Is there a weight or length requirement for administering either? In looking at Panacur dosages, the dosing chart I found started at 50 grams. I've got a way to go yet should they need Panacur. I'm not sure what Baytril or Tylosin should be, if at all, for a baby!

I've looked on Amazon, PetRx, 1-800-Petmeds, etc. Either a vendor will have one medication, but not the other, or none at all. My other concern is the lead time in getting the meds. I want them sooner than later, particularly in such a young and teensy weensy baby beardie.

When I purchased Kamikaze six days ago, he was 12-13 grams and approximately 7" OVT. Today he weighs 18 grams.

Current enclosure set up

1. 60L plastic bin, paper towel substrate. I know this is on the small end for 2 baby beardies, but it is very temporary. I purchased a 4' Carolina Custom tank for Kammie, and the 2 babies will go into her 40g breeder once the table for the 4' tank arrives, and I've thoroughly disinfected with F10. In a couple months, the babies will be separated, as I'm pretty confident Kamikaze is a male and the leatherback is female. I can see femoral pores on Kamikaze already. I also thought Kammie was a girl, but after checking a couple nights ago, I believe Kammie is a boy. I know no 2 males in an enclosure, and I definitely have enough babies for now! No breeding anytime soon, if at all.


2. 100W MVB, temp is at 105 degrees on the hot end, about 85-89 degrees on the cool end. Running a 13-hour daytime cycle, on timer. After reading about recommended temps for URIs, I've increased the temp to 110. Tonight I will be using a ceramic heater to keep nighttime temps at around 80 degrees. Ambient night temp in my home is about 74 degrees.

3. Fresh water and veggies daily, for the entire day: a combination of finely chopped collard greens and mustard greens; water is removed every evening. 3/8" dusted dubia roaches or BSF, fed 3x a day. I have started a dubia colony, but no nymphs yet. None of my babies will be getting crickets. Kammie had parasites and that med along with everything else she was going through taught me well. The vet never told me which parasite(s), and I've since purchased all the materials needed to do my own fecal tests. I still have some Panacur left over should I need to treat the babies when they are at the appropriate weight.

If there is any additional advice, recommendations, or caveats, I greatly appreciate it! This forum has been a blessing, first when I was researching all about being a new beardie mom, Kammie's illness, and now, a potential URI. I hope I can eventually pass it forward.

Thank you again for all the help!
Mama to 3 precious dragons
Kammie~because she's camoflauged
Kamikaze~because he's crazy!
Kali~Greek for 'good,' because she's so sweet
moth3rofdragons
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Re: URI in Baby Beardie?

Postby claudiusx » Sat Aug 24, 2019 6:35 pm

Hi there,

I think you're jumping the gun a bit.

Clicking and gaping are signs of a URI, but they are also not definitive signs of an actual infection.

You've only had him for 6 days. It sounds like the conditions at that particular store were very poor. However, dragons are tough creatures. And when placed under proper husbandry, their immune system is given the chance it needs to take care of itself.

I would seriously consider holding off on any treatment and see what proper husbandry does. It could just take another week or so of proper temperatures and diet to get him back to 100%

He is gaining weight, which is huge! That says a lot about his condition and how he is feeling.

Your setup sounds fine. What mvb are you using and what distance is it to the basking surface.
Also good to use the che at night. That will help boost the immune system and hopefully dry out the lungs.

It's amazing what you did with your other dragon, but I really dont think you need to go to those measures for kami. At least not yet. Give him a chance to fight it off first :) it sounds pretty mild anyways.

-Brandon
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Re: URI in Baby Beardie?

Postby moth3rofdragons » Sat Aug 24, 2019 11:11 pm

claudiusx wrote:Hi there,

I think you're jumping the gun a bit.

Clicking and gaping are signs of a URI, but they are also not definitive signs of an actual infection.

You've only had him for 6 days. It sounds like the conditions at that particular store were very poor. However, dragons are tough creatures. And when placed under proper husbandry, their immune system is given the chance it needs to take care of itself.

I would seriously consider holding off on any treatment and see what proper husbandry does. It could just take another week or so of proper temperatures and diet to get him back to 100%

He is gaining weight, which is huge! That says a lot about his condition and how he is feeling.

Your setup sounds fine. What mvb are you using and what distance is it to the basking surface.
Also good to use the che at night. That will help boost the immune system and hopefully dry out the lungs.

It's amazing what you did with your other dragon, but I really dont think you need to go to those measures for kami. At least not yet. Give him a chance to fight it off first :) it sounds pretty mild anyways.

-Brandon


Hi Brandon,

Thank you for the reassurance! Yes, I admit I am jumping the gun, trying to preempt being unprepared. I was worried that being so young and small would mean an infection would set in faster and be worse than in an older, heavier dragon. I'm also worried that it'll pass to his cage mate and (though separated) older sister who may still have a compromised immune system. I know my experience with Kammie and her vet visits are a heavy influence. She was only about 2 months old when the ordeal began. I was so worried and sad that I might lose her, that I am being a bit too overprotective now. I'm relieved to know that it's OK to wait a bit longer to see how it all pans out! I'll give it another week or so.

The conditions at the store were the typical scenario: small enclosure (not even a 10g tank) with about 7 babies. No veggies or bugs while I was there, only larger sized pellets. Small lamp (unlikely UVB), and many of the beardies were crowding for the light, droppings everywhere. Kamikaze was glass surfing the entire time I watched before I asked to hold him.

I'm using a 100W Powersun MVB in a Fluker's deep dome fixture over the bin. The bin is open at the top, and the light hangs from a lampstand. The light was purchased in April and only used for a couple weeks before I bought a 160W for Kammie when her situation got worse. The light is approximately 15" from the basking log directly below it, where it reads at 105-110 degrees. The higher end of the log is farther away from and not in the direct line of light. There it reads around 95 degrees. The cool end is about 85-89 degrees.

Thank you again, Brandon! I've included a Google photos link to pictures of Kammie and the littles one. I'm guessing she was about 6-8 weeks old when I got her at 7.5" long. At approximately 8 months old, she weighs 314g at last weigh in a week ago and measures 17" long. I also included some photos of just how bad the mystery bug got. I'm so glad Kammie pulled through. She's a trooper! Now fingers crossed that Kamikaze is just as resilient. :) https://photos.app.goo.gl/sRm3ZzZNxkwDw79m9
Mama to 3 precious dragons
Kammie~because she's camoflauged
Kamikaze~because he's crazy!
Kali~Greek for 'good,' because she's so sweet
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Re: URI in Baby Beardie?

Postby Drache613 » Sun Aug 25, 2019 11:35 pm

Hello,

Your setup sounds completely fine. You have spent a great amount of time on your research
for the tanks & living arrangements. Just be sure the cooler end doesn't get too hot. Try to
keep it down to a range of 78-82 or so, on the cooler end, or no more than 85. As long as the
basking temperatures are optimal he should start to recover nicely. At least he is gaining some
weight also, that's a great sign!
I agree, give him just a little more time. Reptiles do take a little longer than mammals to recover.
He is young so his metabolism is high. Hopefully his system will just kick in quickly!
That is amazing what you did for your Kammie, so she is all better now? Those areas look like
some type of fungal infection, but, not yellow fungus. I am so glad you were able to get it all
cleared up for her.

Let us know how things are going!
Tracie
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Re: URI in Baby Beardie?

Postby moth3rofdragons » Tue Aug 27, 2019 4:52 pm

Drache613 wrote:Hello,

Your setup sounds completely fine. You have spent a great amount of time on your research
for the tanks & living arrangements. Just be sure the cooler end doesn't get too hot. Try to
keep it down to a range of 78-82 or so, on the cooler end, or no more than 85. As long as the
basking temperatures are optimal he should start to recover nicely. At least he is gaining some
weight also, that's a great sign!
I agree, give him just a little more time. Reptiles do take a little longer than mammals to recover.
He is young so his metabolism is high. Hopefully his system will just kick in quickly!
That is amazing what you did for your Kammie, so she is all better now? Those areas look like
some type of fungal infection, but, not yellow fungus. I am so glad you were able to get it all
cleared up for her.

Let us know how things are going!
Tracie


Hi Tracie,

Thank you so much for the advice. Kamikaze clicks now while eating and gapes between mouthfuls. I also noticed some bubbling at the side of his mouth today.

Is there a point where I should be concerned and start meds? Or should I start with nebulization until he weighs more ?

I'm at a loss of where to begin if nebulization is the way to go first.

I found generic tylosin, but the vendor is currently out of stock. Same with F10 SC; I can't find the smaller bottles anywhere, everyone is out. I have F10SCXD, but I know this has detergents added and is only for disinfecting, not for nebulization.

I ordered reptiaid after my first post, but it's been delayed and won't be here until tomorrow. I also ordered Baytril 2.5%, just to have on hand for oral if needed, and I forgot that I have some ceftazidime. The Baytril arrives on Thursday.

Tracie, what would you recommend?

Thank you for asking about Kammie. She is much better! Her foot is still dark grey and somewhat swollen, but it sheds. All the areas on her body that formerly had scales are in constant shed. I can see where the skin is regenerating and thickening back to a cream color, not the transparent pink that resembled membrane rather than skin. It's hard to explain. There are no scales, more like the skin that is found in the hip joint: smooth with some creases that make the skin look like there are little bumps or mini pseudo-scales.
Mama to 3 precious dragons
Kammie~because she's camoflauged
Kamikaze~because he's crazy!
Kali~Greek for 'good,' because she's so sweet
moth3rofdragons
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Re: URI in Baby Beardie?

Postby Drache613 » Tue Aug 27, 2019 10:07 pm

Hello,

That is terrific though, the shedding on Kammie's foot/feet have gotten better. Reptiles heal up
so slowly but it sounds like it will hopefully all clear up soon. I'm glad to hear she has improved
so much now.
How would you describe the clicks on Kamikaze, steady or every so often? Has he gotten any
worse the last few days?
The reptaid may help out, it's pretty strong & effective for a lot of people who have used it. Let's
try just the reptaid first for a week or so & see if he improves. So you ordered some baytril to have
on hand in case? Nebulization is pretty easy to do. That would be easier on him than the orals
since he is small. If he starts showing more signs then you can definitely go with the meds. Such
as lethargic behavior, loss of appetite, thicker or off colored saliva in excess in the mouth or nose
like if they had a cold, etc.
I can help with nebulizing, if you need. let us know how he is doing.

Tracie
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Re: URI in Baby Beardie?

Postby moth3rofdragons » Wed Aug 28, 2019 6:51 pm

Drache613 wrote:Hello,

That is terrific though, the shedding on Kammie's foot/feet have gotten better. Reptiles heal up
so slowly but it sounds like it will hopefully all clear up soon. I'm glad to hear she has improved
so much now.
How would you describe the clicks on Kamikaze, steady or every so often? Has he gotten any
worse the last few days?
The reptaid may help out, it's pretty strong & effective for a lot of people who have used it. Let's
try just the reptaid first for a week or so & see if he improves. So you ordered some baytril to have
on hand in case? Nebulization is pretty easy to do. That would be easier on him than the orals
since he is small. If he starts showing more signs then you can definitely go with the meds. Such
as lethargic behavior, loss of appetite, thicker or off colored saliva in excess in the mouth or nose
like if they had a cold, etc.
I can help with nebulizing, if you need. let us know how he is doing.

Tracie


Hi Tracie,

Thank you! I will try the Reptiaid for a week. Kamikaze's clicks are steady now. He'll close his mouth to breathe and after one or two breaths will open his mouth to breathe again. Every time he opens his mouth he is clicking. His breathing looks labored, and he did not eat as much today as previous days. Every time he tried to eat, he'd take one bite, stop after swallowing as though struggling, mouth open with the clicking. After 2 or 3 bites, he stopped eating and ran back to the basking spot. This was during both feedings. Tonight I hand fed him some BSF larvae, and he ate 2 then refused to eat anymore.

Both the Reptiaid and Baytril arrived today. I gave him one drop of Reptiaid (as recommended under 25g bodyweight) this morning and another drop late this afternoon. I refrained from giving him the highest dose of 2 drops each time, because I notice this product has clove. It's a great antimicrobial, but clove is really potent.

I am still looking for F10sc so I can nebulize. May I keep you posted as to how he's progressing this week with Reptiaid? Hopefully, I'll have found some F10 by then. I would love your recommendations for nebulizing once I'm set with the most important ingredient. I'm very worried about him and hate to see the labored breathing.

~Nikki
Mama to 3 precious dragons
Kammie~because she's camoflauged
Kamikaze~because he's crazy!
Kali~Greek for 'good,' because she's so sweet
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Re: URI in Baby Beardie?

Postby claudiusx » Wed Aug 28, 2019 6:58 pm

Hi Nikki,

Darn I was really hoping he'd fight it off himself but he does seem to be having some trouble.
I'm glad you noticed that about the reptaid. Many people think it's a super safe product simply because of it being natural. However it is pretty potent and while it did work with my girl many years ago, I also noticed that it seemed to be kind of tough on her system. In the end it did what I hoped it to do, but it definitely wasnt the "super safe easy on the system" that it was market as back then.

Anyways I'm rambling. Tracie is definitely the one to take advice from at this point, but I figured I'd at least let you know that I'm still here rooting for you two.

-Brandon
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Re: URI in Baby Beardie?

Postby Drache613 » Wed Aug 28, 2019 11:33 pm

Hello,

Poor thing, I agree, I was hoping he wouldn't continue having breathing issues. Definitely
let us know how he is progressing. If the clicking & excess saliva continue, you will have
to do some medications but it sounds like you are getting prepared.
Sure, I can help with the nebulization doses, amounts, frequency, etc for you.
Has he had much of an appetite still? I hope he keeps that up anyway.
You are right, the Reptaid is very strong & has been effective for a lot of people. Do use
with caution since he is so small & young.

Tracie
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Re: URI in Baby Beardie?

Postby moth3rofdragons » Fri Aug 30, 2019 8:55 pm

claudiusx wrote:Hi Nikki,

Darn I was really hoping he'd fight it off himself but he does seem to be having some trouble.
I'm glad you noticed that about the reptaid. Many people think it's a super safe product simply because of it being natural. However it is pretty potent and while it did work with my girl many years ago, I also noticed that it seemed to be kind of tough on her system. In the end it did what I hoped it to do, but it definitely wasnt the "super safe easy on the system" that it was market as back then.

Anyways I'm rambling. Tracie is definitely the one to take advice from at this point, but I figured I'd at least let you know that I'm still here rooting for you two.

-Brandon


Hi Brandon,

Thank you for rooting for Kamikaze and I! I went to tuck the little guy in with his cage mate in their blankie, and he crawled right into my hand not wanting to be put down. He's currently snuggled into my neck/chest and sleeping.

How long before the Reptiaid starting helping your gal? Last night he didn't click as much with his breathing, but tonight it's every couple of breaths. I really don't want to have to use the Baytril. He's so tiny, I can't give him a dose that will be meaningful until he weighs more! I now understand why the dosing chart at low dose for Baytril starts at 50g body weight.

How old is your girl now?

~Nikki
Mama to 3 precious dragons
Kammie~because she's camoflauged
Kamikaze~because he's crazy!
Kali~Greek for 'good,' because she's so sweet
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Re: URI in Baby Beardie?

Postby moth3rofdragons » Fri Aug 30, 2019 9:16 pm

Drache613 wrote:Hello,

Poor thing, I agree, I was hoping he wouldn't continue having breathing issues. Definitely
let us know how he is progressing. If the clicking & excess saliva continue, you will have
to do some medications but it sounds like you are getting prepared.
Sure, I can help with the nebulization doses, amounts, frequency, etc for you.
Has he had much of an appetite still? I hope he keeps that up anyway.
You are right, the Reptaid is very strong & has been effective for a lot of people. Do use
with caution since he is so small & young.

Tracie


Hi Tracie,

Can I nebulize Baytril/enrofloxacin? When I bought the 2.5% oral concentration, I also bought the generic at 10% (100mg/1ml). The 2.5% comes in a tiny bottle that I want to reserve for orals, but the 10% comes in a 3.4oz bottle. Plenty to spare, I hope.

If I can nebulize the 10% concentration, how should I start?

I'll start looking for a vaporizer, not a humidifier. I'm thinking warm steam is better. Or do nebulizers blow out warm steam, too?

I'm beginning to think there is a shortage of F10 SC going on. All websites are out of the smaller bottles, including Amazon. Makes me worry the larger 1L bottles will be out soon, too. Is something going on in S. Africa where it's produced? Or is this possibly a(n) (more) embargoed item now? Speculating here. Maybe it's time to stock up.

~Nikki
Mama to 3 precious dragons
Kammie~because she's camoflauged
Kamikaze~because he's crazy!
Kali~Greek for 'good,' because she's so sweet
moth3rofdragons
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Re: URI in Baby Beardie?

Postby Drache613 » Sat Aug 31, 2019 2:57 pm

Hello Nikki,

You can nebulize using Baytril. You can use 10mg per 1ml. It should last for a 10-15 minute
treatment. If needed, you can do a treatment, twice per day.
How is your dragon doing?
Nebulizers blow out mist but not sure if they would blow out warm steam, etc. A vaporizer would
probably be fine, as long as you have a little chamber to put your dragon in for treatment.
There are things on the market that have become harder to find. It probably has something to do
with the trade wars with China, etc.

Let us know how things are going.

Tracie
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Re: URI in Baby Beardie?

Postby moth3rofdragons » Sat Aug 31, 2019 3:14 pm

Drache613 wrote:Hello Nikki,

You can nebulize using Baytril. You can use 10mg per 1ml. It should last for a 10-15 minute
treatment. If needed, you can do a treatment, twice per day.
How is your dragon doing?
Nebulizers blow out mist but not sure if they would blow out warm steam, etc. A vaporizer would
probably be fine, as long as you have a little chamber to put your dragon in for treatment.
There are things on the market that have become harder to find. It probably has something to do
with the trade wars with China, etc.

Let us know how things are going.

Tracie


Hi Tracie,

Thank you for the ratio. 10mg to 1ml of water. Do I need to put salt or anything in the water?

I bought a vaporizer today, but realized it's too cumbersome. I've got a nebulizer coming in by tonight from Amazon.

He is really struggling to breathe and eating very little. I tried giving him some Carnivore Care, but he's not interested. I'm concerned he's going to dehydrate. He doesn't like water droplets from a syringe. Should I completely avoid a bath in hopes that he'll drink? Or will a short bath be OK?

Though it's been 2/3 days since I've started the Repticare, he does not seem to be improving. He takes very few breaths at night, with big spaces of time before the next breath.

Should I start the oral Baytril, too, or just stick with nebulization first?

Thanks again for your time, Tracie.

~Nikki
Mama to 3 precious dragons
Kammie~because she's camoflauged
Kamikaze~because he's crazy!
Kali~Greek for 'good,' because she's so sweet
moth3rofdragons
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