mercury vapor uvb bulb and fluorescent uvb work together

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mercury vapor uvb bulb and fluorescent uvb work together

Postby rubymiss » Sun Jul 21, 2019 5:40 pm

Hi everyone
I got a new tank for my lady bearded dragon, she grow so fast, so I got a big tank to let her run around ,which is wide:61" deep:28" high:24". I have a mercury vapor uvb10.0 (100W) heating bulb and a long fluorescent 46"(12% uvb, 30% uva)uvb lamp to cover my tank.I hope to give her enough heat and uvb, but I don't know would it be too strong to put those lamps together, I mean too much uv radiation for bearded dragon, would it blind her!? :oops: the other question is can I build long fluorescent uvb lamp inside the tank(under the lid), or its better to be above the lid so it wont be too bright? :?: :?: a lot questions about lightening.....its my first time to have bearded dragon,I hope to give her the best as I can! Need your opinion!Thanks a lot. Ruby
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Re: mercury vapor uvb bulb and fluorescent uvb work together

Postby kingofnobbys » Sun Jul 21, 2019 9:20 pm

rubymiss wrote:Hi everyone
I got a new tank for my lady bearded dragon, she grow so fast, so I got a big tank to let her run around ,which is wide:61" deep:28" high:24". I have a mercury vapor uvb10.0 (100W) heating bulb and a long fluorescent 46"(12% uvb, 30% uva)uvb lamp to cover my tank.I hope to give her enough heat and uvb, but I don't know would it be too strong to put those lamps together,

No it will be fine , many folks have both a MVB of appropriate wattage to provide the correct basking spot temperature and correct warm zone temperature.

Performance of an Arcadia 100W MVB is shown below :
Image
It can be seen that the area under the globe at the basking distance that has appropriate levels of UV is very constrained , hence the use of a 12%UVB T5HO tube is warranted because the drop off in UVA & UVB as the dragon moves away from the centerline of the MVB's beam is exponentially steep.
If the dragon is 20cm off the centerline of the MVB's beam at 30cm under the MVB , the UV it's receiving is very low.

Just as many use domestic (dimmable via a thermostat) floodglobes (halogens, dichrotics and incandescents) in leu of MVBs , mainly because MVBs wont work controlled by a dimming thermostat , and the domestic floodglobes are considerably cheaper than the equivalent wattage in a MVB.
Is a very good approach to provide a T5ho 12% tube in a reflector hood that covers the warmer 2/3 of the tank to ensure the dragon has access to appropriately intense levels of UVA & UVB at the basking spot and in the warmer 2/3 of the tank , and low levels of UV in the cool zone.
I suggest you provide a warm and a cool hide since you have the space in your big tank. This will ensure the dragon can choose exactly the temperature and UV flux levels it want from very intense ( UVB flux about 200 microW / sq.cm ) to about 1/3 this and lower in the UV shade zone / cool zone , even zero UV under the hides if it wants).

I mean too much uv radiation for bearded dragon, would it blind her!? :oops: the other question is can I build long fluorescent uvb lamp inside the tank(under the lid), or its better to be above the lid so it wont be too bright? :?: :?: a lot questions about lightening.....its my first time to have bearded dragon,I hope to give her the best as I can! Need your opinion!Thanks a lot. Ruby


In the wild bearded dragons are routinely out and about foraging , looking for mates , basking (for short periods throughout the day) in UV levels that are considered as EXTREME and they are fine and adapted for this.
Bearded dragons have the unique ability to adjust the UV albedo of their skin at will , unlike mammals who's exposed skin will just sunburn.

You are very unlikely with a good quality MVB ( from Arcadia Reptile or Zoo Med or Exo Terra ) or a good quality T5ho 12%UVB tube from Arcadia Reptile to cause any problems with your dragons sight. These kind of issues come about when people cheap-out and buy very poor quality elcheapo cloned MVB's and compact UVB globes and T8 and T5HO tubes made in places like china and rebranded as "shop brands" / budget brands.


Here is some guidance for you version for pogona vitticeps ie
Image
which happens to give UVB flux.
Which indicated the appropriate distance from their 12% UVB T5ho tube was 30cm (as well) based on the tech specs for their 12%UVB T5ho tubes summarized succinctly in an easy to read graphical form by me and shown below for their tubes in a good reflector hood
Image
and this is how to use the charts :
Image
Last edited by kingofnobbys on Sat Jul 27, 2019 12:23 am, edited 3 times in total.
CBDs: Cleopatra & Caesar born 28Jan19.
Puff (RIP 10Dec15),Rex (RIP 16Mar17),Toothless (RIP 26Nov17).Peppa (RIP 22Mar19).
EBTSs : George & Mildred (born july 2010).
EWSs : new rescues Gutzy (F) 27Sep19, juvenile Cheakie (M) 21Oct19
Fluffy (F) rescued injured by lawnwacker 14Nov17, Wriggles (F) - injured rescue, over 8 yrs old, RIP 2Feb16 old age. Lucky juvenile (M) - cat attack rescue (lost r-eye, broken r-lower jaw), fatal SI RIP 21Jul2010.
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Re: mercury vapor uvb bulb and fluorescent uvb work together

Postby claudiusx » Mon Jul 22, 2019 7:13 am

MVBs and fluorescent bulbs can work in larger tanks.

But that's only because a larger tank gives you the room you need to provide a proper gradient of uv from the basking zone to the cool zone.

What nob fails to mention simply because he doesnt agree with it is that lighting experts and herp experts recommend areas in the tank with little to no uv radiation so that the animal can escape the rays if it wants to. You shouldn't have to force an animal into a hide to escape the rays as nob suggests.

You can see in the first chart that he posted, the manufacture put lines in the chart to show you a good range for that bulb. And that range includes the low uv areas. Because unlike nob, the manufacturers understand the importance of a gradient and levels of 0 in the tank.

Nob also uses outdated charts which is borderline unethical imo. He is aware the manufacture has changed their recommendations yet he continues to use the old charts.

Unfortunstely, in your case, your tube is almost as long as your tank. Even though your tank is quite tall, there most likely isnt going to be an area where your uv gradient can get to 0. If your tube ran only half the tank or so, that would be better.

Here is arcadias new recommendation for our dragons.
[Click image to enlarge]

Note how they recomend a uvi of 4-6 only at the basking area, with a gradient down to 0 on the cool end of the tank. This is what leading lighting experts suggest, this is what manufactures have suggested, and it's what has worked for decades.

If you can make your mvb work with the tube, that is perfectly ok. Just dont be misguided in the thinking that your whole tank needs high levels of uv throughout it you need uv at the basking surface, and a gradient of decreasing uv to 0 throughout the rest of the tank. UV is harmful, just as much as it helpful, and our dragons know when they need an escape, make sure you're providing that option.

-Brandon
Follow along with all my beardies. Check out my thread here!: Claud's Crew
P.S. We have lots of pictures ;)
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Re: mercury vapor uvb bulb and fluorescent uvb work together

Postby Drache613 » Mon Jul 22, 2019 3:29 pm

Moved by Moderator from General to Enclosures
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Re: mercury vapor uvb bulb and fluorescent uvb work together

Postby kingofnobbys » Tue Jul 23, 2019 12:26 am

claudiusx wrote:MVBs and fluorescent bulbs can work in larger tanks.

But that's only because a larger tank gives you the room you need to provide a proper gradient of uv from the basking zone to the cool zone.

What nob fails to mention simply because he doesnt agree with it is that lighting experts and herp experts recommend areas in the tank with little to no uv radiation so that the animal can escape the rays if it wants to. You shouldn't have to force an animal into a hide to escape the rays as nob suggests.

<<< Going to an area of zero unshaded UV and going under a hide achieves exactly the same thing regards going to zero UV .

<<< One of the reasons we all provide hides to our pet lizards is this as well providing them a place where they have privacy from prying human (and other pet's) eyes.





You can see in the first chart that he posted, the manufacture put lines in the chart to show you a good range for that bulb. And that range includes the low uv areas. Because unlike nob, the manufacturers understand the importance of a gradient and levels of 0 in the tank.

Nob also uses outdated charts which is borderline unethical imo. He is aware the manufacture has changed their recommendations yet he continues to use the old charts.

<<< please stop MISREPRESENTING my option and making FALSE claims, there is copious proof on this board in many posts that what you are claiming is incorrect , all available for EVERYONE to see IN CONTEXT.
Brandon , your baiting has to stop as does the personal attacks.

If you feel the need to contribute , keep it factual and directly on the question asked , keep personalities out of it. ( Jeez now I'm coming over like a mod …. apologies to the mods .)



Unfortunstely, in your case, your tube is almost as long as your tank. Even though your tank is quite tall, there most likely isnt going to be an area where your uv gradient can get to 0. If your tube ran only half the tank or so, that would be better.

OP stated VERY CLEARLY
wide:61" deep:28" high:24". I have a mercury vapor uvb10.0 (100W) heating bulb and a long fluorescent 46"(12% uvb, 30% uva)uvb lamp to cover my tank

So his tube is 46/61 of the length of his tank (75%) which is fine PROVIDED it has one end right next the MVB ( behind or infront of it like this PLAN VIEW )
Image

If it's like this
Image
Image
A picture says a 1000 words and shows everything succinctly and clearly.

It is likely the UV spread from the end of the T5HO will create a low UV zone (perhaps even a zone at very close to zero UV). If the UV tube is more than 12 inches from the cold end of the tank , the UV in the last 8 inches will be very low (near zero). This can be confirmed by looking at the iso-irradiance charts published here http://www.uvguide.co.uk/fluorescenttub ... rtests.htm
that look like this :
Image

Of cause Brandon is welcome to take some measurements using a Solarmeter and check this or disprove this.

If the OP can tell us how from the cool end of the T5HO tube and it's reflector hood is from the end of this tank it will not be a huge task checking the UV iso-irradiation charts and checking the level of UV at the cold end of the tank the UV will be OK if a good gradient is provided from basking spot (HIGH) to cool zone (LOW) as indicated already, a hide will help , but better off rearranging the lighting..


Here is arcadias new recommendation for our dragons.
[Click image to enlarge]

Note how they recomend a uvi of 4-6 only at the basking area, with a gradient down to 0 on the cool end of the tank. This is what leading lighting experts suggest, this is what manufactures have suggested, and it's what has worked for decades.

>>> clearly shows in the new guide that a 24 inch tall tank requires a T5HO 14%UVB in a reflector hood to produce adequate UV at both the basking spot and in the cool zone.

If you can make your mvb work with the tube, that is perfectly ok. Just dont be misguided in the thinking that your whole tank needs high levels of uv throughout it you need uv at the basking surface, and a gradient of decreasing uv to 0 throughout the rest of the tank. UV is harmful, just as much as it helpful, and our dragons know when they need an escape, make sure you're providing that option.

-Brandon
Last edited by kingofnobbys on Thu Jul 25, 2019 4:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.
CBDs: Cleopatra & Caesar born 28Jan19.
Puff (RIP 10Dec15),Rex (RIP 16Mar17),Toothless (RIP 26Nov17).Peppa (RIP 22Mar19).
EBTSs : George & Mildred (born july 2010).
EWSs : new rescues Gutzy (F) 27Sep19, juvenile Cheakie (M) 21Oct19
Fluffy (F) rescued injured by lawnwacker 14Nov17, Wriggles (F) - injured rescue, over 8 yrs old, RIP 2Feb16 old age. Lucky juvenile (M) - cat attack rescue (lost r-eye, broken r-lower jaw), fatal SI RIP 21Jul2010.
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Re: mercury vapor uvb bulb and fluorescent uvb work together

Postby claudiusx » Tue Jul 23, 2019 7:51 am

Oh boy wow. I'm very sorry you feel attacked. I didnt think letting the op know that you were using outdated charts and old recommendations was going to be interpreted as a personal attack in your eyes.
Sorry you feel that way but letting someone know old recommendations are being thrown around is far from an attack. I think you just took it too personally.

OP, my recommendations and advice on reptile lighting all come from DR. Frances baines. The leading expert in lighting for herps and mammals. It doesnt come from charts I put together but from a drs. Research over decades of study and experiment.

Once again, sorry your thread had to get muddled up because nob misunderstood intentions of my post. Simply education, not attacks :)

-Brandon
Follow along with all my beardies. Check out my thread here!: Claud's Crew
P.S. We have lots of pictures ;)
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Re: mercury vapor uvb bulb and fluorescent uvb work together

Postby Drache613 » Tue Jul 23, 2019 11:14 pm

This arguing back & forth is extremely detrimental to the cause here!
I highly suggest since you two cannot get along that you do not post on any thread that the
other one is on. Things are treading on a very fine line right now!

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Re: mercury vapor uvb bulb and fluorescent uvb work together

Postby rubymiss » Wed Jul 24, 2019 10:31 am

Thank you guys for charts and numbers, a lot of useful information, I love this place because you are professional and experienced dragon owner, not like some other website people just write some of owner's feeling about dragon. I am building my tank now and I will apply your opinion about position of MVB AND T5 ho, and distance from light to dragon.and high low uv area and proper hiding places,give my baby as much options as I can.Ill show you guys picture after I finish building it. Thank you again for the knowledge and sharing! really appreciate it! :D :D :study: :study: RUBY
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Re: mercury vapor uvb bulb and fluorescent uvb work together

Postby CooperDragon » Wed Jul 24, 2019 11:12 am

I'm looking forward to seeing what you come up with!
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Re: mercury vapor uvb bulb and fluorescent uvb work together

Postby kingofnobbys » Thu Jul 25, 2019 2:36 am

Here to help.

Your dragon sounds like it's going to have a great home.
CBDs: Cleopatra & Caesar born 28Jan19.
Puff (RIP 10Dec15),Rex (RIP 16Mar17),Toothless (RIP 26Nov17).Peppa (RIP 22Mar19).
EBTSs : George & Mildred (born july 2010).
EWSs : new rescues Gutzy (F) 27Sep19, juvenile Cheakie (M) 21Oct19
Fluffy (F) rescued injured by lawnwacker 14Nov17, Wriggles (F) - injured rescue, over 8 yrs old, RIP 2Feb16 old age. Lucky juvenile (M) - cat attack rescue (lost r-eye, broken r-lower jaw), fatal SI RIP 21Jul2010.
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