Bearded Dragon Acting Drunk

This forum is for urgent health concerns, where your beardie seems very ill and you need immediate help!

Bearded Dragon Acting Drunk

Postby AlyssaR96 » Fri Jul 19, 2019 2:34 pm

Hi all! First off thank you so much for taking time to read though and hopefully help me with my Beardie, Tuukka.
We got Tuukka from a reptile show about 4 months ago (assuming that was the best place to buy a beardie) he has been doing awesome until about 1 week ago. I am a veterinary technician at a small animal practice and have been trouble shooting his issue with doctors at my work but wanted to post here and see if anyone had any good input or could help.

Age: Tuukka is under 1 year (~9 months)

Size: ~12 inches from head to tail

Temps : 75-85 degrees on the cool side(with a hide and hammock) and 100-110 degrees on the hot side with a climbing stick for him to climb up.

Substrate: Repti carpet for the majority , now paper towels

Tank size: 40 gallon breeder (i think that’s the right term)

All lights are correct UVB, and he can receive it from anywhere in his cage

Diet: Dubia roaches, occasional crickets , mealworms, sometimes horn worms as treats. Fresh salad daily ( Collard greens, cucumber, romaine lettuce sometimes, carrots , zucchini , summer squash , very rarely strawberry or blueberry) and he is very good at eating his salads

**Every meal is dusted with calcium powder + D3**
We also give him a soak every 3 days.

Issues with Tuukka started about 1 week ago. We would go in his room and notice that he was on his back. We originally thought it was no big deal and maybe thought he was getting clumsy. When we first noted him on his back it looked like he had pooped in his large corner water bowl and had a hard time getting out and fell. So we removed the corner water bowl and put a new one with low sides so he could very easily enter/exit. He did not show any other abnormal behavior at the time.
When we found him on his back a second time we were very concerned. He was overturned by his hide log. We then removed everything from the bottom of his cage, cut his nails and removed the carpet and replaced it with paper towels. This was a recommendation from a vet at my work, thinking his nails were possibly too long and he was getting stuck in the carpet.
We then started noticing him acting slightly lethargic, but still very alert. After troubleshooting with doctors at my work we assumed that he was getting too much calcium. Immediately stopped dusting everything we fed him , and cut calcium out. The plan was to wait a week, see how he does and possibly take an X-ray and run a fecal.
We had thought Tuukka has gotten better, but found him on his back again in his water(we now removed the bowl for safety) we have been giving him dilute Gatorade for hydration, feeding him as normal(minus powder) and keeping a very close eye on him. He has continued to keep his appetite, and has been very alert (as normal). When he walks it seems like he is very off balance , and cannot correct himself when he’s on his back. I do have a very good video of his behavior but I’m not exactly sure where to post. Poops have been normal.
Any input/help would be greatly appreciated.

Thank you- Tuukka and his very worried parents.
AlyssaR96
Newbie Poster
 
Posts: 17
Joined: Thu Jul 18, 2019 12:42 pm
- Advertisement -
- Advertisement -

Re: Bearded Dragon Acting Drunk

Postby claudiusx » Fri Jul 19, 2019 2:50 pm

Hi there,

Lets see if we can help.
You were very detailed, but if you don't mind answering a few more questions that would help :)

Firstly, I know you said his uvb is fine, but can you be more specific? What brand is it? Is it a linear tube, a compact, or an MVB?
After you tell us more about what type you have, there will be more questions in regards to UVB.
100-110 is ok, but what are you measuring your temperatures with?

12 inches is very small for a 9 month old. So pair that with the symptoms that you are describing and you are left with 2 or 3 possible diagnosises
1. MBD
2. Adenovirus
3. (possibly) malnourishment.

Have you tested for ADV at work yet?

Finding a dragon on it's back is never a good sign, and its almost always a sign that their is a neurological issue going on, which is what makes MBD or ADV the most likely issues.

Could you post a picture of his setup?

-Brandon
User avatar
claudiusx
BD.org Sicko
 
Posts: 14462
Joined: Tue Jun 02, 2009 3:44 pm
Location: California

Re: Bearded Dragon Acting Drunk

Postby AlyssaR96 » Sat Jul 20, 2019 10:07 am

claudiusx wrote:Hi there,

Lets see if we can help.
You were very detailed, but if you don't mind answering a few more questions that would help :)

Firstly, I know you said his uvb is fine, but can you be more specific? What brand is it? Is it a linear tube, a compact, or an MVB?
After you tell us more about what type you have, there will be more questions in regards to UVB.
100-110 is ok, but what are you measuring your temperatures with?

12 inches is very small for a 9 month old. So pair that with the symptoms that you are describing and you are left with 2 or 3 possible diagnosises
1. MBD
2. Adenovirus
3. (possibly) malnourishment.

Have you tested for ADV at work yet?

Finding a dragon on it's back is never a good sign, and its almost always a sign that their is a neurological issue going on, which is what makes MBD or ADV the most likely issues.

Could you post a picture of his setup?

-Brandon



I use two compact UVB bulbs (to cover the length of the cage) i just got from the pet store(unsure of brand) they are both less than 6 months old.
Temp. Is measured with stick on thermometers , and also a point thermometer.
I have not run any tests, i would love to do lab work but I have no idea how / where to draw from a reptile and don’t want to hurt him in any way.
If it is MBD , do you know what the treatment would be ? I did get a suggestion from the breeder after messaging her to get liquid vitamin B for him. She said the video i sent her looks like a typical deficiency, and suggested that the tank may be too tall for the UVB to reach him. He does spend a lot of his day hanging out at the top of his climb log so i just assumed he was absorbing plenty of UVB.
I have a great example video of his behavior but again unsure how to post that here.
AlyssaR96
Newbie Poster
 
Posts: 17
Joined: Thu Jul 18, 2019 12:42 pm

Re: Bearded Dragon Acting Drunk

Postby claudiusx » Sat Jul 20, 2019 10:20 am

Thanks for getting back:)

Unfortunately then, based on what you are using for UVB, I'd say it's most likely due to a calcium deficiency. This causes the exact behavior that you are describing. Of course a couple things can, but i'd be more inclined to believe its MBD/Calcium deficiency before a b vitamin deficiency.

The problems with coils, is they produce very short wavelengths, and the further the bulb is, the steeper the uv drops off. You would need your dragon to be only a few inches away from it for proper uv levels. And of course, thats not really feasible, which is why we always suggest dumping the compact bulbs and upgrading to the long tubes.
I would highly suggest getting the reptisun 10.0 t5 HO. You will need a new fixture to house this bulb too, as it's a long fluorescent. That would be the first course of action, and I would restart the calcium dusting. It just goes to show you that all the fear over the D3 in the supplement is ill-founded. I've always said the amount of D3 in those supplements is so small. And this is an example of that. Your dragon most likely hasn't been able to absorb calcium properly due to not having enough D3 in the system, from supps or lighting.

That being said, It's really only a best guess when you are giving a diagnosis over the internet. Without bloodwork thats all it is. But, I will tell you without a doubt that upgrading your lighting will have nothing but positive effects.

The effects of MBD can't really be reversed, but the neurological issues usually do go away. And MBD has a much better prognosis than ADV usually does, so that's good.

AlyssaR96 wrote:f it is MBD , do you know what the treatment would be ?

Upgrding lighting, and usually a vet would prescribe liquid calcium. I'm not a vet, but upgrading your lighting, and continuing to dust will do no harm. I will ask Tracie to come stop by and offer you some advice, if anything to get a second opinion or perhaps see something I'm not seeing. She is very knowledgeable when it comes to this type of stuff.

-Brandon
User avatar
claudiusx
BD.org Sicko
 
Posts: 14462
Joined: Tue Jun 02, 2009 3:44 pm
Location: California

Re: Bearded Dragon Acting Drunk

Postby AlyssaR96 » Sat Jul 20, 2019 10:30 am

I feel so guilty for basically neglecting his needs and listening to just one person. I thought the lights would be completely fine as long as i had two. I’m going out today and buying a new one now
I’m really scared for him, it seems like signs are a lot worse today. Is there anything i can do to help him immediately or is it just a wait and see at this point ?
AlyssaR96
Newbie Poster
 
Posts: 17
Joined: Thu Jul 18, 2019 12:42 pm

Re: Bearded Dragon Acting Drunk

Postby claudiusx » Sat Jul 20, 2019 10:42 am

If the weather permits, getting him outside for some natural sunlight will help until you can get your lights. If you have any questions before buying, let us know. Sometimes the packaging can be tricky and it's confusing what you're actually buying.

I think most petshops carry the reptisun 10.0 t5 HO bulbs now, but if they don't you could get the regular 10.0 tube.

The difference is the High Output bulb is a t5 bulb, which uses a t5 fixture. The regular 10.0 is a t8 bulb which uses a t8 fixture. Sometimes petstores have a t5 reptisun kit which includes the fixture, but it usually comes with a 5.0 bulb instead of a 10.0. I know it's all a bit confusing but thats the nature of the petstores sometimes. You cn buy them online too if you have no luck locally.
I messaged Tracie, so hopefully she will stop by later tonight to give you some more advice.

-Brandon
User avatar
claudiusx
BD.org Sicko
 
Posts: 14462
Joined: Tue Jun 02, 2009 3:44 pm
Location: California

Re: Bearded Dragon Acting Drunk

Postby claudiusx » Sat Jul 20, 2019 10:43 am

And please don't feel guilty, their is a lot of misinformation out there. Petstores care about making money, not educating, and some breeders are the same way.

All we care about is healthy dragons here. And we are here to help :)

-Brandon
User avatar
claudiusx
BD.org Sicko
 
Posts: 14462
Joined: Tue Jun 02, 2009 3:44 pm
Location: California

Re: Bearded Dragon Acting Drunk

Postby AlyssaR96 » Sat Jul 20, 2019 11:19 am

claudiusx wrote:And please don't feel guilty, their is a lot of misinformation out there. Petstores care about making money, not educating, and some breeders are the same way.

All we care about is healthy dragons here. And we are here to help :)

-Brandon



Thank you SO much. I’m on my way now to the pet store to buy some new lights
AlyssaR96
Newbie Poster
 
Posts: 17
Joined: Thu Jul 18, 2019 12:42 pm
- Advertisement -
- Advertisement -

Re: Bearded Dragon Acting Drunk

Postby AlyssaR96 » Sat Jul 20, 2019 11:56 am

Hi!
I just bought the Zilla Slimline 18” T8 fixture that came with the Desert 50 UVB T8 fluorescent bulb
This is all they had at the pet store near me. Do you think i could use the bulb included until something I ordered online came in?
Also , what is the best bulb to use for this fixture ?
Thanks so much again, I really appreciate all the help
AlyssaR96
Newbie Poster
 
Posts: 17
Joined: Thu Jul 18, 2019 12:42 pm

Re: Bearded Dragon Acting Drunk

Postby KarrieRee » Sat Jul 20, 2019 12:35 pm

yes till the new one comes --- go to www.pangeareptiles.com ----------- there you can get a T 8 bulb Reptisun 10.0 not the 5.0 --- $21 -- it will fit that fixture - this is the cheapest place I have found it --- Petsmart are more
Karrie
KarrieRee
Extreme Poster
 
Posts: 3030
Joined: Sat Mar 17, 2018 7:24 am

Re: Bearded Dragon Acting Drunk

Postby AlyssaR96 » Sat Jul 20, 2019 12:43 pm

I also just set the light right on top of the mesh, should i mount it inside the cage somehow ?
AlyssaR96
Newbie Poster
 
Posts: 17
Joined: Thu Jul 18, 2019 12:42 pm

Re: Bearded Dragon Acting Drunk

Postby KarrieRee » Sat Jul 20, 2019 12:51 pm

yes get it in the tank approx 6-8 inches -- its better than the coils but not as good as the Reptisun--- please order that or pick it up ---- and leave the cover off the bulb you want it exposed for the best UVB possible --- ---- command Velcro fasteners- picture hanging wire – plastic zip ties
https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Nylon-Cable ... 1991102297

[Click image to enlarge]

Karrie
KarrieRee
Extreme Poster
 
Posts: 3030
Joined: Sat Mar 17, 2018 7:24 am

Re: Bearded Dragon Acting Drunk

Postby Drache613 » Sat Jul 20, 2019 5:00 pm

Hello,,

So sorry for the delay, how is your dragon doing today?
I do agree with Brandon with diagnosis. While it could be Adeno perhaps, but probably not
as likely as a calcium deficiency.
Is your dragon a specialized morph, such as a Hypo-trans, a leatherback or silkback? I ask
because a lot of the specialized morphs are highly line or inbred which causes an array of
health problems. Most of the colonies are infected with Adeno unfortunately.
It definitely is not your fault though, because the compact/coil lights are pushed for retail sales
& sold along with the start up kits when a dragon is sold. Honestly, I wish that they would just
stop selling them altogether.
So you purchased the Zilla tube today? As Brandon suggested, the Zilla is ok, but really the
Reptisun 10 T5 or the Arcadia D3 12% or 14% T5 tubes are better & put out a more even &
high quality of UVB emission. So, I also would recommend upgrading to one of those when
you can.
Can you get him on a liquid calcium too?
Are you planning on doing a blood test on him or not?

Let us know how he is doing.
Tracie
User avatar
Drache613
Moderator
Moderator
 
Posts: 38383
Joined: Fri Feb 10, 2006 9:33 pm
Location: May, Texas

Re: Bearded Dragon Acting Drunk

Postby AlyssaR96 » Sat Jul 20, 2019 5:25 pm

Drache613 wrote:Hello,,

So sorry for the delay, how is your dragon doing today?
I do agree with Brandon with diagnosis. While it could be Adeno perhaps, but probably not
as likely as a calcium deficiency.
Is your dragon a specialized morph, such as a Hypo-trans, a leatherback or silkback? I ask
because a lot of the specialized morphs are highly line or inbred which causes an array of
health problems. Most of the colonies are infected with Adeno unfortunately.
It definitely is not your fault though, because the compact/coil lights are pushed for retail sales
& sold along with the start up kits when a dragon is sold. Honestly, I wish that they would just
stop selling them altogether.
So you purchased the Zilla tube today? As Brandon suggested, the Zilla is ok, but really the
Reptisun 10 T5 or the Arcadia D3 12% or 14% T5 tubes are better & put out a more even &
high quality of UVB emission. So, I also would recommend upgrading to one of those when
you can.
Can you get him on a liquid calcium too?
Are you planning on doing a blood test on him or not?

Let us know how he is doing.
Tracie


Hi Tracie!
I’d have to look at his exact name, but he is a special morph i think. It was something with het/hypo with blue bars.
I’m going to purchase a better bulb, and we also bought a cage that was the same size length wise but shorter and opens in the front instead of having a screen at the top. Right now I have the light fixture set up just resting on top of the mesh. I’m not sure how well I would be able to mount the light on the inside of the cage. I was reading that the stronger UVB lights can go on top of the mesh- any truth to this ?
I would love to do bloodwork but like I said I’m a small animal practice technician, so drawing blood on reptiles is completely foreign to me. Give me anything furry , but I'm totally lost on reptiles. I could very easily run a fecal, and take radiographs and have them sent for professional interpretation from a veterinary radiologist that could probably interpret reptile X-rays. There are a few exotic vets in my area, but no openings anytime soon. I was considering going in and asking if they could draw blood and send me home with the tubes but i don’t want to insult anyone or step on anyone’s toes (just because i have the ability to send lab work out at cost). I did not buy liquid calcium but bought a multi vitamin and gave him several dusted mealworms today, and let him soak up some sun on my deck (supervised)for 1-2 hours.
I feel so bad for the little guy, it’s not his fault he’s a pet and I owe it to him to give him the best of everything he needs. I bought him from a reptile show, so it’s very possible he might have another virus. Today was definitely his worse day yet , so we’re both just a little freaked out and hoping we can get him right ASAP.
AlyssaR96
Newbie Poster
 
Posts: 17
Joined: Thu Jul 18, 2019 12:42 pm

Re: Bearded Dragon Acting Drunk

Postby AlyssaR96 » Sat Jul 20, 2019 5:35 pm

I was going to purchase this light on amazon (because of the 2 day shipping) is this ok??
LUCKY HERP 10.0 Fluorescent Desert Terrarium Lamp,T8,15 Watt 18" https://www.amazon.com/dp/B078WTTCB3/re ... mDb4WFFQVY
AlyssaR96
Newbie Poster
 
Posts: 17
Joined: Thu Jul 18, 2019 12:42 pm
- Advertisement -
- Advertisement -

Next

Return to Beardie ER

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google Adsense [Bot], Ninjasmom16