Help me decide on lighting

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Help me decide on lighting

Postby Ben10dragon » Tue Jun 25, 2019 6:32 pm

Hi, I'm new here, this is my first post. I've been making a foam rock background verrry sllloooowly for my beardie Ben10 for the past 6 months so I could get him into a bigger enclosure. Apparently I took too long because he passed away last week. He was pretty old (12ish) and it wasn't exactly unexpected but sad none the less.
Anyway, I am still going to finish the foam rock background as we will be getting a new baby beardie soon that will eventually go in this bigger tank (it's L6ft x W18in x H~24in) . I've been working on grouting and have a few layers done so I put it back in the tank to check the fit and realized I may not have left myself enough room to install a UVB fixture.
[Click image to enlarge]

If this picture worked you can see I made the basking spot pretty high up and it is only 8 inches from the mesh top. I don't think I can safely mount a tube light fixture in the 2 3/4 inches of glass showing between the top of the foam rock and the lid. Can I? I had originally planned on setting a fixture above the lid but after reading here I learned that isn't usually ideal.
What do you think my best option would be for the UVB bulb/fixture/placement?
Thanks!
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Re: Help me decide on lighting

Postby claudiusx » Tue Jun 25, 2019 6:56 pm

In your case I'd use one of the stronger t% bulbs such as the reptisun t5 HO on top of the mesh. The mesh will cut down on some of the uvb output which is good in this case since you wouldn't want it only 8 inches from your basking surface.

-Brandon
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Re: Help me decide on lighting

Postby Ben10dragon » Wed Jun 26, 2019 3:48 am

claudiusx wrote:In your case I'd use one of the stronger t% bulbs such as the reptisun t5 HO on top of the mesh. The mesh will cut down on some of the uvb output which is good in this case since you wouldn't want it only 8 inches from your basking surface.

-Brandon



Thanks!
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Re: Help me decide on lighting

Postby kingofnobbys » Wed Jun 26, 2019 5:25 am

Do right first time . No hand wavey wofflely guidance is here :
viewtopic.php?f=34&t=235611
viewtopic.php?f=34&t=249112&p=1888963&hilit=T5ho+14%25UVB#p1888963
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Re: Help me decide on lighting

Postby claudiusx » Wed Jun 26, 2019 8:50 am

Since his advice starkly disagrees with mine, how about you take it from Dr. Francis Baines, a person who has dedicated her whole life basically to herp lighting with an emphasis on UV exposures. I've worked with Francis on a couple different occasions and can undoubtedly tell you, that my recommendations line up with what she has recommended.

Here is a nice article you can read:
https://sites.google.com/site/thelizardmadness/lighting-guides
Note in the chart, when it comes to a reptisun 10.0 HO, on top of a screen, with a reflector, that even at 8 inches away, you are in dangerous UVI territory of 8. The article recommends dragons be housed with a basking UVI of somewhere between 3-5, with a gradient of UVI to 0 in the tank (much like you'd have a heat gradient of lower and lower heat, you want this with UV too).
In personal talks with Francis she has told me she believes that dragons (along with most other reptiles) would ideally be best suited with UVI levels of around 3.

This is why I gave you my recommendation.
Kings recommendation (based on his links) is to allow a dragon to get within 6 inches of a t5 tube with a reflector if it's on top of the mesh. Of course you can see from the Drs chart that this would give you a very dangerous UVI level of 11.

Unfortunately, most people don't realize that microW UVB / sq.cm DOES NOT = UVI. UVI is the important figure as it is more closely measuring the wavelengths that leads to VIT d3 synthesis. In theory, you could have a microW UVB / sq.cm of 200 like King suggests in all his threads, and still have little to no vit d3 synthesis occurring.
We have proof of this from testing different types of bulbs (poorly made vs. decent).
microW UVB / sq.cm DOES NOT = UVI and suggestions to hit a microW UVB / sq.cm number should be stopped now that we have access to devices that can measure UVI. Unless everyone is using the same exact bulb, one bulbs microW UVB / sq.cm will provide a different UVI than another bulbs.

If you are going to buy a UV meter, you should buy the solarmeter 6.5 which will measure UVI. And if you don't want to spend 200+ dollars on a tool that the average hobbyist doesn't need, then I suggest you pay attention to charts and data from people who study UV for a living provide, and follow their recommendations. Doing otherwise such as suggested above, can lead to skin issues, cancer, and other health problems.

UV is damaging. It only makes sense to provide just as much as needed, and not any more.

-Brandon
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Re: Help me decide on lighting

Postby Ben10dragon » Wed Jun 26, 2019 9:05 am

kingofnobbys wrote:Do right first time . No hand wavey wofflely guidance is here :
viewtopic.php?f=34&t=235611
viewtopic.php?f=34&t=249112&p=1888963&hilit=T5ho+14%25UVB#p1888963


Thanks!!
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Re: Help me decide on lighting

Postby Ben10dragon » Wed Jun 26, 2019 9:26 am

claudiusx wrote:Since his advice starkly disagrees with mine, how about you take it from Dr. Francis Baines, a person who has dedicated her whole life basically to herp lighting with an emphasis on UV exposures. I've worked with Francis on a couple different occasions and can undoubtedly tell you, that my recommendations line up with what she has recommended.

Here is a nice article you can read:
https://sites.google.com/site/thelizardmadness/lighting-guides
Note in the chart, when it comes to a reptisun 10.0 HO, on top of a screen, with a reflector, that even at 8 inches away, you are in dangerous UVI territory of 8. The article recommends dragons be housed with a basking UVI of somewhere between 3-5, with a gradient of UVI to 0 in the tank (much like you'd have a heat gradient of lower and lower heat, you want this with UV too).
In personal talks with Francis she has told me she believes that dragons (along with most other reptiles) would ideally be best suited with UVI levels of around 3.

This is why I gave you my recommendation.
Kings recommendation (based on his links) is to allow a dragon to get within 6 inches of a t5 tube with a reflector if it's on top of the mesh. Of course you can see from the Drs chart that this would give you a very dangerous UVI level of 11.

Unfortunately, most people don't realize that microW UVB / sq.cm DOES NOT = UVI. UVI is the important figure as it is more closely measuring the wavelengths that leads to VIT d3 synthesis. In theory, you could have a microW UVB / sq.cm of 200 like King suggests in all his threads, and still have little to no vit d3 synthesis occurring.
We have proof of this from testing different types of bulbs (poorly made vs. decent).
microW UVB / sq.cm DOES NOT = UVI and suggestions to hit a microW UVB / sq.cm number should be stopped now that we have access to devices that can measure UVI. Unless everyone is using the same exact bulb, one bulbs microW UVB / sq.cm will provide a different UVI than another bulbs.

If you are going to buy a UV meter, you should buy the solarmeter 6.5 which will measure UVI. And if you don't want to spend 200+ dollars on a tool that the average hobbyist doesn't need, then I suggest you pay attention to charts and data from people who study UV for a living provide, and follow their recommendations. Doing otherwise such as suggested above, can lead to skin issues, cancer, and other health problems.

UV is damaging. It only makes sense to provide just as much as needed, and not any more.

-Brandon


Thank you again for so much information. I think maybe what I'm going to do is get two 22 inch reptisun 10.0 t5's (for ease of opening the lid instead of one long bulb) and put them above the mesh. Do you happen to know if a sun blaster fixture work for putting it on top of the mesh? Its hard to tell from picture online if the bulb sits in far enough to have it set down.
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Re: Help me decide on lighting

Postby claudiusx » Wed Jun 26, 2019 9:55 am

The sunblasters won't sit flush on top of the screen. They really are ideal for mounting inside.
The zoomed fixture will, though its much more expensive.
https://www.amazon.com/Zoo-Med-26053-Reptisun-Terrarium/dp/B00AQU8F2O/ref=sr_1_3?keywords=reptisun+t5+fixture&qid=1561571625&s=lawn-garden&sr=1-3-catcorr

-Brandon
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Re: Help me decide on lighting

Postby CooperDragon » Wed Jun 26, 2019 10:39 am

These fixtures will sit flatly on top of a screen http://www.lightyourreptiles.com/22-t-5-ho-fixture-high-output-base-unit-no-bulb/ They have dual fixtures available as well.
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Re: Help me decide on lighting

Postby Ellentomologist » Wed Jun 26, 2019 11:40 am

Hiya welcome to the forums! (Even if you have been here a couple weeks)

Since you're obviously not above a little hard work (Holy beans is that background pretty!) I have another suggestion for you that might save you some cash - Cut the mesh where it would interfere with the UV. This would need a little elbow grease and persistence, but it might make selecting your UVB a little easier - don't have to factor in the screen interfering if the screen isn't there, right?

How you secure the fixture above the hole once it's cut would depend on your fixture though... My immediate suggestion would be to leave a "lip" of mesh that would catch the underside of it, then use a couple of extension springs to pull the fixture against the mesh. If it's the kind of fixture I've used, though, where the bulb can be replaced from the bottom and the casing doesn't heat up much, you might actually just silicone it onto the mesh above the hole.

Hope this helps,
-Ellen
About me: Recent graduate working at a research laboratory. Keep many invertebrates, reptiles, and amphibians, but only one BD named Guacamole. Love getting and giving book recommendations. HUGE DnD and tabletop RPG nerd. Sorry if I post the same info right after someone else does, I tend to open many tabs and not refresh.
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Re: Help me decide on lighting

Postby kingofnobbys » Wed Jun 26, 2019 5:56 pm

CooperDragon wrote:These fixtures will sit flatly on top of a screen http://www.lightyourreptiles.com/22-t-5-ho-fixture-high-output-base-unit-no-bulb/ They have dual fixtures available as well.



Just bare in mind a fine mesh will block 45% to 50% of all the UV from the tube if mounted ontop , cancelling out the benefit of a shaped focusing reflector or proper reflector hood.
Best to position the UVB tube under the mesh unless you opt for a much stronger T5ho 14%UVB available from Arcadia.

See this for the effect mesh : viewtopic.php?f=34&t=235210&p=1809330#p1809330
CBDs: Cleopatra & Caesar born 28Jan19.
Puff (RIP 10Dec15),Rex (RIP 16Mar17),Toothless (RIP 26Nov17).Peppa (RIP 22Mar19).
EBTSs : George & Mildred (born july 2010).
EWSs : Fluffy rescued injured by lawnwacker14Nov17, Gutzy 27Sep19.
Lucky - cat attack rescue, SI RIP 21Jul2010.
Wriggles - injured rescued, boss lizard, over 8 yrs old, RIP 2Feb16. .
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Re: Help me decide on lighting

Postby Ben10dragon » Thu Jun 27, 2019 9:29 am

Ellentomologist wrote:Hiya welcome to the forums! (Even if you have been here a couple weeks)

Since you're obviously not above a little hard work (Holy beans is that background pretty!) I have another suggestion for you that might save you some cash - Cut the mesh where it would interfere with the UV. This would need a little elbow grease and persistence, but it might make selecting your UVB a little easier - don't have to factor in the screen interfering if the screen isn't there, right?

How you secure the fixture above the hole once it's cut would depend on your fixture though... My immediate suggestion would be to leave a "lip" of mesh that would catch the underside of it, then use a couple of extension springs to pull the fixture against the mesh. If it's the kind of fixture I've used, though, where the bulb can be replaced from the bottom and the casing doesn't heat up much, you might actually just silicone it onto the mesh above the hole.

Hope this helps,
-Ellen


Hi! That is an idea I hadn't really thought of yet. I'm not crazy about the lid that came with the tank because it's really awkward so I could just modify it into something that works better or make my own.....hmmm...I'm kinda liking that idea. Then I can fix it to go with whatever lighting I want. Good thing we are getting a baby beardie so it will be a while before it's big enough for this tank because I work at snail speed.
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