2 Month old only eats maybe 1 to 2 roaches per feeding

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2 Month old only eats maybe 1 to 2 roaches per feeding

Postby btrippcsci » Tue May 14, 2019 9:57 am

Hey,

I have a 2 month old Beardie that struggles to eat like other dragons I have seen. He is two months old and I have tried multiple ways to feed him.

I have tried putting multiple Dubia in a container and then putting him inside it. In this case, he doesn't touch the roaches and acts almost as if he can't see them.

The other thing I have tried is putting them in the cage with him and he may get one of them if he sees them. But often times its like he doesnt see them or notice them.

He will occasionally eat 1 or two out of our hands but he struggles with the same problem even by hand feeding. It can be right in front of his face and he seems like either he is disinterested or that he cant see it.

The last option i have tried is to put the roaches in a glass bowl and stick it near him or put his hands on the edge of the jar to show him where it is and he has eaten 1 roach of the glass bowl this way.

The reason I think that he cant see that well is because when he does eat one, it is like he finally saw one moving and he charges after it to eat it, this makes me think that he does like them and want them, if he sees them.

Any suggestions?

Thanks,
Brandon
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Re: 2 Month old only eats maybe 1 to 2 roaches per feeding

Postby kmwilson042182 » Tue May 14, 2019 11:27 am

Can you go over your setup and post a picture of it and your dragon and also let us know what supplements you are using and the schedule. It is possible it could be a husbandry issue that can be corrected, or if everything is perfect there could be some other underlying issues. A 2 month old should be eagerly eating far more bugs than that. Also, have you tried any other feeders other than dubia? How long have you had him and is the not eating a recent thing? I have a 2 month old as well right now and he eats 25-30 dubias and 10 silkworms for breakfast and another 25-30 dubias or 40+ BSF larvae for dinner. He also usually gets a mid day snack of some bugs as well. They are all different, but I tell you this just for some sort of reference benchmark of what a diet for a 2 month old should resemble.

Kyle
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Re: 2 Month old only eats maybe 1 to 2 roaches per feeding

Postby btrippcsci » Tue May 14, 2019 6:42 pm

kmwilson042182 wrote:Can you go over your setup and post a picture of it and your dragon and also let us know what supplements you are using and the schedule. It is possible it could be a husbandry issue that can be corrected, or if everything is perfect there could be some other underlying issues. A 2 month old should be eagerly eating far more bugs than that. Also, have you tried any other feeders other than dubia? How long have you had him and is the not eating a recent thing? I have a 2 month old as well right now and he eats 25-30 dubias and 10 silkworms for breakfast and another 25-30 dubias or 40+ BSF larvae for dinner. He also usually gets a mid day snack of some bugs as well. They are all different, but I tell you this just for some sort of reference benchmark of what a diet for a 2 month old should resemble.

Kyle


We have a Carolina Customs 36 x 18 x 18 tank. Currently, have some bricks from lowes(maybe this is a problem" Substrate is paper towel but moving to butcher paper.

I have the 75w halogen with the reptisun 10 uvb bulb.
Lights go off around 10pm. On again around 8 AM. He gets fed aroudn 9AM and 6 - 7 PM.
I gut load with various veggies and stuff and then dust with calcium and the vitamins.

We have owned in for a week today. I have put a hornworm in there and small dubia, have tried a cricket or two as well and the same problem. He never seems to eat his greens either. He doesnt really go in his water bowl so i drip some water on him daily.

I will upload pictures in a shortly.
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Re: 2 Month old only eats maybe 1 to 2 roaches per feeding

Postby claudiusx » Tue May 14, 2019 7:18 pm

Hi there,

What Temps are you getting at your basking surface with that bulb? And how are you measuring?

Your reptisun is a long tube or is it a compact coil?

Most of the time, when a dragon charges environment they will go through relocation stress. This can last anywhere from a few days to a few weeks. It's very common for their appetite to be greatly affected during this time and shouldn't be considered alarming as long as husbandry is up to par. The appetite will slowly increase as the dragon gets more used to his new environment... assuming husbandry is proper like mentioned.

-Brandon
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Re: 2 Month old only eats maybe 1 to 2 roaches per feeding

Postby btrippcsci » Tue May 14, 2019 10:17 pm

claudiusx wrote:Hi there,

What Temps are you getting at your basking surface with that bulb? And how are you measuring?

Your reptisun is a long tube or is it a compact coil?

Most of the time, when a dragon charges environment they will go through relocation stress. This can last anywhere from a few days to a few weeks. It's very common for their appetite to be greatly affected during this time and shouldn't be considered alarming as long as husbandry is up to par. The appetite will slowly increase as the dragon gets more used to his new environment... assuming husbandry is proper like mentioned.

-Brandon


The highest spot is 120. The next level down gets 110. Measuring with an ir laser temp gun.

The uvb is a long tube 22” long.

I am having trouble uploading pics so I will keep looking into that.

Should we really be handling him much at this age? I hold him every night and pet him very often throughout the day. He doesn’t seem to mind it. When should we allow to go outside to get uv or run around in living room. I am scared to do that now since he’s still fairly small.

I do know that the breeder feeds lobster roach instead of Dubia. Is it possible that he prefers those?
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Re: 2 Month old only eats maybe 1 to 2 roaches per feeding

Postby kingofnobbys » Tue May 14, 2019 10:47 pm

btrippcsci wrote:
claudiusx wrote:Hi there,

What Temps are you getting at your basking surface with that bulb? And how are you measuring?

Your reptisun is a long tube or is it a compact coil?

Most of the time, when a dragon charges environment they will go through relocation stress. This can last anywhere from a few days to a few weeks. It's very common for their appetite to be greatly affected during this time and shouldn't be considered alarming as long as husbandry is up to par. The appetite will slowly increase as the dragon gets more used to his new environment... assuming husbandry is proper like mentioned.

-Brandon


The highest spot is 120. The next level down gets 110. Measuring with an ir laser temp gun.

110F == 43 degC this is well above a bearded dragon's VOLUNTARY MAXIMUM TEMPERATURE and very close to the CRITICAL THERMAL MAXIMUM RANGE << dangerous >>
120F == 49 degC this DEFINITELY in the bearded dragon's LETHAL TEMPERATURE RANGE , sustained exposure to this temperature with no means of excaping WILL KILL the dragon.

Those temperatures ARE WAY TOO HOT , the highest temperature the dragon should be able to access anywhere in the tank should be NO HOTTER THAN 41 degC (better if no hotter than 40 degC).
See this for the reasons based on real science and observation of the behaviours of dragons in the wild : viewtopic.php?f=5&t=233516
The important information is given here :
Image

I strongly recommend and advise you DOUBLE CHECK your temperatures using two different types of thermometers and be sure you using the correctly and if these are the actual temperatures you MUST make adjustments to bring the maximum accessible temperature down to about 100F (40 degC).
easiest options to do this
> move the Halogen higher (farther from the basking spot)
> move the basking spot lower (farther from the basking spot)
> install an inline desklamp dimmer and adjust the out put from the halogen manually by trial and error to get it right to give a basking spot at NOT HOTTER than 40degC
> install a proper dimming thermostat (with remote probe) and set to give a maximum temperature of 40degC.

The uvb is a long tube 22” long.

I am having trouble uploading pics so I will keep looking into that.

Should we really be handling him much at this age? I hold him every night and pet him very often throughout the day. He doesn’t seem to mind it. When should we allow to go outside to get uv or run around in living room. I am scared to do that now since he’s still fairly small.

I do know that the breeder feeds lobster roach instead of Dubia. Is it possible that he prefers those?
Last edited by kingofnobbys on Tue May 14, 2019 11:34 pm, edited 2 times in total.
CBDs: Cleopatra & Caesar born 28Jan19.
Puff (RIP 10Dec15),Rex (RIP 16Mar17),Toothless (RIP 26Nov17).Peppa (RIP 22Mar19).
EBTSs : George & Mildred (born july 2010).
EWSs : Fluffy rescued injured by lawnwacker14Nov17, Gutzy 27Sep19.
Lucky - cat attack rescue, SI RIP 21Jul2010.
Wriggles - injured rescued, boss lizard, over 8 yrs old, RIP 2Feb16. .
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Re: 2 Month old only eats maybe 1 to 2 roaches per feeding

Postby kingofnobbys » Tue May 14, 2019 11:15 pm

btrippcsci wrote:
kmwilson042182 wrote:Can you go over your setup and post a picture of it and your dragon and also let us know what supplements you are using and the schedule. It is possible it could be a husbandry issue that can be corrected, or if everything is perfect there could be some other underlying issues. A 2 month old should be eagerly eating far more bugs than that. Also, have you tried any other feeders other than dubia? How long have you had him and is the not eating a recent thing? I have a 2 month old as well right now and he eats 25-30 dubias and 10 silkworms for breakfast and another 25-30 dubias or 40+ BSF larvae for dinner. He also usually gets a mid day snack of some bugs as well. They are all different, but I tell you this just for some sort of reference benchmark of what a diet for a 2 month old should resemble.

Kyle


We have a Carolina Customs 36 x 18 x 18 tank. Currently, have some bricks from lowes(maybe this is a problem" Substrate is paper towel but moving to butcher paper.
Paper toweling from the pantry is IMO perfect for hatchlings to be on.

I have the 75w halogen with the reptisun 10 uvb bulb.
Lights go off around 10pm. On again around 8 AM. He gets fed aroudn 9AM and 6 - 7 PM.
I gut load with various veggies and stuff and then dust with calcium and the vitamins.

The lights need to be on about 2 hours before his first feed , this will help him warm up and get his metabolism going nicely and hence he'll become more keen on the live insects.
Regards suitable insects :
The ones I favor for hatchlings up to 4 months old that can be left for the hatchling to eat at it's leisure are
>>> Blowfly gents *
>>> Black soldier fly lavae (gents) * the super lively large white ones are the most appealing
>>> silkworms ( for a 2 month old up to 1" long, for a 3 month old up to 2" long , and large for a larger 4 month old ).
* These are deposited in a ceramic rim lipped feeder bowl (like can be found on Ebay https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Ceramic-Rep ... JTatUC4pyg ) , make sure the gents are dry and the bowl is dry else the maggots will climb out escape.

>>> crickets
26 day old (1/4 size) for a smallish 2 month old , 1/3 size for a 3 month old, 2/3 size for a larger 4 month old , dusted and gut loaded
>>> roaches (sized to suit)
>>> locusts (sized to suit)
these more speedy insects are best offed one or two at a time either by hand or using plastic tweezers or by leaving the hatchling in it's tank and dropping the insect or two where it can see it/them, let the hatchling catch and eat these, then repeat , stop offering when the dragon has lost interest.

Salad …. offer but only later in the day after the hatchling has had it's first 2 insect feeds. If the hatchling ignores the salad it's no big deal , some like their salad , others take a while to discover it and develop a liking for it. Hence using the same veg and greens you'd like the hatchling to eat as the gut loading for the crickets/roaches/locusts.

Some hatchlings will only eat when no one is watching.

Hand feeding is an option if you have a poor eater - this way you can develop a very tight bond and will know exactly what it's eaten , here are some tips on handfeeding : viewtopic.php?f=18&t=235583

If the UVA is too low , the dragon will not feed properly.
You need about 1 mW UVA / sq.cm at the basking spot to be sure the UVA flux is adequate to stimulate a strong appetite.
Also aim for about 200 microW UVB / sq.cm at the basking spot to be sure the UVB flux is adequate to promote good absorption of dietary Ca and photosynthesis of serum VitD3.

Can you tell us exactly what your UV source is :
you mention a 10UVB tube , but didn't say if it's a T8 or a T5HO tube , which is it ?
how is it installed ,
ie distance from basking spot ?
ie under the mesh or ontop the mesh ?
ie is here proper reflector in the "luminaire or hood" ?




We have owned in for a week today. I have put a hornworm in there and small dubia, have tried a cricket or two as well and the same problem. He never seems to eat his greens either. He doesnt really go in his water bowl so i drip some water on him daily.

I will upload pictures in a shortly.
CBDs: Cleopatra & Caesar born 28Jan19.
Puff (RIP 10Dec15),Rex (RIP 16Mar17),Toothless (RIP 26Nov17).Peppa (RIP 22Mar19).
EBTSs : George & Mildred (born july 2010).
EWSs : Fluffy rescued injured by lawnwacker14Nov17, Gutzy 27Sep19.
Lucky - cat attack rescue, SI RIP 21Jul2010.
Wriggles - injured rescued, boss lizard, over 8 yrs old, RIP 2Feb16. .
kingofnobbys
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Re: 2 Month old only eats maybe 1 to 2 roaches per feeding

Postby lin66 » Wed May 15, 2019 3:17 am

We have a 2 month beardie with the same problem. He eats about 4-5 live insects a day (crickets or doubia). He was the smallest of the clutch and was very timid so it could be that he's just not a big eater but I'm still worrying about it. He's also lethargic a lot of the time. We've had him for 3 weeks now so I would have thought he would be over relocation stress. I've also wondered sometimes if he can't see them but I've seen him look directly at them and still just ignore them. Let us know how you get on when you address the temp issue or if he's any better when he's more settled in as I'll be following to see if I can learn anything to help my baby.
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Re: 2 Month old only eats maybe 1 to 2 roaches per feeding

Postby claudiusx » Wed May 15, 2019 5:21 am

I'd recommend lowering your basking spot temperature a bit. Sometimes if it's too hot it discourages basking. and if they don't bask, they won't digest properly and im sure you can see how that can lead to loss of appetite.

You can try either raising your bulb so it's further away, lowering the basking surface, or trying a lower wattage bulb.

110 is usually the max I like for babies but the beauty of a thermal gradient is that it's cooler in other areas and they can pick the spot that they like the best. So shoot for around 110 and that should give your guy options to choose from on his basking spot.

Dont worry you're definitely not going to kill your dragon with your temps lol. Unless your tank is lined with heat bulbs and the whole tank is 120... then you might have a problem ;)

And to answer your other question, it's personal preference. I personally like to keep handling to a minimum for the first week or two to get them accustomed to their new environment first. Others handle them from day 1. It's your choice.

And just an example for you about eating, when I got both Tombo and Moro, they both ate decent the first day or two. Then they ate maybe only a couple worms the next day. By the middle of the week I was happy if they ate even 1 worm. By week two they had both slowly started eating more, maybe 4 or 5. The next day 6 or 7. The next day 10. Now they can easily wolf down 20-30 worms at once. My point is sometimes it takes time. My dragons were healthy and are healthy, it was simply the charge in environment and new stresses.

Good luck with yours :D

-Brandon
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Re: 2 Month old only eats maybe 1 to 2 roaches per feeding

Postby kmwilson042182 » Wed May 15, 2019 5:27 am

To answer your question about handling too much, I would try to avoid handling him as much as possible until the eating gets back in line. Being that he could be having relocation stress you don’t want to add anymore additional stress to the dragon. Just because he is tolerating the handling at this point does not necessarily mean it isn’t stressing him out to some extent. Try just keeping your hand in the cage and talking to him in order to build a bond. In the meantime sure up any husbandry deficiencies and hopefully the eating will get back to normal. Relocation stress can last from a day to several weeks so the goal is to minimize the stress and sure up the husbandry. Make sure the bugs are appropriate size. The dubias my guy currently eats are the extra smalls which are about 1/4 inch. Maybe try tiny crickets in case he just doesn’t like dubias. If your cage is glass then cover 3 sides of the cage so he can’t see out or see a reflection.

Kyle
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Re: 2 Month old only eats maybe 1 to 2 roaches per feeding

Postby btrippcsci » Wed May 15, 2019 5:33 am

kingofnobbys wrote:
btrippcsci wrote:
kmwilson042182 wrote:Can you go over your setup and post a picture of it and your dragon and also let us know what supplements you are using and the schedule. It is possible it could be a husbandry issue that can be corrected, or if everything is perfect there could be some other underlying issues. A 2 month old should be eagerly eating far more bugs than that. Also, have you tried any other feeders other than dubia? How long have you had him and is the not eating a recent thing? I have a 2 month old as well right now and he eats 25-30 dubias and 10 silkworms for breakfast and another 25-30 dubias or 40+ BSF larvae for dinner. He also usually gets a mid day snack of some bugs as well. They are all different, but I tell you this just for some sort of reference benchmark of what a diet for a 2 month old should resemble.

Kyle


We have a Carolina Customs 36 x 18 x 18 tank. Currently, have some bricks from lowes(maybe this is a problem" Substrate is paper towel but moving to butcher paper.
Paper toweling from the pantry is IMO perfect for hatchlings to be on.

I have the 75w halogen with the reptisun 10 uvb bulb.
Lights go off around 10pm. On again around 8 AM. He gets fed aroudn 9AM and 6 - 7 PM.
I gut load with various veggies and stuff and then dust with calcium and the vitamins.

The lights need to be on about 2 hours before his first feed , this will help him warm up and get his metabolism going nicely and hence he'll become more keen on the live insects.
Regards suitable insects :
The ones I favor for hatchlings up to 4 months old that can be left for the hatchling to eat at it's leisure are
>>> Blowfly gents *
>>> Black soldier fly lavae (gents) * the super lively large white ones are the most appealing
>>> silkworms ( for a 2 month old up to 1" long, for a 3 month old up to 2" long , and large for a larger 4 month old ).
* These are deposited in a ceramic rim lipped feeder bowl (like can be found on Ebay https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Ceramic-Rep ... JTatUC4pyg ) , make sure the gents are dry and the bowl is dry else the maggots will climb out escape.

>>> crickets
26 day old (1/4 size) for a smallish 2 month old , 1/3 size for a 3 month old, 2/3 size for a larger 4 month old , dusted and gut loaded
>>> roaches (sized to suit)
>>> locusts (sized to suit)
these more speedy insects are best offed one or two at a time either by hand or using plastic tweezers or by leaving the hatchling in it's tank and dropping the insect or two where it can see it/them, let the hatchling catch and eat these, then repeat , stop offering when the dragon has lost interest.

Salad …. offer but only later in the day after the hatchling has had it's first 2 insect feeds. If the hatchling ignores the salad it's no big deal , some like their salad , others take a while to discover it and develop a liking for it. Hence using the same veg and greens you'd like the hatchling to eat as the gut loading for the crickets/roaches/locusts.

Some hatchlings will only eat when no one is watching.

Hand feeding is an option if you have a poor eater - this way you can develop a very tight bond and will know exactly what it's eaten , here are some tips on handfeeding : viewtopic.php?f=18&t=235583

If the UVA is too low , the dragon will not feed properly.
You need about 1 mW UVA / sq.cm at the basking spot to be sure the UVA flux is adequate to stimulate a strong appetite.
Also aim for about 200 microW UVB / sq.cm at the basking spot to be sure the UVB flux is adequate to promote good absorption of dietary Ca and photosynthesis of serum VitD3.

Can you tell us exactly what your UV source is :
you mention a 10UVB tube , but didn't say if it's a T8 or a T5HO tube , which is it ?
how is it installed ,
ie distance from basking spot ?
ie under the mesh or ontop the mesh ?
ie is here proper reflector in the "luminaire or hood" ?




We have owned in for a week today. I have put a hornworm in there and small dubia, have tried a cricket or two as well and the same problem. He never seems to eat his greens either. He doesnt really go in his water bowl so i drip some water on him daily.

I will upload pictures in a shortly.


Hey,

Thanks for the details in your reply. I have the t5ho ballast. It is mounted under the mesh. So the bulb is about 2 inches from the top mesh and the tank height is 18”. Posting pictures shortly.
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Re: 2 Month old only eats maybe 1 to 2 roaches per feeding

Postby btrippcsci » Wed May 15, 2019 5:34 am

claudiusx wrote:I'd recommend lowering your basking spot temperature a bit. Sometimes if it's too hot it discourages basking. and if they don't bask, they won't digest properly and im sure you can see how that can lead to loss of appetite.

You can try either raising your bulb so it's further away, lowering the basking surface, or trying a lower wattage bulb.

110 is usually the max I like for babies but the beauty of a thermal gradient is that it's cooler in other areas and they can pick the spot that they like the best. So shoot for around 110 and that should give your guy options to choose from on his basking spot.

Dont worry you're definitely not going to kill your dragon with your temps lol. Unless your tank is lined with heat bulbs and the whole tank is 120... then you might have a problem ;)

And to answer your other question, it's personal preference. I personally like to keep handling to a minimum for the first week or two to get them accustomed to their new environment first. Others handle them from day 1. It's your choice.

And just an example for you about eating, when I got both Tombo and Moro, they both ate decent the first day or two. Then they ate maybe only a couple worms the next day. By the middle of the week I was happy if they ate even 1 worm. By week two they had both slowly started eating more, maybe 4 or 5. The next day 6 or 7. The next day 10. Now they can easily wolf down 20-30 worms at once. My point is sometimes it takes time. My dragons were healthy and are healthy, it was simply the charge in environment and new stresses.

Good luck with yours :D

-Brandon


I will lower the temp. I have two bricks stacked so I can take 1 level off to get the 110 temp. I am hoping his problem is similar to what you described.
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Re: 2 Month old only eats maybe 1 to 2 roaches per feeding

Postby claudiusx » Wed May 15, 2019 5:35 am

That would be perfect :)

Looking forward to seeing pics of your tank. That way we can see if there are any other tweaks you could make to help your guy out.

-Brandon
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Re: 2 Month old only eats maybe 1 to 2 roaches per feeding

Postby btrippcsci » Wed May 15, 2019 5:37 am

kmwilson042182 wrote:To answer your question about handling too much, I would try to avoid handling him as much as possible until the eating gets back in line. Being that he could be having relocation stress you don’t want to add anymore additional stress to the dragon. Just because he is tolerating the handling at this point does not necessarily mean it isn’t stressing him out to some extent. Try just keeping your hand in the cage and talking to him in order to build a bond. In the meantime sure up any husbandry deficiencies and hopefully the eating will get back to normal. Relocation stress can last from a day to several weeks so the goal is to minimize the stress and sure up the husbandry. Make sure the bugs are appropriate size. The dubias my guy currently eats are the extra smalls which are about 1/4 inch. Maybe try tiny crickets in case he just doesn’t like dubias. If your cage is glass then cover 3 sides of the cage so he can’t see out or see a reflection.

Kyle


Okay I will definitely try the minimal handling. Right now we have the cage covered in the outside. However, I know he can still see his reflection. I am going to put the cover on the inside now so he won’t be able too. I am also ordering and introducing different insects. Going to try more crickets and also the black fly larvae.
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Re: 2 Month old only eats maybe 1 to 2 roaches per feeding

Postby kingofnobbys » Wed May 15, 2019 6:40 am

btrippcsci wrote:

Hey,

Thanks for the details in your reply. I have the t5ho ballast. It is mounted under the mesh. So the bulb is about 2 inches from the top mesh and the tank height is 18”. Posting pictures shortly.


Is this a domestic ballast or a proper reflector hood ?
The effect of the paraboloid shaped reflectors in hoods is to
1) redirect the UV towards the reptile
2) focus and concentrate the UV in the reptile's direction
3) essentially double the UVA and UVB flux at any given distance from the tube.

SO if there is no reflector , the 10% UVB T5ho needs to about 5 inches from the basking spot, if there tube is in a reflector hood , this becomes 11 inches for a NEW 10% UVB t5ho tube.
Image
CBDs: Cleopatra & Caesar born 28Jan19.
Puff (RIP 10Dec15),Rex (RIP 16Mar17),Toothless (RIP 26Nov17).Peppa (RIP 22Mar19).
EBTSs : George & Mildred (born july 2010).
EWSs : Fluffy rescued injured by lawnwacker14Nov17, Gutzy 27Sep19.
Lucky - cat attack rescue, SI RIP 21Jul2010.
Wriggles - injured rescued, boss lizard, over 8 yrs old, RIP 2Feb16. .
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