1st Clutch of 13 (all Perfect) 2nd clutch of 11 (Not perfect

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1st Clutch of 13 (all Perfect) 2nd clutch of 11 (Not perfect

Postby Mickyj » Thu Mar 21, 2019 9:33 pm

My lizards have been very healthy.
They get plenty of UV, plenty of Calcium. Bathed often.
Occasionally eat greens (it is up to them ... they don't always eat).
Crickets, occasionally mealworms, Woodies.
They are both nearing 2 years old.

The 1st clutch of 13 were all perfect. 100% hatch ratio.

The 2nd clutch, 11, not so good. Still a 100% hatch ratio.

I can't work out if something has gone wrong, we have done something wrong or these two parent lizards are from the same parents and are inbreeding. *need to go back to the pet stores to ask.

Both clutches hatched at 51 days. 29C, 75% humidity in an incubator.

Same nesting box although the time from Gravid to laying was a lot less than clutch 1.

I think my hatchlings are suffering from genetic mutation due to inbreeding, or I have some something wrong.

Looking for pointers.

Of the 11, 5 have very bad tails. I don't know if they will survive. They have very little balance. One beardies tail is a hook pointing down and catches on everything.

If one of them was human, I would suggest it has a belly button and a prolapse / hernia popping out.

I would hate to think anything I have done has caused this. I can see that some of these animals will be special needs but suspect a few will not make it.
I am concerned about their vent being obstructed and needing special attention.

One looks like it has scoliosis

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Most have twisted tails
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All hatched over the last 24 hours. Just out of the incubator.

Any ideas or advice ?

I don''t think it is MBD at this point in their early journey.

Whilst they can't balance, they all seem happy and move about.

(As soon as they are old enough, I will be taking to a reptile specialist).
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Re: 1st Clutch of 13 (all Perfect) 2nd clutch of 11 (Not per

Postby Mickyj » Fri Mar 22, 2019 2:31 am

there has been a suggestion that maybe the female dragon did not get enough calcium between clutches.

One of the dragons appears to have remnants of the egg still attached to the slit or stomach protruding. I will try and post more photos.

This clutch was the Same parents, setup, incubator etc.

One of the things that did worry me, is the length of time between clutches. Whilst we did coat crickets in calcium and fed in other ways, there was only 51 days.
Is this enough time to replenish.
So basically, the first clutch was laid, and hatched 51 days later. On that day, the female was again already gravid and laid. the incubator never even got turned off.
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Re: 1st Clutch of 13 (all Perfect) 2nd clutch of 11 (Not per

Postby Mickyj » Fri Mar 22, 2019 2:33 am

[Click image to enlarge]
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Re: 1st Clutch of 13 (all Perfect) 2nd clutch of 11 (Not per

Postby Mickyj » Fri Mar 22, 2019 2:36 am

so, we rang the pet store.

they said what we have here, is very normal. Their breeders that give them stock, often get dragons with twisted tails.

They say that in a clutch of 13, one that is not right, is normal.
They can't sell them, pass them back to other breeders.

They also said that they can live a normal life.

Wonder if they know what they are talking about. I am still thinking maybe not enough calcium.

Even though they are young, off to the vet tomorrow.
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Re: 1st Clutch of 13 (all Perfect) 2nd clutch of 11 (Not per

Postby claudiusx » Fri Mar 22, 2019 6:05 am

51 days of incubation is short. It's possible they didnt finish developing. Also, you're at the top end of incubation temps which could be why they hatched so quickly.

Either way, it sounds like obviously there are some serious genetic issues with this bloodline and especially with the proof that the petstore says they get this happening too. It doesnt neccesarily mean it's from inbreeding but it could be.

I would suggest incubating the next clutch lower and slower and see what happens. Just for experiments sake.
But it would be best and the most responsible option to stop this bloodline so that it cant mix with other healthy bloodlines one day in the future. And I would suggest mentioning this to the petstore too.

-Brandon
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Re: 1st Clutch of 13 (all Perfect) 2nd clutch of 11 (Not per

Postby claudiusx » Fri Mar 22, 2019 6:22 am

I did just notice the time frame in between clutches. It is possible this had an affect too since the first clutch was fine. But, i've seen some close clutches before and they have come out fine.

But still, with the fact that the petstore said this was "normal" is a big red flag that this bloodline should be stopped.

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Re: 1st Clutch of 13 (all Perfect) 2nd clutch of 11 (Not per

Postby AHBD » Fri Mar 22, 2019 6:55 am

Poor little dudes. They may be able to live a normal life but of course you'll have to find good homes for them. It wouldn't have anything to do with length of time between laying, they usually only go about 3 weeks between clutches. Maybe the mom WAS somehow very calcium deficient or some other deficiency while carrying these eggs. And inbreeding was possible somewhere in their background although it's a mystery that the first cluth that hatched were all perfect. What brand of uvb do you use and can you post pics of the parent dragon's set up ?
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Re: 1st Clutch of 13 (all Perfect) 2nd clutch of 11 (Not per

Postby Mickyj » Fri Mar 22, 2019 5:21 pm

Thanks, I will grab some photos. (not in this comment post .. will come later).

Ok, so we have taken three to the vet. The one with the prolapse "belly button" he said already looks tired, ill and will likely get infection. He said the humane thing to do was to euthanize it. they are only days old but we have already bonded so ... this is a hard step.

the sample of the bent tails we took to the vet, he said had no balance, was spending too much time on it's back, feet do not look right and will not survive. So that one he is also going to Euthanize.

the final one, the hunch back, he said will live a normal life. So it is coming home.
The final 3 that have deformities, we have a week to decide what to do and he will also euthanize if need be (for free) .. nice vet.

based on the first 13 being perfect and same conditions, he surmised it was calcium deficiency caused by the short time between clutches.

He believes the first 13 depleted the mothers skeleton. The calcium we then fed her went into her bones and not enough into the eggs.

He said that there was no way, in this time frame, to have gotten enough calcium into her.

That flies in the face of other peoples advice. He is a reptile "exotic" vet and well known in our area, so I guess I have to run with that.
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Re: 1st Clutch of 13 (all Perfect) 2nd clutch of 11 (Not per

Postby AHBD » Fri Mar 22, 2019 5:34 pm

I'm sorry that the little guys will be put down and sorry this all happened. I assure you though that it had nothing to do with the time between laying but somehow she was lacking in enough calcium, that's more likely the culprit. As I raised beardies years ago I had dragons lay 5-7 clutches per season with regularity , one girl laid 8 clutches which were all over 30 eggs per clutch. Not one deformed baby. The only thing I believe that was different was that some were a little smaller toward the end of the season. But no deformities. I think in a span of several years I had 1 with a short + curly tail but the curling was minor. Was your girl eating a lot ? Just be sure to feed her twice a day with a light calcium dusting on all the prey items.

Here are pics of 2 clutches hatching, you can see some of the eggs were smaller after the female laid so many clutches. You can see smaller eggs in these 2 clutches on the far left .
https://www.beardeddragon.org/useruploa ... _large.jpg

https://www.beardeddragon.org/useruploa ... _large.jpg
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Re: 1st Clutch of 13 (all Perfect) 2nd clutch of 11 (Not per

Postby Foxxy76 » Fri Mar 22, 2019 10:11 pm

Their adorable little nippers! Sad to hear about the sick ones. Poor babies. I agree that if the store thinks that's normal and continually happens there might be a bloodline issue.
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Re: 1st Clutch of 13 (all Perfect) 2nd clutch of 11 (Not per

Postby Mickyj » Sun Mar 24, 2019 3:51 pm

Thanks all. Yes, we did feed her full of calcium. Not sure if it was not enough.
So we are left with two with odd tails and one with a hunch back.
The others have tails with little bends in them.

The problem we face is all the pet stores whom take and resell dragons, only want perfect ones.
So we are going to be left with 9 dragons which we can't really support.

One pet store mentioned that local breeders take these and breed them (if it was only a calcium deficiency). So, if anyone is in South Australia and would be happy to take these precious little guys to look after them (free) then let me know :)
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Re: 1st Clutch of 13 (all Perfect) 2nd clutch of 11 (Not per

Postby Terry15 » Sun Mar 24, 2019 4:12 pm

You could PM “kingofnobbys” he is in Australia.
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Re: 1st Clutch of 13 (all Perfect) 2nd clutch of 11 (Not per

Postby Foxxy76 » Sun Mar 24, 2019 11:34 pm

If I lived in Australia I would take one! (Or two...) My man creature probably wouldn't be happy with me though! :lol:
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Re: 1st Clutch of 13 (all Perfect) 2nd clutch of 11 (Not per

Postby AHBD » Mon Mar 25, 2019 3:54 pm

Poor little buggers, you can probably find good homes for them. You should make it clear that they should not be bred because there is a high possibility that it's at least partly genetic.
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