Moon sand !!?? Is it the answer to our prayers?

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Moon sand !!?? Is it the answer to our prayers?

Postby Echoplexic » Thu Sep 20, 2018 7:42 pm

I was just trying to find a loose substrate that wasn't just flat out bad feeling /looking or leave me terrified of the infamous ability to induce a deadly impaction. Then I thought of the moonsand i haven't really used at all that someone gifted me . When I googled it it said that it's made of flour and vegetable oil . Hmmmmmmm that sounds safe to me. am I wrong ? Do reptiles digest differently and I'send up poisoning him?
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Re: Moon sand !!?? Is it the answer to our prayers?

Postby HippieLizards » Fri Sep 21, 2018 6:37 am

I'd not use it at all because it still is a loose substrate and Imo it sounds too risky. Read this link for the other dangers of loose substrates: viewtopic.php?f=34&t=243890&p=1857889#p1857889

IMO I'd stick with paper towels or tile.
Slave to three Beardies, one Crested gecko, a Ball Python, and a Cat. (R.I.P Thor & Cisco, You two will always be in our hearts).[Click image to enlarge]
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Re: Moon sand !!?? Is it the answer to our prayers?

Postby kingofnobbys » Fri Sep 21, 2018 8:10 am

No …. not suitable for all the same reasons why other particulate substrates are dangerous for bearded dragons to be forced to live on and amongst.
CBDs: Puff (M)(RIP 10Dec2015 @ 3.2 yrs old (aneurism)),Rex (F)(RIP 16Mar2017 @ 4.6 yrs old,Toothless (M)(sudden unexplained death RIP 26Nov2017) @ 2.1 yrs old.Peppa (F) (born 15Nov2015).
EBTSs : George & Mildred (born july 2010).
EWSs : Lucky (M)(wild juvenile), cat attack rescue, fatal SI RIP 21Jul2010.Wriggles (F)(rescued injured),thought she was a big lizard, 7-8 yrs old, died in her sleep, RIP 2Feb2016). Fluffy (F) rescued 14Nov2017 about 4 yrs old . .
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Re: Moon sand !!?? Is it the answer to our prayers?

Postby Echoplexic » Fri Sep 21, 2018 6:39 pm

Thanks for answering but I guess I should have been more clear that I'm going to be using a loose substrate no matter what. I truly believe that if beardies can thrive in the wild and not all die of impaction that it is safe for me to use a loose substrate as long as I provide areas away from it as well(variety is life). I respect that you believe it's unsafe so please do not comment about how my dragon will die of impaction. I was asking if moonsand were to be ingested by a beardie would it pass through it just fine since its just flour and oil. Or are flour and oil going to cause impaction , that doesn't seem likely since oil doesn't mix with water so I'd assume it would just slide through him easy .
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Re: Moon sand !!?? Is it the answer to our prayers?

Postby HippieLizards » Fri Sep 21, 2018 9:29 pm

:| What type of particle substrate would you use exactly? Because Impaction Isn't the only thing that Particle substrates can cause.
It can also cause:

>Particle substrates harbor bacteria and sometimes fungus spores,
>It's very hard to spot clean,
>It smells,
>and it can stain the skin on beardies,
>Prolapses,
>Joint issues,
> provides a place for tons of bacteria to breed,
>so not very clean even if you do spot clean it,
>it can cause scale rot sometimes,
>it also can cause fungal infections. And of course death.

Now, this is only my opinion and Yes, there are some people who use particle substrates and haven't had a problem with that, but really In my opinion It really isn't worth the risk because so many people have put their beardies on a bad substrate and the beardies either died or got very sick from it.

I Respect that you think it would be ok to do particle substrates for your beardie (if you took great precautions) but did you search where beardies are native to? It isn't that much sand and particle substrates and is mainly hard packed dirt and clay. [Click image to enlarge]

As you can see there is only a little bit of sand and such. It's mainly hard packed dirt, clay, and scrub.

Well, Whatever substrates you use, I hope your beardie Is happy and healthy with you. :)
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Re: Moon sand !!?? Is it the answer to our prayers?

Postby kingofnobbys » Sat Sep 22, 2018 1:10 am

And the insects eaten are taken more often than not found climbing up grasses and on leaves, and the leaves and flowers and fruit when available is not laying on the grown or wet enough to have dirt stick to it.

This
Requirements to make a naturalistic substrate

viewtopic.php?f=34&t=244236
will give you a very good idea of the natural habit bearded dragons live in, I've been there and there is very little loose gravelly or sandy stuff to found, and the dust along roads is very fine power like , so fine it gets into everything unless you have the windows in the car up and vents closed.
CBDs: Puff (M)(RIP 10Dec2015 @ 3.2 yrs old (aneurism)),Rex (F)(RIP 16Mar2017 @ 4.6 yrs old,Toothless (M)(sudden unexplained death RIP 26Nov2017) @ 2.1 yrs old.Peppa (F) (born 15Nov2015).
EBTSs : George & Mildred (born july 2010).
EWSs : Lucky (M)(wild juvenile), cat attack rescue, fatal SI RIP 21Jul2010.Wriggles (F)(rescued injured),thought she was a big lizard, 7-8 yrs old, died in her sleep, RIP 2Feb2016). Fluffy (F) rescued 14Nov2017 about 4 yrs old . .
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Re: Moon sand !!?? Is it the answer to our prayers?

Postby Gormagon » Sat Sep 22, 2018 4:18 am

I have noticed that dragons don't like to poop where they live. That leads me to think that maybe in the wild they go elsewhere to do the deed (away from their living area at the edge of their territory). This means that they are fine on the natural turf but, being cramped up in a small area, they have no other recourse. This leads to disease and parasites (fungal and, bacterial infections). This is why we keep them on non-partacal substrates as they are easy to keep clean and, safer for your dragon.

You sound determined to do this no matter what we say to answer you question so why are you actually asking?
Sorry but someone had to say it!!!
The wonderful world of bearded dragons is a magical land of mystery, enchantment, cuddles, love and, worry! A mysterious realm where things always seem to change in an instant and, the moment you think you have it all figured out, the rules change! You think you own your dragon, guess again. You are now a slave!!!
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Re: Moon sand !!?? Is it the answer to our prayers?

Postby kingofnobbys » Sat Sep 22, 2018 4:30 am

Gormagon wrote:I have noticed that dragons don't like to poop where they live. That leads me to think that maybe in the wild they go elsewhere to do the deed (away from their living area at the edge of their territory). This means that they are fine on the natural turf but, being cramped up in a small area, they have no other recourse. This leads to disease and parasites (fungal and, bacterial infections). This is why we keep them on non-partacal substrates as they are easy to keep clean and, safer for your dragon.



This is very true …. I've noted that my resident wild skinks and dragons and geckos that live under my house, in my shed, about my yard , and even visit inside do not just poo everywhere, the resident "house skink" very rearly poos inside the house anywhere that we can find , it goes outside to poo (regards the inside of the house as it's territory that it happens to share with us and our pet skinks and dragon).

This is instinctive behavior ..

I think the OP needs to take on board what we have shared with him …. I for one do not like wasting my time with someone who is determined to ignore advise .
CBDs: Puff (M)(RIP 10Dec2015 @ 3.2 yrs old (aneurism)),Rex (F)(RIP 16Mar2017 @ 4.6 yrs old,Toothless (M)(sudden unexplained death RIP 26Nov2017) @ 2.1 yrs old.Peppa (F) (born 15Nov2015).
EBTSs : George & Mildred (born july 2010).
EWSs : Lucky (M)(wild juvenile), cat attack rescue, fatal SI RIP 21Jul2010.Wriggles (F)(rescued injured),thought she was a big lizard, 7-8 yrs old, died in her sleep, RIP 2Feb2016). Fluffy (F) rescued 14Nov2017 about 4 yrs old . .
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Re: Moon sand !!?? Is it the answer to our prayers?

Postby Echoplexic » Sat Sep 22, 2018 10:14 am

I'm not ignoring your advice and thank you all for your replies :D I have been researching all about beardie substrates for the last four months or so and have really started to get creative with ideas. I'm not critical of keeping beardies on paper towels since this is currently what mine is on .
I should mention though that mine is a rankins dragon So ever so slightly different and has a natural tendency to dig that's why I'm looking for a particle substrate . The particle substrate will only be in one small portion of the tank and he wont be getting fed on it , infact he wouldn't have to ever walk on it if he chooses.
I'm almost done with the build of his new tank and would love any feedback on the forum I have on that as well. :blob5: I was almost inclined to do an entirely bioactive setup like I have for my leopard and crested geckos.
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Re: Moon sand !!?? Is it the answer to our prayers?

Postby Echoplexic » Sat Sep 22, 2018 10:17 am

Also the exact substrate I was questioning here is actually called sands alive and is advertised as a children's play sand that is water soluble and is safe for children to ingest and cannot harbor bacteria.
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Re: Moon sand !!?? Is it the answer to our prayers?

Postby Gormagon » Sat Sep 22, 2018 11:10 am

Echoplexic wrote:Also the exact substrate I was questioning here is actually called sands alive and is advertised as a children's play sand that is water soluble and is safe for children to ingest and cannot harbor bacteria.

It's the moisture that is absorbed into the sand that breeds bacteria and fungi. So if it is water soluble it will harbor both.
So you would have to constantly change this sand or other loose substrate constantly or deal with a sick dragon at some point.
I would never risk my dragon's life for ANY type of research.

You sound like someone that is trying to sell this stuff. Well I ain't buy'n into it!!!
The wonderful world of bearded dragons is a magical land of mystery, enchantment, cuddles, love and, worry! A mysterious realm where things always seem to change in an instant and, the moment you think you have it all figured out, the rules change! You think you own your dragon, guess again. You are now a slave!!!
RIP Peaches 10-1-18
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Re: Moon sand !!?? Is it the answer to our prayers?

Postby Echoplexic » Sat Sep 22, 2018 12:03 pm

Haha no I'm not trying to sell the stuff but that's a good point even if it's in a dry environment as soon a spec of water gets on it I'd need to remove it asap . Although someone said you can air dry small amounts of water but I don't think I can believe that . Maybe they were talking about a different brand of it.
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Re: Moon sand !!?? Is it the answer to our prayers?

Postby Gormagon » Sat Sep 22, 2018 6:49 pm

Bioactive will not thrive in desert conditions, it requires a humidity that would be too high and, cause respiratory issues.
The wonderful world of bearded dragons is a magical land of mystery, enchantment, cuddles, love and, worry! A mysterious realm where things always seem to change in an instant and, the moment you think you have it all figured out, the rules change! You think you own your dragon, guess again. You are now a slave!!!
RIP Peaches 10-1-18
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Re: Moon sand !!?? Is it the answer to our prayers?

Postby Echoplexic » Sat Sep 22, 2018 6:49 pm

I really do appreciate all the time and care put into all of your answers and wantto reiterate that this thread IS me NOT taking the risk .I'm not just going to throw it in with my beardie all willy nilly. I'm diving so far into research and testing and contacting product help lines or consumer report centers and beardie vets and medical specialists and more to compile enough proof that it could be a usable substrate. When I get consise proof it is not safe i will move my dedication to a diffefent substrate As I've done with all substrates for all my reptiles. It would be the same research that the first person who ever thought of using paper towels would have done making sure they aren't bleached or colored and wouldn't cause issues.
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Re: Moon sand !!?? Is it the answer to our prayers?

Postby Echoplexic » Sat Sep 22, 2018 6:56 pm

Gormagon wrote:Bioactive will not thrive in desert conditions, it requires a humidity that would be too high and, cause respiratory issues.

It has thrived in my leopard geckos habitat and the humidity is under 40% constantly excluing her humid hide, it was just finding a balance of good hardy micro fauna that was tricky. Also I suppose finding a proper way to exclude the humidity to just the humid hide but that was easier.
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