1 noob + 1 outdated veteran

Discuss breeding topics here.

1 noob + 1 outdated veteran

Postby anyalyssa » Sat Aug 11, 2018 1:30 am

My BF has years of experience keeping and breeding reptiles, both in his personal life, and while working under a licensed herpetologist and breeder for a government conservation program. But this was almost 10 years ago, and the game has changed with the well of new information out there, and this noob has already schooled him a few times with modern studies.

He has bred dragons before, so we know we can handle the cost and care of the hatch-lings, but I want all the bases covered on the way there. One of our dragons is my first reptile ever, so I'm both overwhelmed and excited by this whole new world.

First and foremost, I DO NOT want to get into commercial breeding!!!!! I have a small group of close friends and family that want babies from one of my 3 dragons. None of whom are old enough or ready to breed yet, or larger enough to sex, they are each 1 month apart in age, with the oldest and youngest being the desired breeders.

After hours of reading and research, my one main primary concern is this: I have 6 eager dragon parents, and want to keep one for myself, but I do NOT have the space to accommodate more than 10 babies. The time and the money, yes. But not the space.

What would you all recommend? Is..... freezing.... some of them and keeping the rest an option? I really don't like the idea of killing them, but somewhere I read that it's not *technically* "alive" after initially being laid? The idea has me apprehensive.
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Re: 1 noob + 1 outdated veteran

Postby AHBD » Sat Aug 11, 2018 4:39 am

Yes, you can definitely dispose of some eggs that way. You don't even need to freeze them, just put them in a double plastic bag and put a bit of water or ice cubes on them then toss them out. Being wet will kill them. And no, they have no nervous system and feel nothing at all.
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Re: 1 noob + 1 outdated veteran

Postby kingofnobbys » Sat Aug 11, 2018 5:13 am

Even, better, you can enjoy your pair of beardies by letting them court at distance but never allowing them to actually mate.

Wont harm the females to never mate , and it reduces the risks of complications due to egg baring the risks of injury in the process of mating.

Feed the eggs back to the female when she lays them, this will replace calcium and be nutritious , in bad seasons I have been told by professional herpetologists that this is happens in the wild , either the mother returns to the nest or raids nests she finds and consumes the eggs. I would not wait for the embryos to develop a brain before doing this though.
Last edited by kingofnobbys on Sat Aug 11, 2018 5:18 am, edited 1 time in total.
CBDs: Puff (M)(RIP 10Dec2015 @ 3.2 yrs old (aneurism)),Rex (F)(RIP 16Mar2017 @ 4.6 yrs old,Toothless (M)(sudden unexplained death RIP 26Nov2017) @ 2.1 yrs old.Peppa (F) (born 15Nov2015).
EBTSs : George & Mildred (born july 2010).
EWSs : Lucky (M)(wild juvenile), cat attack rescue, fatal SI RIP 21Jul2010.Wriggles (F)(rescued injured),thought she was a big lizard, 7-8 yrs old, died in her sleep, RIP 2Feb2016). Fluffy (F) rescued 14Nov2017 about 4 yrs old . .
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Re: 1 noob + 1 outdated veteran

Postby AHBD » Sat Aug 11, 2018 5:16 am

The O.P wants a few babies, hence the Q about keeping some, disposing of some.
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Re: 1 noob + 1 outdated veteran

Postby kingofnobbys » Sat Aug 11, 2018 5:22 am

AHBD wrote:The O.P wants a few babies, hence the Q about keeping some, disposing of some.


That's do-able …. all a matter of timing , I'm not sure how long it takes for bearded dragon embryos to develop a brain that can sense pain …. perhaps a reptile biologist will know that answer.

Personally - I'd let the female produce a clutch of eggs and incubate and hatch the eggs, choose the best few as holdbacks and sell or adopt out the remaining hatchlings at about 6 weeks old.

I think once they have more than 2 or 3 breeding pairs - they are no longer just a hobby but a commercial operation.
Last edited by kingofnobbys on Sat Aug 11, 2018 5:27 am, edited 1 time in total.
CBDs: Puff (M)(RIP 10Dec2015 @ 3.2 yrs old (aneurism)),Rex (F)(RIP 16Mar2017 @ 4.6 yrs old,Toothless (M)(sudden unexplained death RIP 26Nov2017) @ 2.1 yrs old.Peppa (F) (born 15Nov2015).
EBTSs : George & Mildred (born july 2010).
EWSs : Lucky (M)(wild juvenile), cat attack rescue, fatal SI RIP 21Jul2010.Wriggles (F)(rescued injured),thought she was a big lizard, 7-8 yrs old, died in her sleep, RIP 2Feb2016). Fluffy (F) rescued 14Nov2017 about 4 yrs old . .
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Re: 1 noob + 1 outdated veteran

Postby AHBD » Sat Aug 11, 2018 5:24 am

Once egg laying is done you would pick out the ones to cull immediatey. There would be no problem at all and no guesswork. They would be incapable of any feeling.
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Re: 1 noob + 1 outdated veteran

Postby AHBD » Sat Aug 11, 2018 5:51 am

Oh, and FYI the beardie will lay more than one fertile clutch so are you willing to keep + hatch more [ they take a lot of money + time to care for and hard to find homes for ] or just dispose of the rest ? I'm not being callous, just showing you what would need to be done.
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Re: 1 noob + 1 outdated veteran

Postby anyalyssa » Tue Aug 14, 2018 5:31 am

I said I don't want to get into commercial breeding, and right now, that's true because I can't do that where I'm living. But my boyfriend admitted to me that we wants to get back into it when we move next year, because we'll have the space.

By random chance, the closest Repticon to us happened this past weekend. After lots of careful consideration and reviewing of our finances, we made some adjustments and he made some sacrifices.

I had a setup ready for a 4th dragon because I really want a pure white dragon, but true weros are expensive are hard to come by.

The enclosure we had set aside for him to get a pied ball python was made into a 5th dragon enclosure, and we brought home a breeding pair from lines specifically bred to create weros.

Since it will be 18 months before we can even think of breeding them, we'll already have moved into a bigger place by then and be able to accommodate breeding dragons.

As turns out, all 3 of the dragons we already have posses some really unique and highly desired visual traits, although we don't know their lineage, which is another reason I didn't want to breed them commercially, because I can't tell you any flaws they might have. But the breeder we bought from this weekend past is interested in buying for a pet if we breed my hypo, since he's quite certain it will make visually stunning babies.

And I was correct on my pink and yellow hypo being female, and BF's citrus tiger blue bar being male. The one we were quite certain was male, is female. I would call her a "common", but she's actually a generic stripe!

The two we just bought home come from established lines that were started from other established lines. I can get the history on these two, and I know that between them they posses the genetics for hypo, trans, zero, and witblit.

The male is stunning. He's yellow/white cream color with silvery purplish bars amid charcoal grayish spots and whirls. He's het for hypo and witblit.

The female looks like a common, expect with pink spots instead of orange, and each pink spot has a tiny black dot in the middle. Her head is more yellowish with pink notes. She's het for trans and zero.

(I could be backwards on which dragon has which traits, it's written down somewhere)
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Re: 1 noob + 1 outdated veteran

Postby HippieLizards » Tue Aug 14, 2018 7:17 am

kingofnobbys wrote:
AHBD wrote:The O.P wants a few babies, hence the Q about keeping some, disposing of some.


That's do-able …. all a matter of timing , I'm not sure how long it takes for bearded dragon embryos to develop a brain that can sense pain …. perhaps a reptile biologist will know that answer. I'm pretty sure that happens within the first 1-2 weeks of development But I'm not entirely sure, I Did find this good article on how to care for eggs and hatchlings though. https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q ... J1utrhmhw6

Personally - I'd let the female produce a clutch of eggs and incubate and hatch the eggs, choose the best few as hold backs and sell or adopt out the remaining hatchlings at about 6 weeks old. IMO I Wouldn't start selling babies until they are around 6-8 inches of length because as the OP said, They have friends who want beardies, They have done their research right? (I Recommend them checking out this website) But Babies of 6-8 inches of length would be easier to care for then tiny, new, and VERY fragile hatchlings which need lots and lots of care some new owners may not be able to provide all the time. Just My Opinion. :)
Slave to three Beardies, one Crested gecko, a Ball Python, and a Cat. (R.I.P Thor & Cisco, You two will always be in our hearts).[Click image to enlarge]
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Re: 1 noob + 1 outdated veteran

Postby kingofnobbys » Tue Aug 14, 2018 7:18 am

My are you going to have your hands full and have some interesting dragon interactions ?
…. most beardies I've ever had at one time is 3 , but I also had 3 pet skinks at the same time as well , and so I was pretty busy, caring for everyone and giving everyone enough attention.
Good thing I'm retired and can give my scaly 4 legged buddies the time and attention they all deserve (and demand).

What you have is big step up from raw beginner and will be intense and hectic.

I'd be looking at breeding my own feeders and only buying insects to start off or make up for periods when you are running low.
Last edited by kingofnobbys on Tue Aug 14, 2018 7:25 am, edited 1 time in total.
CBDs: Puff (M)(RIP 10Dec2015 @ 3.2 yrs old (aneurism)),Rex (F)(RIP 16Mar2017 @ 4.6 yrs old,Toothless (M)(sudden unexplained death RIP 26Nov2017) @ 2.1 yrs old.Peppa (F) (born 15Nov2015).
EBTSs : George & Mildred (born july 2010).
EWSs : Lucky (M)(wild juvenile), cat attack rescue, fatal SI RIP 21Jul2010.Wriggles (F)(rescued injured),thought she was a big lizard, 7-8 yrs old, died in her sleep, RIP 2Feb2016). Fluffy (F) rescued 14Nov2017 about 4 yrs old . .
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Re: 1 noob + 1 outdated veteran

Postby anyalyssa » Tue Aug 14, 2018 7:23 am

kingofnobbys wrote:What you have is big step up from raw beginner and will be intense and hectic..

I'm new, but my BF has years of experience, and I've been doing a ton of research on new information. He has also bred feeder crickets, and we're to start breeding super worms.

Between his knowledge and my research abilities, we should be just fine. I've got the time and money, he's got the dedication and makes a great teacher, and we'll have the space in a years time.
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Re: 1 noob + 1 outdated veteran

Postby kingofnobbys » Tue Aug 14, 2018 7:31 am

anyalyssa wrote:
kingofnobbys wrote:What you have is big step up from raw beginner and will be intense and hectic..

I'm new, but my BF has years of experience, and I've been doing a ton of research on new information. He has also bred feeder crickets, and we're to start breeding super worms.
<<< I suggest he only uses superworms as treats , and breeds silkworms as an alternative staple feeder insect , they are much more nutritious than superworms .

A know of several beardie breeders (here in NSW, Vic, QLD and SA) who breed silkworms as feeders (and harvest and hatch silkworm eggs by the 10,000s to feed their hatchlings , as well as woodies (a form of roach) and crickets as feeders.

Between his knowledge and my research abilities, we should be just fine. I've got the time and money, he's got the dedication and makes a great teacher, and we'll have the space in a years time.
CBDs: Puff (M)(RIP 10Dec2015 @ 3.2 yrs old (aneurism)),Rex (F)(RIP 16Mar2017 @ 4.6 yrs old,Toothless (M)(sudden unexplained death RIP 26Nov2017) @ 2.1 yrs old.Peppa (F) (born 15Nov2015).
EBTSs : George & Mildred (born july 2010).
EWSs : Lucky (M)(wild juvenile), cat attack rescue, fatal SI RIP 21Jul2010.Wriggles (F)(rescued injured),thought she was a big lizard, 7-8 yrs old, died in her sleep, RIP 2Feb2016). Fluffy (F) rescued 14Nov2017 about 4 yrs old . .
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Re: 1 noob + 1 outdated veteran

Postby HippieLizards » Tue Aug 14, 2018 7:36 am

anyalyssa wrote:I said I don't want to get into commercial breeding, and right now, that's true because I can't do that where I'm living. But my boyfriend admitted to me that we wants to get back into it when we move next year, because we'll have the space.

By random chance, the closest Repticon to us happened this past weekend. After lots of careful consideration and reviewing of our finances, we made some adjustments and he made some sacrifices. Good idea, Talk to the experienced breeders for good advice on breeding. :)

I had a setup ready for a 4th dragon because I really want a pure white dragon, but true weros are expensive are hard to come by. Those ones are gorgeous :D Weros are a cross between a witblits and a zero (and a zero is a all white dragon as well).

The enclosure we had set aside for him to get a pied ball python was made into a 5th dragon enclosure, and we brought home a breeding pair from lines specifically bred to create weros.

Since it will be 18 months before we can even think of breeding them, we'll already have moved into a bigger place by then and be able to accommodate breeding dragons.

As turns out, all 3 of the dragons we already have posses some really unique and highly desired visual traits, although we don't know their lineage, which is another reason I didn't want to breed them commercially, because I can't tell you any flaws they might have. But the breeder we bought from this weekend past is interested in buying for a pet if we breed my hypo, since he's quite certain it will make visually stunning babies.

And I was correct on my pink and yellow hypo being female, and BF's citrus tiger blue bar being male. The one we were quite certain was male, is female. I would call her a "common", but she's actually a genetic stripe! My First beardie, Cisco is a Citrus tiger sandfire with possible het trans(or hypo, I can never remember which).

The two we just bought home come from established lines that were started from other established lines. I can get the history on these two, and I know that between them they posses the genetics for hypo, trans, zero, and witblit. Oh cool, Those would make some pretty pricey babies, What breeder did they come from?

The male is stunning. He's yellow/white cream color with silvery purplish bars amid charcoal grayish spots and whirls. He's het for hypo and witblit.

The female looks like a common, expect with pink spots instead of orange, and each pink spot has a tiny black dot in the middle. Her head is more yellowish with pink notes. She's het for trans and zero. Those both sound great, I Hope you can produce the weros you're hoping for.

(I could be backwards on which dragon has which traits, it's written down somewhere)


kingofnobbys wrote:My are you going to have your hands full and have some interesting dragon interactions ?
…. most beardies I've ever had at one time is 3 , but I also had 3 pet skinks at the same time as well , and so I was pretty busy, caring for everyone and giving everyone enough attention.
Good thing I'm retired and can give my scaly 4 legged buddies the time and attention they all deserve (and demand).

What you have is big step up from raw beginner and will be intense and hectic.

I'd be looking at breeding my own feeders and only buying insects to start off or make up for periods when you are running low.
I Do agree though, It seems like it would be a very hectic thing for a new herper.

The most beardies I've ever had was 4, Which was a bit difficult having to keep everyone fed and watered But I Was able to handle it, 4 or 5 beardies plus around 10 babies would be way too much to handle each day because The babies would need 3 feedings of around 40 bugs for each beardie (or as much as they can eat in a sitting) and Lots of good strong UVB, You would need to separate the bigger ones from the littler ones to prevent dominance issues and fighting, and Also good heat. It is a very hard job keeping up with hatchlings (not to mention the other adult beardies as well who would want attention).

I Have never bred beardies before, I am Not a breeder, I Have just done me research. :study: :study:
Last edited by HippieLizards on Thu Sep 27, 2018 8:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Slave to three Beardies, one Crested gecko, a Ball Python, and a Cat. (R.I.P Thor & Cisco, You two will always be in our hearts).[Click image to enlarge]
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Re: 1 noob + 1 outdated veteran

Postby anyalyssa » Tue Aug 14, 2018 7:52 am

kingofnobbys wrote:<<< I suggest he only uses superworms as treats , and breeds silkworms as an alternative staple feeder insect , they are much more nutritious than superworms .

A know of several beardie breeders (here in NSW, Vic, QLD and SA) who breed silkworms as feeders (and harvest and hatch silkworm eggs by the 10,000s to feed their hatchlings , as well as woodies (a form of roach) and crickets as feeders.


He always fed crickets to his dragons in the past, but the breeders here have all been telling us that super worms are better.

Have literally never heard or read a single mention of silk worms until now. I have heard of the roaches, but that they were better for young dragons. And I've heard that meal worms really aren't so great for them because they're pure chitin. (Sp?)

Where are you located? I don't know those abbreviations. I'm in South Eastern US.

I'll look into this, thanks for the information. I'm updating him with newer research as I find it. I'm going to learn everything before jumping into this.

I'm also a first time rat owner. After 15 years of wanting one and reading everything I could find, I still wasn't fully prepared, and I'm still learning things that only experience can teach, so I know breeding will be a process as well. But I'm committed to doing it right.

In fact, simply owning dragons has taught me things that I wouldn't have even thought about trying to research until I had a reason to after seeing it. No tells you about how they look like they're having a seizure when trying to pop a shed! That's just one example. Or how rats can sleep sitting up with their eyes open..... Ah the joys of pets!
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Re: 1 noob + 1 outdated veteran

Postby anyalyssa » Tue Aug 14, 2018 8:00 am

HippieLizards wrote:]Those ones are gorgeous :D Weros are a cross between a witblits and a zero (and a zero is a all white dragon as well).


From what I've read and understand, and was told by this breeder, witblits are patternless, zero are colorless. Zeros are white, but do still have patterning on top of the white.

A wero is completely totally pure white all over, with no patterning.

Breeding would be way too much for me to handle or deal with on my own. But my BF used to breed dragons, until he had to move and could no longer keep up with it. He's wanting to get back into it because I showed him a wero dragon, which didn't exist or was still unknown to him before.

Now it's a matter of researching to learn new information from after he stopped breeding.
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