What are the best substrates?

Status
Not open for further replies.

VenusAndSaturn

Sub-Adult Member
Yes, 8 year old me killed two dragons because I put one on sand for about 5-10 minutes before returning it to its home and then another dragon was put on sand for its entire life with me which was about 5 years. They both died of impaction.

But thats what happens when you listen to stupid people as a kid, you think they're the ones with the information, your parents think they're telling the truth but the next thing you know you have a dying dragon in your hands after returning home from school and you can't do anything to help it because it's already too far gone.

No one should have to experience that, no matter your age you should not experience something that you could have avoided.


I'm lecturing you because you should not risk something that can happen so easily. Its not worth it to risk a living things life just because you think that substrate is what your beardie needs when its not.
 

Tarbie

Member
VenusAndSaturn":34qjyyqc said:
Yes, 8 year old me killed two dragons because I put one on sand for about 5-10 minutes before returning it to its home and then another dragon was put on sand for its entire life with me which was about 5 years. They both died of impaction.

But thats what happens when you listen to stupid people as a kid, you think they're the ones with the information, your parents think they're telling the truth but the next thing you know you have a dying dragon in your hands after returning home from school and you can't do anything to help it because it's already too far gone.

No one should have to experience that, no matter your age you should not experience something that you could have avoided.


I'm lecturing you because you should not risk something that can happen so easily. Its not worth it to risk a living things life just because you think that substrate is what your beardie needs when its not.

That's very sad. It must have been a horrible experience on both counts.

But I can assure you I am not risking my bearded dragons life, why would I? I've thoroughly researched everything about Tony's habitat before every decision that I've made.

Tony poops most days and has never once suffered from impaction. I never feed him on the sand, and I've never once witnessed him licking the sand. At the first sign of a problem I would make a change because I am a responsible pet owner. It's also worth noting that at 18 months old he's a very healthy 600 grams and 19 inches in length. He's had a clean bill of health from the vet every time we've taken him in.

I really think you need to respect other people opinions a bit more and understand that what works for you and your pet, may not work for others.
 

Catzo

Member
VenusAndSaturn":16lyzgpr said:
The thing is though, just because you guys decided to risk your beardies lives and health why should we have a new owner do the same and then have them potentially watch as their dragon dies in their hands? No one should have that happen to them when cause of death could have been avoided.


Post by Tarbie » Sun Apr 08, 2018 11:33 am

Where is the risk?

As I said, Tony neither eats, nor poops in his viv. The sand gets changed every few months, and I'd change it straight away in the unlikely event that he pooped in it. Don't get me wrong, wouldn't have dreamt of using sand as a substrate when he was a baby.

Also worth bearing in mind that I live in Africa. We don't have Petco or anything like that, and our choice of supplies here is extremely limited.

Dunno where you get "little or no experience" from either. We've raised Tony since he was a hatchling without any serious health problems, and we research a lot. Me and my wife have also both kept reptiles before.

So yeah, maybe "pretty stupid" in your eyes. In reality, we've got a happy healthy beardie who's doing just fine thanks!

Also there are still risks, just because you don't feed him inside the viv doesn't mean he's not slowly building sand up in his stomach every time he licks something. Why even put a beardie on something they are not supposed to live on? Why does anyone still think that any desert species lives on a pile of sand in the wild?

Maybe you guys didnt research enough as impaction, prolapses, fungal infections, scale rot, joint issues, eye infections and bacteria breeding will still happen even when theres correct care. Even if he doesn't poop in his substrate theres still quite a bit of bacteria in that litter box that he's living in.

Post by dezismom » Sun Apr 08, 2018 10:48 am
he key is, use the calcium sand, not colored, and keep it clean and dry.

Calcium sand? Thats even worse than normal sand, and I should know I had both my first beardies die on it, the adult lasted a few years before dying and the baby didnt even last a week or so and it was only on it for about 5-10 minutes because we thought it should see the adult enclosure.

All of the research linking sand to impaction is more than a decade old. Back then we had limited knowledge of vitamin dosing, UVB light, and proper temperatures. But because the impaction myth has been around for so long its been ingrained in the hobby has fact for many people.
All of the studies done this century have shown that in adult beardies do not become impacted on sand alone. Inadequate dusting of feeder insects may cause them to try and eat the sand for calcium. Temps that are too low can hinder digestion and cause impaction. Not enough water can also do it. If your adult beardie becomes impacted on sand then your husbandry is bad and you shouldnt have a beardie anyways as something else likely as going to kill it anyways.

Definitely a no for a baby, but sand for an adult is fine. Slate tile is also excellent.
 
First and foremost, there is no debate on sand. The case has already been made and BOTTOM LINE it is dangerous. C'mon people, this should be common knowledge by now if you have done your 15 minutes of research. I am tired of seeing children or teenagers on youtube who have their bearded dragon on sand and not even taking the time to research about their "beloved" pet. I have noticed the people on this post who are currently using sand are saying things such as " im not endangering my pet, I would never do that" or saying "I've had mine on sand for years and it's still alive" and these are just not valid reasons. Yeah, congrats, your dragon is alive now, but slowly but surely there is a concrete brick forming inside of their intestines. And best case scenario, lets just say we are in a perfect world and your bearded dragon NEVER licks anything, never poops, or eats in its cage.. well that's nice but that still doesn't negate the fact that there is a storm of bacteria that is growing in the sand... Not to mention beardies are already highly susceptible to diseases that are caused by fungus or bacteria.. Also I think someone in the post said their beardy never licks, well I highly doubt you are able to watch it 24/7. But anyway, you would think when people hear the plethora of health risks that sand can give that they would use something else.. heck even go with a bare tank if need be. Is it that they think sand is aesthetically pleasing? I mean it seems like it would be a pain to clean out. Anyway, I am aware my tone here isn't on the nice side, but i'm tired of seeing the amount of people that I do see using sand. I don't know about you guys but I have had my little guy for 2 months now and I already have so much love for him it's unreal. I've had snakes and hamsters before, but this love is much stronger, and I could never imagine risking his life by putting him on sand.

Right, so you've killed 2 Bearded Dragons, and you're lecturing me on how to care for mine?!!

Brilliant! Ha ha
Also this made me cringe. He is sharing something personal with you to wake you up and make you realize sand will kill. Quit deflecting and open your eyes, hopefully you will change your mind.
 

Catzo

Member
Brittany26":2mplcuva said:
First and foremost, there is no debate on sand. The case has already been made and BOTTOM LINE it is dangerous. C'mon people, this should be common knowledge by now if you have done your 15 minutes of research. I am tired of seeing children or teenagers on youtube who have their bearded dragon on sand and not even taking the time to research about their "beloved" pet. I have noticed the people on this post who are currently using sand are saying things such as " im not endangering my pet, I would never do that" or saying "I've had mine on sand for years and it's still alive" and these are just not valid reasons. Yeah, congrats, your dragon is alive now, but slowly but surely there is a concrete brick forming inside of their intestines. And best case scenario, lets just say we are in a perfect world and your bearded dragon NEVER licks anything, never poops, or eats in its cage.. well that nice but that still doesn't negate the fact that there is a storm of bacteria that is growing in the sand... Not to mention beardies are already highly susceptible to diseases that are caused by fungus or bacteria.. Also I think someone in the post said their beardy never licks, well I highly doubt you are able to watch it 24/7. But anyway, you would think when people hear the plethora of health risks that sand can give that they would use something else.. heck even go with a bare tank if need be. Is it that they think sand is aesthetically pleasing? I mean it seems like it would be a pain to clean out. Anyway, I am aware my tone here isn't on the nice side, but i'm tired of seeing the amount of people that I do see using sand. I don't know about you guys but I have had my little guy for 2 months now and I already have so much love for him it's unreal. I've had snakes and hamsters before, but this love is much stronger, and I could never imagine risking his life by putting him on sand.

Right, so you've killed 2 Bearded Dragons, and you're lecturing me on how to care for mine?!!

Brilliant! Ha ha
Also this made me cringe. He is sharing something personal with you to wake you up and make you realize sand will kill. Quit deflecting and open your eyes, hopefully you will change your mind.

But its just not true...

I dont know what I can say to convince you so im going to quote someone from another forum that summed this issue up well.

"The stories about loose substrate being an impaction risk are mostly linked to two main reasons, either the substrate choice is unsuitable for the species, for example using wood chip or corn husk for bearded dragons, or the animal itself isnt properly being cared for, normally meaning improper heating, nutrition or hydration.
Some loose substrates are simply unsuitable for a species because of that animals eating habits and the size of the substrate. Things like wood chips get stuck in their gut and are very difficult to digest, things like corn husk are also difficult to digest and can absorb water and swell causing blockages.
With regards to how care can lead to impaction, if the animal doesnt have proper heat to aid digestion, or a poor diet leading to poor digestive health, then it cant deal with the ingested substrate and pass it through, and water is a huge component to this in terms of how it will soften fecal matter and contribute to the digestive process.
As pointed out already, these animals come from environments where loose bark, pebbles, sand, soil/dirt make up their surroundings, they are evolved to live in that environment. But with that you also have to provide the other environmental factors that go alongside it that their bodies are evolved to function properly within.
With all reptiles, you should be thinking about what their natural environment is like and trying to create something that provides those same factors as best you can, and using a substrate that mimics where they come from is part of that and goes towards enriching their environment and improving their lives.
You can play it safe and give a sterile environment, but there really is no need unless the animal itself has specific conditions and requires some sort of intensive care (be it illness or recovery), loose substrates do not pose a risk AS LONG AS you are properly caring for and providing for the animal, which in itself is a far greater risk to its health if you are not doing things right.
Impaction is a symptom of incorrect care and provision, not a illness caused by "bad" substrates."

The bottom line is- healthy reptile, no impaction risk. Unhealthy reptile, some impaction risk. So if you consider yourself a bad pet owner and believe you are not caring for your beardie properly, do not use sand.
 

diamc

BD.org Sicko
Staff member
Moderator
Ok, let's not let this get out of hand. posted by moderator

Not only is loose substrate an impaction risk, it's impossible to clean up all their liquid waste so anything left behind, breeds bacteria which is deadly to bearded dragons. Plus it is very dusty.

Calci-sand is the worst. It contains calcium so it encourages them to lick it then it builds up over time and becomes like cement in their intestines making it impossible to pass, so the dragon dies. :( Take a little calci-sand and add a little water to it, I think you will be shocked as to how hard it gets.

There are much safer & better alternatives so why risk it. Textured tiles (help keep their nails filed down), NON-adhesive shelf liner, reptile carpet (hard to clean), newspaper or paper towels are the safest.

(Moved here from General Discussion forum)
 
@Catzo
Take some sand an get it wet, it clumps, no matter the diet. Not sure if that person you used in your post is an actual expert or not, so I used my college's library and found an academic journal on bearded dragons; It is a study on 529 dragons that takes a look at common diseases
( SCHMIDT-UKAJ, S., HOCHLEITHNER, M., RICHTER, B., HOCHLEITHNER, C., BRANDSTETTER, D., & KNOTEK, Z. (2017). A survey of diseases in captive bearded dragons: a retrospective study of 529 patients. Veterinární Medicína, 62(9), 508.)

Not sure if you will be able to access it or not since it is a private library. Out of the 529, over 42 percent developed gastrointestinal tract and liver disease (GITL). "Diseases of the GITL (42.67%), such as endoparasitic infection, constipation, sand ingestion, tympany and meteorism, were the most common diseases presenting in the captive bearded dragons" These dragons weren't in bad care, either. They stated they were "fed a mixed diet of insects and greens" (Schmidt). They were in good hands within European Clinics.

Also, you seem to keep focusing on impaction yet keep ignoring the fact that sand harbors harmful
bacteria and can also cause eye inflammation. They also don't even live on sand in Australia (a very small amount), and yes it is true that the wild BD's are surrounded by small indigestible substrates like dirt/pebbles/sand ect, but their life spans are also 2-4 years. I have already witnessed enough death stories on this forum and through real life to change my mind. Even if my bearded dragon was the most healthiest one it still wouldn't be worth it to me to risk his life.
 
Matang613":2sidc8e3 said:
I'm a new beardie owner, and I don't really have any strong opinions about substrate, but if there truly is any sort of risk involved with loose substrate, then I'm not willing to take it. Especially not with my juvenile. People advocating for loose substrate have definitely been in the minority, in my novice experience. The fact that pet shops advocate for its usage as well does not inspire any confidence in it for me, personally.

You can claim healthy beardies don't get impacted all you want, but the study that Brittany26 provided states otherwise, and I will definitely take a properly controlled study over rote experience. There's a reason we trust allopathic medicine over anecdotally claimed home remedies: because sheer experience is not as valuable as controlled evidence.

Good luck with your new beardy and thank you for not using sand. The reason I was getting slight hostile in my earlier post was for this exact reason, new bearded dragon users would read this post and mistakenly think sand was a good substrate. It is true I don't like losing arguments ( :study: ), but my true motive was to stop the spread of bad info so that new comers aren't confused
 

Tarbie

Member
Catzo":1p7b6vgr said:
But its just not true...

I dont know what I can say to convince you so im going to quote someone from another forum that summed this issue up well.

"The stories about loose substrate being an impaction risk are mostly linked to two main reasons, either the substrate choice is unsuitable for the species, for example using wood chip or corn husk for bearded dragons, or the animal itself isnt properly being cared for, normally meaning improper heating, nutrition or hydration.
Some loose substrates are simply unsuitable for a species because of that animals eating habits and the size of the substrate. Things like wood chips get stuck in their gut and are very difficult to digest, things like corn husk are also difficult to digest and can absorb water and swell causing blockages.
With regards to how care can lead to impaction, if the animal doesnt have proper heat to aid digestion, or a poor diet leading to poor digestive health, then it cant deal with the ingested substrate and pass it through, and water is a huge component to this in terms of how it will soften fecal matter and contribute to the digestive process.
As pointed out already, these animals come from environments where loose bark, pebbles, sand, soil/dirt make up their surroundings, they are evolved to live in that environment. But with that you also have to provide the other environmental factors that go alongside it that their bodies are evolved to function properly within.
With all reptiles, you should be thinking about what their natural environment is like and trying to create something that provides those same factors as best you can, and using a substrate that mimics where they come from is part of that and goes towards enriching their environment and improving their lives.
You can play it safe and give a sterile environment, but there really is no need unless the animal itself has specific conditions and requires some sort of intensive care (be it illness or recovery), loose substrates do not pose a risk AS LONG AS you are properly caring for and providing for the animal, which in itself is a far greater risk to its health if you are not doing things right.
Impaction is a symptom of incorrect care and provision, not a illness caused by "bad" substrates."

The bottom line is- healthy reptile, no impaction risk. Unhealthy reptile, some impaction risk. So if you consider yourself a bad pet owner and believe you are not caring for your beardie properly, do not use sand.

Thank you.

It's good to see someone else on here with a sensible, balanced opinion. Clearly you have taken the time to study all of the facts.

It's also important to note that in an adult dragon, impaction is typically not something which happens overnight. It's normally gradual process over time, particularly if we are talking about sand build up as the main culprit. I feed Tony, and I also clear up after him when he poops. I keep a mental note of what goes in, what comes out and I weigh him once a week. If I saw a problem occurring, I'd change the substrate.

Also, what is all this talk on this thread about bacteria? Tony never poops in his viv, and if he did I'd change the sand. He is also cleaned before being put back in the viv when he poops. He also doesn't have a water bowl in his Viv. So where is this bacteria coming from? I clean his viv with disinfectant (bought from the pet store) every time I change his sand. It's a clean environment. This is proven by the fact he's never had an infection or any serious health problem for that matter.

Last point. In the wild, do you think these creatures aren't exposed to loose sand? Of course they are, they are desert creatures. If you think they've evolved to keel over and die at the very smallest grain of sand finding its way into their digestive system then you're very much mistaken. A small amount of sand on it's own isn't going to kill them, or even hurt them in fact. It's normally one of a combination of factors (including improper lighting/heating, dehydration or improper diet in general) that leads to impaction.

I'll finish by saying that I think it's great that people on here are trying to prevent new bearded dragon owners for making bad decisions. I also agree that loose substrate for a juvenile is a big no. But let's try and stop spreading misinformation .
 

NoahC

Member
Original Poster
Brittany26":3b8761id said:
First and foremost, there is no debate on sand. The case has already been made and BOTTOM LINE it is dangerous. C'mon people, this should be common knowledge by now if you have done your 15 minutes of research. I am tired of seeing children or teenagers on youtube who have their bearded dragon on sand and not even taking the time to research about their "beloved" pet. I have noticed the people on this post who are currently using sand are saying things such as " im not endangering my pet, I would never do that" or saying "I've had mine on sand for years and it's still alive" and these are just not valid reasons. Yeah, congrats, your dragon is alive now, but slowly but surely there is a concrete brick forming inside of their intestines. And best case scenario, lets just say we are in a perfect world and your bearded dragon NEVER licks anything, never poops, or eats in its cage.. well that's nice but that still doesn't negate the fact that there is a storm of bacteria that is growing in the sand... Not to mention beardies are already highly susceptible to diseases that are caused by fungus or bacteria.. Also I think someone in the post said their beardy never licks, well I highly doubt you are able to watch it 24/7. But anyway, you would think when people hear the plethora of health risks that sand can give that they would use something else.. heck even go with a bare tank if need be. Is it that they think sand is aesthetically pleasing? I mean it seems like it would be a pain to clean out. Anyway, I am aware my tone here isn't on the nice side, but i'm tired of seeing the amount of people that I do see using sand. I don't know about you guys but I have had my little guy for 2 months now and I already have so much love for him it's unreal. I've had snakes and hamsters before, but this love is much stronger, and I could never imagine risking his life by putting him on sand.

Right, so you've killed 2 Bearded Dragons, and you're lecturing me on how to care for mine?!!

Brilliant! Ha ha
Also this made me cringe. He is sharing something personal with you to wake you up and make you realize sand will kill. Quit deflecting and open your eyes, hopefully you will change your mind.


Thanks for the advice.. I have definitely decided against using sand and I'm going to carry on using paper towels until hes a couple months older and will probably go for tile :)
 

kingofnobbys

BD.org Sicko
Late to this - one thing I want to inject - some very vocal "expert" keepers here in Australia also fall into the sand is great as substrate and advocate very vocally on the Australian Bearded Dragon and the Australian Pythons message board the routine use of packaged "desert sand" = essentially beach sand with ochre added to colourise it or Bunnings PlaySand.

Most of these people have never actually been in the natural range inhabited by bearded dragons except for eastern bearded dragons (being based along the east coast and south coast of Australia and they fall in for myth that the interior of Australia is vast sandy desert - I've been there and worked and lived there and it is not , only about 5% of the interior is sandy (I calculated this based on geological information a couple of years ago and posted my results in a thread here.)
Extract from this thread
The centre of Australia is not all a sand desert , nor is even a small part and the Central Bearded Dragon's natural range see

http://pogopogona.com/content/uploads/w ... e-from.png



,see https://www.google.com.au/maps/place/Ul ... !1e1?hl=en

and

https://www.google.com.au/maps/place/Ca ... !1e1?hl=en
This is typical of central bearded dragon terrain , which includes tropical sevannahs , spinefix grasslands, dry tropical woodlands, and some areas of sandy desert. The most common ground is weathered clay (bull dust).


and

https://www.google.com.au/maps/place/Ki ... 42c0?hl=en
that's red clayish soil you see NOT sand.


and getting towards the southern extent of their range
https://www.google.com.au/maps/place/Mo ... !1e1?hl=en
that's red ochre soil.

Please - don't use the commercial sands sold , if you must use sand - use Screened dry play-sand , it's more got more rounded grains less likely to clump.

Better still - don't.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Members online

Latest resources

Latest posts

Latest profile posts

I miss you so much, Amaris 💔
What is a quick way to warm up a cold beardie? His heating element went out overnight and now he's very cold.
Pearl Girl wrote on moorelori1966's profile.
i feel so sad reading your about me 😢
Clapton is acclimating okay I think. He's quick as lightning so I'm not sure how much I should bring him out of his house yet. He's not at all interested in his salad though. I wonder if I should change what I'm giving him. Least he's eating his crickets.

Things to do:
Buy calcium powder
Material to raise surface for basking spot
Scenery decals for back of tank

Forum statistics

Threads
155,903
Messages
1,255,709
Members
75,967
Latest member
Newbeardiemom09
Top Bottom