Juvenile Bearded Dragon with Poor Prognosis given from Vet?

This forum is for urgent health concerns, where your beardie seems very ill and you need immediate help!

Juvenile Bearded Dragon with Poor Prognosis given from Vet?

Postby xHagiaSophia » Mon Jun 18, 2018 5:35 pm

We have a five month old bearded dragon we call Arbiter. We bought him from the local pet sense when he was three months old. He has issues with his back legs and balance as well as walking on his front paws, I think it is called gorilla walking. We have changed his lighting to the reptisun 10 from the coil that came with his tank. He also has a heat lamp. He is in a 20 gallon tank right now. His temps are around 100-105 in the basking spot and 85 in the cool area. Anyway, we took him to the vet today because of his balance problems. His balance issues show up worse when he is chasing crickets. He will sometimes fall over a little or his back legs will seize up and kinda fly in the air after he chases them for a little while. He is very active though and very observant. He likes to run and play and he climbs pretty well. He is also very social, likes to be held or lay on the bed beside us, climb us, etc..He has a bugs game he also likes to "play" on my laptop. Anyway, So the vet today said he has a severe case of parasites. he said he has Giardia, Pinworms and Coccidia. He also says that Arbiter has neurological problems - the vet claims our dragons mouth is droopy- but we do not see it. And the vet said that Arbiter also has had spinal break or fracture in the past and has MBD. We were sure he has MBD and have been dusting his crickets once a day, as well as doing cal with d3 two times a week and a multi vitamin two times a week.

So anyway, the vet checked a fecal test and then gave Arbiter a calcium shot, and gave him a dose of FENBENDAZOLE. He did not do any Xrays..Arbiter is suppose to go back next week for another dose and then the vet said he will see about giving him something else for the other parasites. What concerns us is the vet seemed wrong about everything else. He said for us NOT to mist our dragon although the sheet he sent us home with says for us to mist him as we have been doing. The vet also said to use the coil rather than the reptisun 10 and to bump his temps up to 120 in the basking spot. This goes against everything we have read that says different. We are worried about the competence of the vet and want opinions? Also the vet said our dragons prognosis is so so..He may die, he may not..we have to wait and see. He will need multiple treatments to see the outcome and for us NOT to handle him or hold him anymore right now.

One last thing, he also told us that urate is NOT the urine but something else form the liver and water in Arbiters poop is the urine...As far as we know this is not correct. So it just has us wondering if we should go back to this guy, check with another vet, or get the worm meds ourselves, If he is giving accurate info or if he is using scare tactics for us to bring Arbiter back over and over again? I want Arbiter to live and be healthy so it is not an issue with him being seen or treated, but I want to make sure he is being seen by someone who knows what they are talking about and not using him to get paid.

I can get some pictures or a video of him tomorrow if needed.

Edit- here are some older pictures below..I will get new ones tomorrow if needed.

This one is from three months old:
[Click image to enlarge]

[Click image to enlarge]

He was shedding. He has shedded twice since we had him.

This one is from a month ago:

[Click image to enlarge]


[Click image to enlarge]
xHagiaSophia
Newbie Poster
 
Posts: 22
Joined: Mon Jun 18, 2018 3:25 pm
- Advertisement -
- Advertisement -

Re: Juvenile Bearded Dragon with Poor Prognosis given from V

Postby Drache613 » Mon Jun 18, 2018 10:48 pm

Hello,

Arbiter is a cutie. He does look to have some bone issues. Hopefully with proper UVB &
calcium supplementation he will recover. Did the vet not give a liquid calcium for you to
give to him at home? A calcium shot can be helpful but should be given with care when
they are very critical.
You will want to continue to use the Reptisun 10 tube bulb, placed at 6- or so inches from
him. If possible you could consider upgrading to the T5 tube which is a higher UVB output
for him. He might recover more quickly. Do you have a screen top & is the tube mounted
on top of or underneath of the screen & directly overhead? You were correct in changing
from the compact/coil they are not very good.
The Panacur is ok to be given to him, if he had pinworms, but do not let him give ANY type
of Ivermectin/Ivomec type of dewormer, it could kill him. Did he say how bad the coccidia
was? If it is a high level, then treatment may be needed but please ask for Toltrazuril or
Ponazuril (same thing) instead of using any type of Sulfa based drugs for coccidia. He is
critical & doesn't need stress on his kidneys & liver from medications.
I would highly recommend starting him on a liquid calcium supplement instead of powder
right now, because it's absorbed more easily.
Be careful in letting him climb too high so he doesn't fall & hurt himself with his bones
being in a weakened state. Keep his basking area low so he doesn't have to work too hard
to climb up.
Misting him is fine, but, be sure it is done outside of his tank so it doesn't build up too much
moisture which contributes to mold & fungus growth. The basking area should only be at a
range of 95-110 max, but definitely not 120! That can cause overheating & possible death.
l agree, that is frustrating when the vet recommends incorrect husbandry advice.
You can still handle him, but, carefully. :D
Let us know how he is doing.

Tracie
User avatar
Drache613
Moderator
Moderator
 
Posts: 36988
Joined: Fri Feb 10, 2006 9:33 pm
Location: May, Texas

Re: Juvenile Bearded Dragon with Poor Prognosis given from V

Postby xHagiaSophia » Tue Jun 19, 2018 5:41 am

Thank you for replying so quickly. I took some pictures of him and his set up again this morning.

My husband replaced the screen on top of the terrarium a few weeks ago and built this instead:

[Click image to enlarge]


[Click image to enlarge]


So the UVB wont be absorbed by the screen that came with the tank.

This is Arbiter this morning:

[Click image to enlarge]


We had replaced his other rock with this one last week because the other one was smaller. This one is lower but may not be low enough? He likes to bask on it all day. He usually has his back legs stretched out basking.

[Click image to enlarge]


[Click image to enlarge]


[Click image to enlarge]


[Click image to enlarge]


You can see in some of the images above his back legs, how they lay weird like lay forward sometimes. He will get up and walk on them but as I said sometimes when we move him on his rock they will seize up and fly in the air, like he is off balance, or when chasing crickets they will do the same thing after he has been running for a few minutes.

I am not sure what the vet is wanting to give him for the other two parasites/worms..Will the FENBENDAZOLE kill Giardia as well as pinworms? but wont kill the coccidia right? The vet did NOT say what count was on any of them he just said he had a severe case of all three worms, had neurological problems and what he called "Very advanced MBD" and they went on that Arbiter may die..So it was shocking and depressing because we do not want him to die. Also the vet did not observe Arbiter walking or anything either. The majority of the time Arbiter was under his blankets with just his head sticking out. So I am not sure if he even gave Arbiter a good look over. We were sure he had MBD. My husband and I have been reading up on it, following the forums here (or lurking until now), which is why we bought the reptisun 10 and the calcium power and cal with d3. We will get him calcium liquid today. Do you know of any good wormers we can buy to give to him ourselves instead of going back to this vet or would you recommend finding a new vet to do the worming? Do you think a probiotic would help him if added to his diet as well? Anything recommended we would appreciate so we can get him better.

EDIT: My husband just feed him and his back legs look worse than ever this morning. Maybe soreness from the calcium shot or something?
xHagiaSophia
Newbie Poster
 
Posts: 22
Joined: Mon Jun 18, 2018 3:25 pm

Re: Juvenile Bearded Dragon with Poor Prognosis given from V

Postby xHagiaSophia » Tue Jun 19, 2018 9:33 am

We got a video of him walking this afternoon:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Fe7S8f ... dex=2&t=0s
xHagiaSophia
Newbie Poster
 
Posts: 22
Joined: Mon Jun 18, 2018 3:25 pm

Re: Juvenile Bearded Dragon with Poor Prognosis given from V

Postby Drache613 » Tue Jun 19, 2018 10:26 pm

Hello,

Poor Arbiter, he does have a hard time walking.
The hardware cloth for the top is a great idea. Though, you are using the Reptisun 10, but
a compact/coil light?
You will need a long tube bulb instead. I highly recommend getting the T5 Reptisun 10 or
Arcadia set up. He has advanced metabolic bone disease & needs a strong UVB. Those
compact/coil lights just wont give him what he needs, they are weak & don't distribute the
UVB evenly at all.
If you wanted to treat for worms, Panacur is usually the best. You can also use Strongid, also.
For coccidia, Toltrazuril/Ponazuril are the best. In his condition I would avoid harsh meds so
it doesn't throw his system out of kilter. Giardia isn't treated by any of those meds, but Flagyl
is effective against it.
Were you able to find any liquid calcium for him?
You can definitely get him a probiotic to help with his appetite. Bee pollen is always a good
supplement for helping with appetite stimulation & immune system boosting, too.
He is a nice looking little dragon. I hope he can make a recovery for you.
Let us know how he is doing.

Tracie
User avatar
Drache613
Moderator
Moderator
 
Posts: 36988
Joined: Fri Feb 10, 2006 9:33 pm
Location: May, Texas

Re: Juvenile Bearded Dragon with Poor Prognosis given from V

Postby xHagiaSophia » Wed Jun 20, 2018 8:47 am

The reptisun we have is the tube. We changed from the coil not long after we got him. Do you have anywhere to recommend to get those items from? I know you have a website, do you carrying any of those items? We have not gotten liquid calcium yet because all we could find here was the one from petsmart and are trying to find out if it is good. We also ordered him dubia roaches this time instead of crickets because we are reading they have more protein and calcium but we will continue to dust them as well. Do you have any idea from the video IF Arbiter has a droopy lip or neurological disorder as the vet says? Or just advanced MBD in your opinion? We made an appointment as well with another vet for this Saturday. This one owns reptiles herself even so I will for sure continue to follow up and let you know how he is doing. Pancur is the FENBENDAZOLE correct? And thank you so much for replying.
xHagiaSophia
Newbie Poster
 
Posts: 22
Joined: Mon Jun 18, 2018 3:25 pm

Re: Juvenile Bearded Dragon with Poor Prognosis given from V

Postby xHagiaSophia » Thu Jun 21, 2018 3:51 pm

To update you, we went on and took him early to the another exotic vet. I called right before lunch today because he was acting so tired. She took him in and we left him for her to observe him for a while. On the other vet, she said this must be the ONLY reptile the other vet has ever seen lol..Anyway, she did an xray and said his bones are not white but are rather gray so he has MBD..But no breaks or fractures. She said he also does have coccidia and it is REALLY high. But the pinworms not to worry about or the Giardia. She did not like the wormer the other vet gave him or that fact that he did not do xrays or send him home with liquid calcium. She said to keep the reptisun 10 tube of course and that these levels of coccidia and the calcium is most likely what is wrong with him but he can recover but it will be slow. She sent him a new wormer for him to take today and then in 48 hours. She also said there is a slight chance he has ADV but that is just in the back of him mind and these two issues are what is there for sure and to tackle first. She is going to see him again in a month to check the coccidia levels and the calcium. She did not like crickets too much as well and was telling us the switch to dubias is much better and to get this guy to start eating his greens as well. He does seem perkier this evening. So hopefully he will start feeling better and I will keep you posted of what happens. Thank you so much for helping.
xHagiaSophia
Newbie Poster
 
Posts: 22
Joined: Mon Jun 18, 2018 3:25 pm

Re: Juvenile Bearded Dragon with Poor Prognosis given from V

Postby CooperDragon » Fri Jun 22, 2018 10:04 am

It sounds like this vet is a much better fit. Hopefully the coccidia will get under control soon. Did the vet give Ponazuril? That tends to be pretty effective and not too harsh. Do be sure to clean and sanitize everything that comes in contact with poop using an ammonia/water mixture for a while to help prevent re-infection.

As for the MBD, using a high quality UVB light is important to allow nutrient absorption. Are you using the T8 or T5 tube now? How far above the basing area is it? In addition to calcium dusted bugs I suggest offering some black soldier fly larvae as they have a relatively high calcium content and might be helpful as well.
Image
User avatar
CooperDragon
BD.org Sicko
 
Posts: 22472
Joined: Thu Mar 27, 2014 8:41 am
Location: Iowa City, IA
- Advertisement -
- Advertisement -

Re: Juvenile Bearded Dragon with Poor Prognosis given from V

Postby Drache613 » Fri Jun 22, 2018 11:39 am

Hello,

I agree, this vet sounds more informed so that is great news. Oh poor thing, so he does have
metabolic bone disease, but at least he hasn't hurt himself then.
The giardia or pinworms shouldn't bother him if it's in low levels. Which meds did they give for
the coccidia levels since they were so high?
I am sure the liquid calcium & the new tube bulb will help him out a lot. It will take him awhile
to recover but hopefully he can make a full recovery. I hope he is feeling better!
Definitely keep us updated on his progress, we are all pulling for him.

Tracie
User avatar
Drache613
Moderator
Moderator
 
Posts: 36988
Joined: Fri Feb 10, 2006 9:33 pm
Location: May, Texas

Re: Juvenile Bearded Dragon with Poor Prognosis given from V

Postby Taterbug » Fri Jun 22, 2018 12:51 pm

Glad you found a better vet!

Will they treat the giardia later or do they expect it to go away once his immune system gets stronger? Giardia is potentially transmitible to humans, so take care with hygiene. Practice good hand washing, no baths in the kitchen sink etc. keeping the enclosure well cleaned will also help with the coccidia treatment.
User avatar
Taterbug
BD.org Addict
 
Posts: 5749
Joined: Mon Jul 01, 2013 9:13 am
Location: Central Ohio

Re: Juvenile Bearded Dragon with Poor Prognosis given from V

Postby xHagiaSophia » Sat Jun 23, 2018 5:17 am

This vet said she did not test for Giardia. She said he did not have abnormal levels of pinworms, but the first vet did give him meds for that on Monday. This vet gave him Ponazuril for the coccidia. She was not concerned with the pinworms of the Giardia. She was worried about his bones, the coccidia and what she said was low possibility of ADV. I will ask her at his check up to test him again for Giardia if that is something we should do. He did show improvements yesterday already. Maybe from the Ponazuril. He has another dose of it tonight. He was lifting himself more off his elbows yesterday. He has not done that in a while. And he was wanting to walk more. We removed everything from his enclosure. No rocks or anything for him to climb right now so he wont fall off and hurt himself. His tube is a reptisun t8 tube 24 inch. It is on top of a hardware cloth enclosure top my husband made for him about 11 inches from the basking area since it is now the floor of the enclosure as we took the rocks out like I said. I will also get him some of the soldier fly larvae. His Dubia roaches came yesterday and he ate about 8 of those like they were the best thing he ever had lol. Should we move the UVB a little closer to him?
xHagiaSophia
Newbie Poster
 
Posts: 22
Joined: Mon Jun 18, 2018 3:25 pm

Re: Juvenile Bearded Dragon with Poor Prognosis given from V

Postby Drache613 » Sat Jun 23, 2018 10:37 pm

Hello,

That is good news he seems to be feeling a little better & holding himself up more. The
Ponazuril isn't real harsh on them so he shouldn't have any negative side effects from it.
You could try to mount the Reptisun 10 tube a little closer to him, or directly underneath
of the top. The hardware cloth should easily allow for you to attach the fixture to some
wire.
That's great he ate some dubia also! I hope he is feeling better soon. Keep us posted on
him & his progress.

Tracie
User avatar
Drache613
Moderator
Moderator
 
Posts: 36988
Joined: Fri Feb 10, 2006 9:33 pm
Location: May, Texas

Re: Juvenile Bearded Dragon with Poor Prognosis given from V

Postby xHagiaSophia » Mon Jun 25, 2018 3:13 pm

He already seems to have more energy but is still having a lot of leg spams in his back legs. I will keep you guys updated. Thank you guys so much for all the info.
xHagiaSophia
Newbie Poster
 
Posts: 22
Joined: Mon Jun 18, 2018 3:25 pm

Re: Juvenile Bearded Dragon with Poor Prognosis given from V

Postby Drache613 » Tue Jun 26, 2018 8:28 pm

Hello,

I'm glad he seems to have a little more energy. How is his eating coming along?
I hope he is feeling better, poor guy, the spasms can't feel good.
Keep us posted on him.

Tracie
User avatar
Drache613
Moderator
Moderator
 
Posts: 36988
Joined: Fri Feb 10, 2006 9:33 pm
Location: May, Texas

Re: Juvenile Bearded Dragon with Poor Prognosis given from V

Postby xHagiaSophia » Wed Jun 27, 2018 4:54 am

His appetite is great. He loves the dubia roaches and he finally ate some collards the other day. He has been really picky and only wanting to eat butternut squash. He did not eat as much yesterday but his tail and his arms are about to shed again. He is actually holding himself up normal again too. Not on the back of his front paws like before or gorilla walking. But the back leg spasms and clumsiness is still there just not as bad. I am hoping it is all MBD related and still improves more and more over time so that the vet wont have to look at ADV. I don't think he has that but she said it was in the back of her mind but not to worry about it right now. Otherwise he is really doing great. I will get another video today or tomorrow and post it here so you guys can see how much better he is already walking.
xHagiaSophia
Newbie Poster
 
Posts: 22
Joined: Mon Jun 18, 2018 3:25 pm
- Advertisement -
- Advertisement -

Next

Return to Beardie ER

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google Adsense [Bot]