Beardies Eye Rolling!

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Beardies Eye Rolling!

Postby Za941 » Fri Feb 23, 2018 1:24 am

Hi,

I got my 2 month old 2 weeks ago and she's been shedding since and eating minimal, I dialled this down to relocation and shedding stress. She's in the last stages of her shed now and refuses to eat, a week ago I noticed her eye doing this weird rolling and twitching. Ive been feeding her calcium, carrot,squash and chicken baby food and then she was 100% ok. Now in the last stages of her shedding she can't even open her eye. Every time she does it opens for a second rolls back and she shuts it. Otherwise she's really active. Her husbandry is 100 on the hot side and 80-70 on the cool. How can I help her??
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Re: Beardies Eye Rolling!

Postby Blm216 » Fri Feb 23, 2018 6:00 am

When Bearded Dragons shed they will puff out their eyes to shed them as well. Yet, this is not constant and that doesn't explain the eating problem. The main thing to remember is that reptiles are completely different from us mammals and what seems crazy to us is normal for them. However, if you feel the need to do so you can call a vet and explain the problem. They will generally help without a visit, though they will push for it. :lol:

Can you add a picture?
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Re: Beardies Eye Rolling!

Postby EllenD » Fri Feb 23, 2018 9:18 am

Welcome to the forum, and congrats on your new family member!

First of all, the "eye rolling" is most likely his third-eyelid that you're seeing, it is kind of upsetting if you don't know what it is, lol. When they shed it can irritate their eyes quite a bit. And though you should never, ever, ever, ever pull off any loose shed from any part of their body at all and you should never, ever attempt to "help him" get ANY shed off, when it comes to the area around their eyes, if you see that he has any loose pieces of shed hanging around his eyes, you can very, very gently use your hand to try to "wipe" it away. DO NOT GRAB LOOSE SHED AND PULL IT OFF, but simply use your thumb to try to gently wipe any loose, hanging shed away from around his eyes. Other than doing that, he just has to get through the shed, which he will.

While they can be irritated by a shed and this can sometimes effect their appetites and their energy levels, if his body is done shedding and he's still not eating at this point, it sounds to me like you very likely have some husbandry issues with his lighting, temperatures, etc. that are effecting his appetite and behavior. Inadequate lighting is the #1 cause of these kind of issues in new owners with new babies, and can also cause eye irritation and issues. So since you have only had him a short time, it's extremely important to go over your husbandry to make sure that he's not starting to suffer from a Calcium Deficiency due to inadequate UVB/UVA lighting or improper temperature zones.

What a lot of new owners don't understand is that most Calcium Deficiencies and MBD are not caused by the Dragon not taking-in enough Calcium, but rather due to them not getting adequate UVB light, which prevents their bodies from absorbing any of the calcium they are taking-in, and so they just excrete all the calcium you give them. The very first signs/symptoms of the start of a Calcium Deficiency are lack of appetite, lethargy, and then the twitching/tremors...So it's a really good idea for you to first use the "User Image Uploader" in the TaskBar at the top of the page to upload some photos of your dragon, and then also of his entire tank/enclosure that also show how you have his lighting set-up.

Then if you could answer some basic questions for us about your lighting, temps, and diet, we can help you get any issues you have straightened out now before they cause any serious problems, which can happen within only a month or so, so it's good that you're doing this now, while he's still very young and hasn't been under the wrong lighting, temps, etc. for very long. (THE INFORMATION ON YOUR LIGHTS WILL BE PRINTED DIRECTLY ON THE LIGHTS THEMSELVES)

-Exactly what UVB light do you have for him, meaning the Brand, Wattage, and type (is it a Compact bulb, and Coil/Spiral Bulb, or a long, fluorescent Tube?
-Do you have the UVB light on top of a mesh lid to the tank?
-How many inches is your UVB light from your Dragon's Basking Spot/Platform?
-How many hours each day do you leave both the UVB and the Basking Light on?

-What size of tank is your Dragon in?
-What substrate do you have in the bottom of his tank?
-What is the wattage and the color of light emitted by your Dragon's Basking Bulb?

-What is your Dragon's regular, daily diet?
-How many times a week do you give him Calcium? A Multivitamin? Which ones do you use?

*****I possibly see a HUGE issue right off the bat with the temperature zones inside his tank...You listed only 2 temperatures, one for the Cool Side of 70-80 degrees F, and then one of 100 degrees on the Hot Side. I'm going to assume that you probably have 1 or 2 of those Stick-On Thermometers that are stuck to the glass of the tank on each side, or maybe you only have 1 and you move it back and forth to check each side of the tank...If this is the case and you are only using some kind of Stick-On Thermometer to measure these 2 temperatures, then these are both Ambient or Air Temperatures that you're measuring, because obviously the Stick-On Thermometers can only measure the temperature of the Air around them. They cannot at all measure any Surface Temperatures. Your Dragon's Basking Spot/Platform Temperature is not an Air Temperature, it's a Surface Temperature, which should make sense, it's the temperature of the surface of the rock, piece of wood, ceramic basking platform, etc. that your Dragon lays on while basking. THE ONLY WAY YOU CAN MEASURE YOUR DRAGON'S BASKING SPOT/PLATFORM SURFACE TEMPERATURE IS WITH EITHER A TEMPERATURE GUN, OR MORE COMMONLY A $10 DIGITAL THERMOMETER THAT HAS A PROBE ON A WIRE...

*****So here's the major problem you may have with his temperature zones that I'm talking about...If I'm correct and that 100 degrees F you are measuring in the Hot Side of his tank is being read on any kind of Stick-On Thermometer and not either a Gun or a Probe Thermometer, then that is NOT his "Basking Spot Temperature", but rather his Hot Side Air/Ambient Temperature, WHICH SHOULD ONLY BE BETWEEN 88-93 DEGREES F!!! So the bottom line is that his tank is much too hot, and this will absolutely cause a lack of appetite and lethargy!!!

***If you don't already have either a Temperature Gun or a Digital Probe Thermometer, you absolutely must get one immediately, as Dragon's rely on a proper Basking Spot Surface Temperature to properly digest their live insects. If their Basking Spot Surface Temperature is too low they will not be able to digest their food and they will become impacted, and if it's too high they will become dehydrated, can develop heat exhaustion, and potentially die if the temperature is high enough and they are in it for too long...So please, if you don't already have one, you need to run to any Pet Shop and spend $10 on a Digital Thermometer that has a Probe on a Wire. Then you need to set the Probe directly on his Basking Spot/Platform, let it sit there for at least 20-30 minutes, and then read the temperature...

Proper Bearded Dragon Temperature Ranges:

COOL SIDE AIR/AMBIENT TEMPERATURE (The air temperature in the Cool Side of the tank, taken with either a Stick-On Thermometer or a Digital Probe Thermometer): Between 75-80 degrees F maximum.

HOT SIDE AIR/AMBIENT TEMPERATURE (The air temperature in the Hot Side of the tank, the air that SURROUNDS his Basking Spot/Platform; taken with either a Stick-On Thermometer or a Digital Probe): Between 88-93 degrees F maximum.

BASKING SPOT/PLATFORM SURFACE TEMPERATURE (The temperature of the SURFACE of the Basking Spot/Platform that the Dragon lays on while basking; located within the Hot Side of the tank, directly underneath both the bright-white Basking Bulb and the UVB tube): For a baby/juvenile Dragon who is under a year or so old it should be between 105-110 degrees F maxium; For a sub-adult or adult who is a year to a year and a half old or older, it should be between 100-105 degrees F maximum.

****The hottest SURFACE Temperature located anywhere inside a Dragon's tank should be 110 degrees F, no hotter...The absolute highest AIR/AMBIENT Temperature located anywhere inside a Dragon's tank should be 93 degrees F, no hotter....
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Re: Beardies Eye Rolling!

Postby Za941 » Sat Feb 24, 2018 10:02 am

[Click image to enlarge]
Omg you guys were right. She was shedding her eyelid. That's the eye that was closed. Today she's finished about 70% of her shed including her face and she was in a great mood. She ate 5 wax worms and 3 crickets! The most she's ever eaten! She drank, pooped and not a single twitch, both eyes are open.

I have a 80 Watt Mercury bulb on one side and a 40 watt halogen on the other. I also have a heat mat under her sleeping hide for when the lights go off at night. So her temps at the moment are 100F from the Mercury, 80 on her cool side and it's stays between 80 and 70 with the heat map at night.

I have to admit her husbandry was wrong a few days ago and she seemed really sluggish especially when shedding but now that I've upped the temps she busted right out of her skin! I'm kicking myself, I should have done it sooner.

Aiming for 10 crickets tomorrow to get that protein up now that she has her appetite back.

Sorry for panicking friends! Thanks for all the info, it made me feel calm to know that it wasn't something totally uncommon.

I'm so excited to be a beardie mum!
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Re: Beardies Eye Rolling!

Postby AHBD » Sat Feb 24, 2018 10:13 am

That's great ! Nice to find out that a scary problem turns out to be something simple . :) She's a cutie, and good to hear that she's eating ! One thing, be careful of the waxworms...... beardies love em but they're not too nutritious and your dragon can get hooked on them and reuse other food. Stick with crickets, silkworms [ if you can get them ] and bsfl like Phoenix or Calciworms.

Question, what type of MVB bulb do you have that is 80 watts ? Are you in the U.S. ?
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Re: Beardies Eye Rolling!

Postby EllenD » Sat Feb 24, 2018 11:22 am

Took the question right out of mouth, lol...What MVB are you using?

The issues with MVB lights sometimes are #1) There are a couple that do not emit adequate UVB light for a Bearded Dragon, and unfortunately they end up with a Calcium Deficiency and/or MBD because of them, and then #2) that they do not reflect UVB light anywhere in the tank except for directly underneath the MVB itself, that's it, and for this reason many experienced Dragon owners add a long, T5 UVB tube inside a tube fixture that has a reflector inside it, behind the tube, so that adequate UVB light is reflected throughout the tank, in addition to using the MVB.
"Dance like nobody's watching..."
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Re: Beardies Eye Rolling!

Postby Za941 » Thu Mar 01, 2018 12:52 am

Sorry for the late reply. I've done some more research and found that the. Mercury bulb I was using wasn't very good. I got it from Reptech. I've invested in a ceramic bulb, 100 watt basking light and a Reprint Glo 13 watt UVB all from Exo Terra, I've also invest in a temp gun. She seems to be much happier now, and her appetite is growing. I have her on a diet of calci worms and crickets - can't deal with roaches - bad experiences :)
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Re: Beardies Eye Rolling!

Postby EllenD » Thu Mar 01, 2018 8:13 am

Oh, I wish you had checked here before buying that 13 watt Exo Terra UVB light, it's no where near adequate for a Dragon, he'll lose his appetite for sure under that and become lethargic very soon without a better UVB light...Uhg.

The most important piece of equipment you'll every buy your Dragon is the UVB light, and because they are desert reptiles that spend all day, every day, under bright, direct, natural sunlight, they need very strong UVB light that is not only strong over their basking spot/platform within the Hot Side of the tank, but also it must be reflected throughout their entire tank...

Without going into detail, let's just say that 99% of ALL Compact (regular lightbulb shaped) and 100% of all Coil/Spiral UVB bulbs are totally inadequate for a Dragon. That 13 watt Compact UVB bulb you have would have to be right in his face at a distance of about 3-4" all day long for it to get adequate UVB light to him...Add to this that you have it sitting on top of a mesh lid to the tank that is blocking about 40% of the already far too weak UVB light emitted, and basically your Dragon is getting no UVB light at all right now, and basically hasn't yet...So what you need to buy him is a long (at least 18") UVB tube that is at least a 10% UVB tube (10.0 or higher) and a matching tube fixture that has a Reflector inside it that sits behind the UVB tube to reflect the UVB light throughout the tank. This is not optional at all, without getting one immediately you're going to have major problems, because he's doing a lot of growing right now, and he'll develop a Calcium Deficiency very quickly. So please, please take our advice and get him an adequate UVB tube immediately...

Brands to avoid: Basically all of them EXCEPT Reptisun 10.0 and Arcadia. That's about it. The cheap, Chinese off-brands like the first MVB you had, plus the common brands like Zilla (Petco's house-brand), All Living Things (Petsmart's house-brand), ReptileOne, Trixie, and the one that you bought all emit harmful light rays that are a byproduct of the cheap manufacturing process, and all of them seem to cause severe eye damage, neurological issues, and blindness within the first month of the Dragon being underneath them. MOST ALL EXPERIENCED DRAGON OWNERS AND BREEDERS USE EITHER A REPTISUN 10.0 OR AN ARCADIA 12% T5 STRENGTH UVB TUBE...

There are 2 different strengths of UVB tubes that you can buy: The much weaker T8 strength and then the much stronger T5 strength. Both Reptisun 10.0 and Arcadia make both a T8 strength UVB tube and a stronger T5 UVB tube...Here are the basic differences between the 2 strengths:

#1) The weaker T8 tubes must be mounted UNDERNEATH all mesh lids to the tank, as they are not strong enough to deliver adequate UVB light on the other side of the mesh to your dragon, so you have to use zip ties, wire, twine, etc. to strap the entire tube fixture to the underside of the mesh lid, over the Hot Side of the tank. The stronger T5 UVB tubes can sit on top of the mesh lids.

#2) The weaker T8 UVB tubes must be within at least 6" of your Dragon's basking spot/platform to deliver effective and adequate UVB light to your Dragon, while the T5 UVB tubes only need to be within at least 10-11" of his basking spot/platform, even when sitting on top of the mesh lid.

#3) The T8 UVB tubes must be replaced once every 6 months, while the T5 tubes only need replaced once every 12 months. The UVB light decay-rate of the T8 tubes is much faster, and at 6 months old they are no longer emitting any UVB light, only light....

So for these reasons we always suggest the stronger T5 UVB tubes, if for no other reason than not only do you save money because you only have to replace the tubes once a year instead of twice a year, but if you order both the T5 strength UVB tube and a fixture with a reflector for it online, at a place like Amazon.com (cheapest place so far and where most people get their T5 UVB tubes from yearly), you will actually pay far less for the T5 UVB tube and fixture online than you'll pay for a shorter T8 UVB tube and fixture in a pet shop like Petco or Petsmart, as the retail prices are ridiculous (and the only T5 UVB tube that is sold in either Petco or Petsmart is at Petsmart, they sell a package deal from Reptisun that includes a hood and a T5 UVB tube, unfortunately it's only a 5% UVB tube, or a Reptisun 5.0 T5 UVB tube, which is not adequate at all, it must be at least a 10.0)...So ordering both the T5 UVB tube and fixture online is a no-brainer.

On Amazon.com you can buy a 22" Reptisun 10.0 T5HO UVB tube for around $25 shipped. And the cheapest T5-rated (24 watts) tube fixture THAT INCLUDES A REFLECTOR WITH IT (crucial) is about $28 shipped. So for about $60 shipped you can get the best UVB tube and fixture available for your Dragon, and you won't need to replace it for a year.

If you want to buy a tube and fixture in a local pet shop, you can get away with the Reptisun 10.0 T8 UVB tube as long as you mount it inside the tank, under the mesh, and it's within 6" of the basking spot/platform, and you replace it every 6 months. You cannot buy a Reptisun 5.0 tube, they're retail price is a little cheaper, but they are not adequate for your Dragon. So an 18" Reptisun 10.0 T8 UVB tube has a retail of $37.99 in both Petco and Petsmart, but you can do an online price match to their website at the register. So if you save the online page with the price and just show it at the register and say you want an online price match, I know that Petco's online price for an 18" Reptisun 10.0 T8 UVB tube is $18.09 or something similar...but for that price, you're much better off spending $25 on the 10.0 T5HO tube on Amazon.com, as you'll not need to replace it for a year...

Either way, you absolutely must get him an adequate UVB tube and fixture with a reflector immediately, it's not optional, and the UVB light you are using is going to result in a severe Calcium Deficiency within a month...
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