Sick beardie, lots of problems :(

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Hello!

So I made the mistake of getting a baby bearded dragon from a local pet shop. We had proper care for our Bearded Dragon, named Sawyer for the first two or three months. Proper shedding, eating tons and tons of food, very energetic, then we encountered an issue of not enough heat and low UVB. We went through several broken bulbs and a few fixtures to get one that worked, but by then it had been almost a month and our beardy was looking a little sickly. We changed her cage and the heat, getting to about 107F on the basking rock and 70 - 80F on the cold side of the tank with a Reptisun 10.0 UVB Florescent tube inside the tank affixed to the wall.

But during that absence and the month or two after that, her appetite has slowed to a crawl, she hasn't shed for at least a month and a half at all, her joints have swollen up and she has a lump right under her ear canal. She's incredibly lethargic, dragging her body around the tank slowly and refusing to eat anything except the occasional Dubia roach and mustard green. We've been syinging her calcium and black cherry juice in case it's gout and to hopefully recover from the lack of UVB.

I've taken her to a nearby vet and she put her on antibiotics for something way more specific than I can remember, but it isn't making a difference and I haven't gotten any email response back from the vet. If anything, symptoms have worsened and it breaks my heart watching her crawl around her tank. She's small for her age too.

Is there anything more an incredibly concerned beardie owner can do? She's about almost a year old. I know we have messed up on our care for her, but I am trying my best to make sure she recovers and despite my best efforts and research, I'm stuck.
 

AHBD

BD.org Sicko
Hi there, poor girl. Too bad the vet was not helpful, antibiotics can def. make things worse. It could be a combo of calcium deficiency and gout so you're already doing what you can do there at home [ proper lights again, calcium and cherry juice ] You might look for a more experienced vet to do blood work to determine the uric acid [ UA ] levels....that can determine if she has gout. Oh, and be sure the dubias that she eats are fed an all veggie diet, they are prone to storing excess uric acid when fed protein and this can affect your beardie.

Can you post pics of her, close up body shots that also show her legs ? Also a few pics of her set up.
 

EllenD

Gray-bearded Member
I totally agree with AHBD, the antibiotics only make things worse and are most likely unnecessary anyway. This was not a Certified Reptile Vet or even a Reptile Specialist, I'm guessing, which you need to find ASAP. I'd stop the antibiotics immediately, as she will never eat while taking them on top of the underlying issues.

Lack of proper UVB can obviously cause a calcium deficiency and MBD,, which she most likely is suffering from, but it also causes a condition called "Pseudogout", where the dragon has a Gout flare-up due to improper lighting and temps, diet, etc. This can be corrected by getting the lighting corrected (you need a T5 strength UVB tube instead of the much weaker T8, if that's the Reptisun that you got, you can buy a 22" Reptisun 10.0 T5HO and matching 24" T5-rated tube fixture on Amazon.com both for under $50 shipped if you don't have a T5 tube already).

Judging from her symptoms I'd say it's a combination of the start of MBD, but also Gout. A Certified Reptile Vet or at the very least an experienced Reptile Specialist Vet will know about how common this is in Bearded Dragons (not an "exotics" vet) and they will need to take a routine blood draw from her tail to check her Uric Acid level, as well as her blood counts to check for an infection, but I don't think that's the problem. She'll need a simple prescription for human-grade Allopurinol (there is no veterinary grade of Allopurinol, and people get the prescriptions called in to their own pharmacies by the vet), which I believe 2 months worth of a daily dose only cost around $25 at most. This is the only way to bring down the Uric Acid levels and get the joint swelling down, along with a pain reliever. Be sure to give plenty of fluids (water or Pedialyte, which is better) BY MOUTH, not soaking her in a bath (this does nothing), several times throughout the day, as Uric Acid build-up causes the kidneys to fail eventually, so they must be kept flushed out.
 

Pigeoncracker

Member
Original Poster
EllenD":2h59u09h said:
I totally agree with AHBD, the antibiotics only make things worse and are most likely unnecessary anyway. This was not a Certified Reptile Vet or even a Reptile Specialist, I'm guessing, which you need to find ASAP. I'd stop the antibiotics immediately, as she will never eat while taking them on top of the underlying issues.

Lack of proper UVB can obviously cause a calcium deficiency and MBD,, which she most likely is suffering from, but it also causes a condition called "Pseudogout", where the dragon has a Gout flare-up due to improper lighting and temps, diet, etc. This can be corrected by getting the lighting corrected (you need a T5 strength UVB tube instead of the much weaker T8, if that's the Reptisun that you got, you can buy a 22" Reptisun 10.0 T5HO and matching 24" T5-rated tube fixture on Amazon.com both for under $50 shipped if you don't have a T5 tube already).

Judging from her symptoms I'd say it's a combination of the start of MBD, but also Gout. A Certified Reptile Vet or at the very least an experienced Reptile Specialist Vet will know about how common this is in Bearded Dragons (not an "exotics" vet) and they will need to take a routine blood draw from her tail to check her Uric Acid level, as well as her blood counts to check for an infection, but I don't think that's the problem. She'll need a simple prescription for human-grade Allopurinol (there is no veterinary grade of Allopurinol, and people get the prescriptions called in to their own pharmacies by the vet), which I believe 2 months worth of a daily dose only cost around $25 at most. This is the only way to bring down the Uric Acid levels and get the joint swelling down, along with a pain reliever. Be sure to give plenty of fluids (water or Pedialyte, which is better) BY MOUTH, not soaking her in a bath (this does nothing), several times throughout the day, as Uric Acid build-up causes the kidneys to fail eventually, so they must be kept flushed out.

Thank you for your help! I'll get some pictures as soon as I can. The vet seemed to know what she was talking about, having mentioned having several bearded dragons herself and being in communication with other reptile specialists. I think she prescribed the antibodies for the swelling in the corner of her mouth first, and then asked if that didn't work, that I come in and they check blood for gout, so that lines up.

We do have a T8 bulb, but I thought the T5 bulb was just smaller, not that it has a stronger output?
 

EllenD

Gray-bearded Member
No, the T8 UVB tubes are much, much weaker (15 or 17 watts) than the T5 UVb tubes (24 or 26 watts), and the T5 tubes only need replaced once a year, while the T8 tubes need replaced once every 6 months, as they have double the UVB light decay-rate.

The problem your vet created by prescribing the antibiotics first, before testing for Gout, is the antibiotics are extremely hard on their kidneys themselves, so if she does have Gout and the vet didn't do the blood work to test for it, and they just put her on antibiotics, if her kidneys are already very, very stressed from the built-up Uric Acid from the Gout, the antibiotics can make it much much worse, even killing them at times from kidney failure....that's why I said I'd stop the antibiotics immediately and demand a blood test...
 

Pigeoncracker

Member
Original Poster
EllenD":9ojyhsko said:
No, the T8 UVB tubes are much, much weaker (15 or 17 watts) than the T5 UVb tubes (24 or 26 watts), and the T5 tubes only need replaced once a year, while the T8 tubes need replaced once every 6 months, as they have double the UVB light decay-rate.

The problem your vet created by prescribing the antibiotics first, before testing for Gout, is the antibiotics are extremely hard on their kidneys themselves, so if she does have Gout and the vet didn't do the blood work to test for it, and they just put her on antibiotics, if her kidneys are already very, very stressed from the built-up Uric Acid from the Gout, the antibiotics can make it much much worse, even killing them at times from kidney failure....that's why I said I'd stop the antibiotics immediately and demand a blood test...

Alright. Will do. I'll order a T5 soonest possible and get that blood test done. I'll keep you updated.
 

EllenD

Gray-bearded Member
I hope you don't have an issue with the vet, stand your ground and demand the blood work. Even if it's not Gout, which I'm pretty sure it is, you'll get a full check of his liver and kidney function, blood counts to check for infection, etc. And with treating Gout successfully it's important to get them started on the Allopurinol ASAP.
 

Drache613

BD.org Sicko
Staff member
Moderator
Hello,

Oh dear, poor girl!
So what caused the mouth sore/issue, shedding trouble? I would stop giving the antibiotics
for sure, in case her kidneys are having a hard time. Definitely keep on giving the black
cherry juice daily to help out her kidneys. Which calcium are you giving her?
Let us know how the vet visit goes.
What insects do you feed her?

Tracie
 

Pigeoncracker

Member
Original Poster
Drache613":24v8t1pd said:
Hello,

Oh dear, poor girl!
So what caused the mouth sore/issue, shedding trouble? I would stop giving the antibiotics
for sure, in case her kidneys are having a hard time. Definitely keep on giving the black
cherry juice daily to help out her kidneys. Which calcium are you giving her?
Let us know how the vet visit goes.
What insects do you feed her?

Tracie

We have definitely stopped giving her antibiotics, a few weeks ago. The vet only recommended using them for two weeks and if there was no change, stop using it. Black cherry juice is a check! I've never actually tasted it myself lol.

We are using this specific calcium - https://www.amazon.com/Zoo-Med-Calcium-Vitamin-Reptile/dp/B002GCAUAA/

We feed her (or try to) dubia roaches that are on the smaller side and typically a mixture of mustard greens, carrots, kale, collard greens, strawberries, a bunch of stuff but we made sure it wasn't toxic.
 

EllenD

Gray-bearded Member
I'll chime in for Tracie here, she can follow-up, but feeding your dragon only the dubia roaches is not a good idea if she does have Gout, and can actually be one of the factors that caused the Gout to begin with, depending on what their original vendor/breeder was feeding them. A lot of bulk feeder insect breeders feed their roaches, who are already very high in purine-based protein, very cheap, high-purine based protein feed, unfortunately it's usually dog or cat food! This is what is thought to be one of the main reasons that so many Dragons are coming down with Gout, they eat so much purine-based protein in their live feeder insects (roaches and crickets mainly) that it's causing their Uric Acid levels to sky rocket and overload their kidneys.

You're best bet to start to reverse the Uric Acid levels is to start feeding her either BSFL/Phoenix Worms/NutriGrubs/Reptiworms/Calciworms (all the same thing) as the higher percentage of her live insects, or better yet, if you can find them, are Silkworms. I know you can buy live Silkworms on Amazon.com, but as far as I know that's the only place.

The reason that Silkworms are the best live feeder insect for Dragons with Gout (at least as a supplement to their main live feeder insects, a couple each day, even 1-2 a day only will help tremendously) is because live Silkworms contain a natural enzyme within the inner lining of their intestines called Serrapeptase. Serrapeptase is know to relieve the swelling and pain of Gout by helping to lower the Uric Acid levels in the blood. You can order Serrapeptase in capsule form online as well and add it to slurries to feed your dragon or dust her insects in it or sprinkle it on her salad too, that's the other option since live Silkworms are so hard to find and are expensive.

Either way, lowering the amount of dubia roaches she is eating is probably a very good idea, and just replacing a good percentage of them with BSFL, as this will lower the amount of purine-based protein she's eating, which will in-turn lessen the strain on her kidneys, which is the most serious issue you must think about when you dragon has Gout. Also, only gut-load her live insects, any of them, with the same healthy, appropriate, fresh greens and veggies that you feed her, and nothing else. Do not ever give her live feeder insects any commercial roach or feeder insect gut-loads or diets, no dog food or cat food, no raw meat of any kind, etc. , just the same fresh greens and veggies you give her.

The other thing you can try to replace some of her live insect protein with is Alfalfa meal that you mix into a slurry or dust her salad with. Alfalfa is loaded with protein, but it is purine-free protein, so it will provide her with tons of adequate protein to keep her growing and also from losing any weight, but it will not raise her Uric Acid levels or cause any strain on her kidneys at all. Alfalfa meal can be purchased online all over the place, cheaply, or in pet stores as pellets that are feed for rabbits and guinea pigs, or at stores like Tractor Supply very cheaply in pellet form as feed for livestock, and you can easily crush the pellets down to powder. Health food stores also sell Alfalfa meal in powder form to add to shakes (the "Greens" that people mix into shakes and drink are usually Alfalfa meal based). Just make sure that if you order or buy any Alfalfa pellets from a pet shop or especially from a store like Tractor Supply that they are just plain Alfalfa meal or pellets, and are not medicated with any type of Antiparasitics, Antibiotics, etc. as farmers buy medicated Alfalfa pellets to feed to and treat their herds that are suffering from parasites and certain infections.
 

Pigeoncracker

Member
Original Poster
Okay! I've ordered Phoenix worms and they should be coming tomorrow. Serapeptase? I'll have to look into it. I've been feeding her syringes of black cherry juice, but if that's more effective I will certainly get some.

Ive been trying to get more water into her system. I hope it's working.

I didn't know about a lot of this stuff even with the amount of research that I've been doing. Thanks for the help you guys are giving me!
 

Pigeoncracker

Member
Original Poster
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Drache613

BD.org Sicko
Staff member
Moderator
Hello,

How is your girl doing? She looks pretty alert there.
Definitely keep giving the black cherry juice! You should try it, the juice tastes pretty
good also. LOL The extra oral fluids are helpful too, a few times per day. Hopefully she
is pretty cooperative.
The dubias are high in protein, which is likely one of the reasons they should be fed less
than other insects. What were you feeding the dubias? The calcium worms are great, have
good protein & calcium, too. Silkworms are very easy to digest as well. As Ellen stated,
it's the purine that is particularly harsh on the kidneys. Reptiles conserve & process water
much differently than mammals do.
I hope her uric acid levels are not too bad, but they are probably higher than 10mg/dl due
to the slight swelling already seen. I think you have caught it early.
Serrapeptase is an excellent enzyme from silkworms, that help with swelling & inflammation.
You can get it in powder form, or liquid form, either one.

Let us know how she is doing.
Tracie
 
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