Please help I think my beardies are sick!

PodunkKhaleesi":3j9g0u3t said:

There’s potentially some really good news here: impaction or illness may not even be an issue. Based on the husbandry info you provided, if you upgrade their UV lights to Reptisun or Arcadia tubes, house the dragons separately, get a digital thermometer so you can be 100% sure your basking temps are in the desired 95-105F range for adults (and that the cool side and warm side have appropriate ambient temperatures), and stick with staple greens (collard, turnip, mustard, dandelion greens) and staple veggies (like butternut squash) and get rid of the zero nutritional value items like cucumber and cabbage (and ditch the fruit on a daily basis, as it’s an occasional/treat food), then you will likely see a drastically positive change for all your dragons. And as another member mentioned, adults still require insect protein and although they need much less of it than babies (with babies you want approximately 70-80% of the diet to be insects, and with adults this ratio flips to approximately 20% insects). Because protein is offered less, the quality of the feeder insects is very important. I’m not sure what country you’re in, but are you able to acquire dubia roaches, BSFL (also known as calciworms/reptiworms), or silkworms? These are the three most nutritious feeder insects. Crickets, when properly gutloaded (feed them the kinds of foods you would feed your bearded dragon and avoid feeding them things like cat food) can be made to be more nutritious. Mealworms and superworms aren’t good staple feeder insects (I avoid them entirely because of their high fat content and because they’re harder on a beardie’s digestive system). If you’re concerned about dehydration (have they been eating anything? Bugs? Veggies?) then I would order a cup of hornworms. I haven’t met a bearded dragon that doesn’t go insane for them, and their high moisture content makes them a great feeder when a beardie is ill or dehydrated. Have they had any bowel movements in the past week? If so, were they solid and well formed or were they extremely runny and foul smelling? Keep us posted with any additional information you feel might be beneficial for members to know in order to help. The pictures are encouraging, as I think everyone was bracing themselves for photos showing emaciated creatures on the brink of death but they’re in pretty decent shape weight wise given the circumstances. Definitely post updates! Everyone here just wants to see your babies healthy and happy, and if you’re willing to put in the time and effort to correct the cage/food/lighting situation then this can and will get better.

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EllenD":1os1dvjn said:

I totally agree about adding healthy, live staple insects to their diets at least 2-3 times a week, this is not optional at all. They cannot exist solely on greens and veggies, even if they are only appropriate ones like Collard Greens, Mustard Greens, Turnip Greens, Escarole, Endive, Dandelion Greens, Swiss Chard, Bok Choy and Pak Choy, and Arugula (No Kale and No Spinach at all if you can help it, they both contain very high Oxalate content, which binds to all available free Calcium they take in, and this keeps them from absorbing any of the Calcium they take in, and instead they just "urinate" or excrete the Calcium Oxalate out; this is what often causes kidney stones in humans and in reptiles both). So I'd be willing to say that the fact that you are not feeding them any live insects at all is up to 50% of your problem and the reason that they are so skinny. You need to pick a healthy, live, staple insect (never feed a dragon any freeze-dried or already dead insects, they contain no moisture, little nutritional value at all because it is all depleted from them, and they often cause bad impactions, their insects must be live and appropriate for dragons to digest) and for 3 adult dragons I would be ordering your live staple insects from an online vendor in bulk, as this will be cheapest for you by far. I had my first dragon from a month old up until he died at just shy of 13 years old, and he ate live insects pretty much every day of his life, as already mentioned above. He got a large salad every day that consisted of only the greens listed above along with lots of FRESH veggies such as multiple types of squash, bell peppers, green beans, peas and pea pods, sweet potatoes/yams, some carrots, some broccoli, etc. He also got a small piece of fruit once or twice a week, but that's it, as most fruit is full of sugar that they don't need.

You need to start buying either live Crickets, Dubia Roaches or one of the other species of roaches, Silkworms (hard to find live online), or BSFL/Phoenix Worms/NutriGrubs/CalciWorms (all the same thing, just different brands). I currently have 3 dragons, one male that is a year and 3 months old, a female that is just turning a year old, and another male that is 6 months old, and I feed BSFL worms as my live staple insect, and I supplement them with 1-2 Superworms a day at most (no more than that, Superworms are fatty). Obviously the 6 month old eats pretty much ALL live insects and not many Superworms, he is getting a mix of BSFL and Dubia Roaches until he hits a year old. But the bottom line is that you cannot expect a Bearded Dragon to exist only on Greens and Veggies and stay healthy and of a good weight. They must have live insect protein at least 2-3 times a week, and if you choose to only feed them the live insects 2-3 times a week instead of every day, then on those 2-3 days you must give them a 10-15 minute live insect "Feeding Session" where they are allowed to eat as many of the live insects as they want to, and then you give them their fresh Greens and Veggies AFTER they eat their live insects. This will ensure that they are getting enough healthy protein to build muscle, as now they are getting little to no protein at all.

The other half of your issue is totally inadequate UVB light, for a couple of reasons. First of all, no UVB tube at all, regardless of what brand it is or whether it's a very strong T5 tube can be at a distance of 20" away from their basking spot. That's much too far away from their basking spot/platform, and they have not been getting much adequate UVB light at all. Even a 12% Arcadia T5 UVB tube, which is about the best UVB light you can buy for a Bearded Dragon, must be within at least 11-12" of their Basking Spot. At a distance of 20" away from their Basking Spots, regardless of whether it's an adequate light or not it's not going to be able to get any adequate UVb light to them while they bask. It's good that you have them mounted underneath the mesh lid (which blocks up to 40% of all UVb light), that's a must, especially at 20" away, but you need to figure out how to lower the UVB tubes over their Basking Spot/Platforms or raise their Basking Spot/Platforms up to within at least 11-12" if they are T5 UVb tubes, and within 6: if they are T8 UVb tubes. Also, I hope that all of your UVB tube fixtures have Metal Reflectors in them sitting behind the UVb tubes, so that the UVB light can be reflected throughout their large tanks, if not you need to order some Slip-On Metal Reflectors (Amazon sells them very cheaply, Arcadia brand) that are the length of eatch UVB tube.

*********As far as the 2 types of UVb lights you are using, the Exo Terra UVB Desert Glo UVb tube, the 40 watt version, is only a T8 strength UVB tube!!! This means that it must be mounted underneath the mesh lid, which I believe it you do have it mounted unobstructed and under the mesh lid, However, a T8 strength UVB tube must be at least within 6" or so of the Basking Spot/Platform!!! If you have it at a distance of 20" away from their basking Spot, they are not getting much UVB light at all!!! I know people who are using the Desert Glo UVB tubes successfully as long as they are the 10.0 version and they are mounted underneath the mesh and within 6" of the basking spot. So this is definitely a lot of your issue! You really need to figure out how to get that Desert Glo within at least 6" of them, otherwise none of the UVB light from that tube is reaching them at all. Also, make sure there is a metal reflector inside of the fixture...***

****The other UVb tube you're using, the "Trixie" brand tube, is a totally inadequate UVB light. Trixie is a German pet supplies company that does not specialize in Reptile products, but rather they sell products for ALL types of pets, dogs, cats, birds, rodents, etc. and they do not even manufacture their own Reptile lights, they import them from China, just like the Pet Smart house-brand "All Living Things" does, as well as "Reptile One", and they are all essentially the exact same lights. Again, this tube is not only again a T8 UVB tube that must be at least within 6" of their basking Spots and at a distance of 20" they are not getting any UVb light to them at all, but in the case of this UVB tube this might be a good thing, as these are one of the many off-brand lights that emit harmful light rays as a byproduct of the manufacturing process, and are well know to cause eye and neurological damage. So the fact that you have this tube so far away from their basking spot has probably saved them from developing severe eye problems. *****

So you absolutely need to figure out a way to get any T8 UVb tubes within at least 6" of their basking spots, unobstructed, for them to get any adequate UVb light. The Exo Terra Desert Glo 40 watt T8 UVB tube can be used successfully, but again, not if it's 20" away from their basking spot, because it is only a T8 tube it must be within at least 6" of them. And you need to replace that Trixie brand tube ASAP with either another Exo Terra Desert Glo or a better UVB tube, like either a Reptisun 10.0 or an Arcadia brand.

You have very tall tanks apparently if your UVB tubes, which are apparently strapped to the underside of the mesh lids and inside the tanks, are at a distance of 20 inches away from their basking spots. My best advice to you (especially since your dragons have not been getting any proper UVB light for quite a while) is to upgrade to T5 strength UVb tubes, which are far more adequate for such tall tanks. While you'll still need to mount them inside the tanks and under the mesh lids, since the tanks are so tall, the T5 strength tubes only need to be within 11-12" of the basking spots. This is going to be much easier for you to accomplish than getting the T8 tubes within 6" of the basking spots. Since you must get rid of that Trixie T8 UVB tube (I DEFINITELY WOULD FEAR PUTTING THIS BRAND OF UVB TUBE WITHIN THE NECESSARY 6" OF THEIR BASKING SPOT, AS THEY ARE LIKELY TO DEVELOP EYE DAMAGE OR NEUROLOGICAL ISSUES BECAUSE OF IT, BUT AT ANY FURTHER AWAY THE T8 TUBES WILL NOT GET ANY UVB LIGHT TO YOUR DRAGONS, SO THIS IS WHY YOU NEED TO GET RID OF AT LEAST THIS PARTICULAR TUBE). I'd take this opportunity to upgrade at least that particular tube to either an Arcadia 12% T5 UVb tube or a Reptisun 10.0 T5HO UVb tube, and get either of these mounted within at least 6" of their basking spots.

As far as the Exo Terra Desert Glo T8 tube, you need to get it within 6" of the basking spot ASAP.

Since you have to replace T8 UVB tubes once every 6 months anyway (that is the age that all T8 UVb tubes decay and stop emitting any UVB light at all; this is why you end up saving a lot of money by switching to T5 UVB tubes anyway, they only need replaced once every year), whenever your current Exo Terra Desert Glo T8 turns 6 months old and you have to replace it anyway, I'd also upgrade this one to either the Arcadia or the Reptisun 10.0 T5 UVB tube as well. But right now, since you said it's only 2 months old, so you have 4 months left on the Desert Glo T8 tube, and since it's a decent T8 tube, you can still use it for the remaining 4 months it has left as long as you get it down within the 6" of their basking spot. The Trixie brand UVb tube needs tossed now, it's not doing them any good at all at 20" away from their basking spot, and putting it within 6" of their basking spot will no doubt cause more harm than good. So please upgrade that tube ASAP.

Once you separate the 2 dragons that are being housed together (not optional, they need to be separated ASAP, at least with a divider), and you replace that Trixie T8 UVB tube with an adequate one and make sure it is mounted within either 6" if replaced with a T8 or within 11" if replaced with a T5, and you get the Desert Glo T8 tube from 20" away to 6" away from their basking light or replace it with a proper T5 tube an get it mounted within 11", and you start feeding your dragons live insect protein at least 2-3 times a week (every day is better), they will start eating more as their appetites will pick up , they will start to put weight back on, they will have much more energy, and they will all be happy and healthier. Right now they are not well from a total lack of adequate UVB light, an improper diet that contains no live insect protein, and the 2 that are housed together are suffering from dominance stress....

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AHBD":33bw6o8c said:

I was also expecting to see really skinny lizards, but Rey + Ressi actually look pretty healthy....the tail base + back legs are still nice I think. The female { I think that's Messi ? ] in the middle probably looks the thinnst but not emaciated or anything. Still, you want to fix whatever it is that's caused them to stop eating. The lighting was already covered, and I agree that the Exo terra Reptiglo [ t8] is O.K. at a close distance, so you'll need to mount it in the tank within 8-10" max. In the meantime maybe you can shop for the other bulbs that Ellen + others recommended.

It's also possible that they are trying to brumate, many dragons do so this time of year.

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EllenD":13xryi5r said:

As long as those are genuine Arcadia UVB tubes then yes, they make a 12% and a 14%. The 14% is a very strong tube. I just don't always trust eBay, as a lot of the time lights are not genuine but rather cheap ripoffs that are being called Arcadia or Reptisun. I'd message the seller and ask in writing if these are genuine Arcadia brand UVB tubes, and if they are the 12% or the 14% (I'm not sure what the 3 different wattages listed are, the 12% is the 24 watt one, but the other's I'm not sure, that's why I'm questioning it). The 14% is most likely a higher wattage, but I'm not sure which one, nor am I sure what the recommended distance from the basking spot/platform is for the 14%, as the 12% T5 is 11". I'm assuming it's the same distance, as the 14% is still a T5 UVB tube, so that shouldn't change.

You'd need to just find a basking platform that is tall enough to get him within at least 11", like logs, branches, rocks, etc. from outside (you can bake them in your oven at 250 degrees for 45 minutes after washing them to kill everything on and in them), or you can buy already made basking platforms in a pet shop, but they are very expensive, that's why I gather all of my tank decor from outside for free.

And he's not going to get any better until he's under appropriate UVB light, that's why we told you that first. The problem is that without any UVB light they have no appetite, and even if they are force fed (which you're going to soon have to start doing daily with Oxbow or Emerald brand Reptile Critical Care) they cannot properly digest their food without proper temperature zones (that's why you need a Digital Probe Thermometer to get their basking spots within 100-105 degrees F) and they will not absorb or process/use any nutrition, vitamins, minerals that they eat without the 14 hours a day under a proper UVB tube. They are desert reptiles that get intense, direct natural sunlight all day long, every day in the wild, so their bodies are made to operate this way. This is why they are not eating, or at least the main reason. It's also the cause of the lethargy, and the lack of absorption of nutrition...

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erlabella said:

The information about their enclosures:

This is the big one where I keep Rey and Messi in. It’s 150cm x 60cm x 60 cm/60” x 24” x 24”. The basking area is around 36° C/97° F and the cool area around 28° C/82° F. As you can see I put a divider in their cage (it’s only temporary) so their spaces are smaller. Rey is in a 80cm x 60 cm x 60cm/ 31” x 24” x 24” and Messi in a 65cm x 60cm x 60cm/ 26” x 24” x 24”. I currently only have 1 basking spot in the cage and I know that’s bad, but it’s only temporary.

This is where I keep Ressi in. It’s 100cm x 40cm x 50cm/ 40” x 15” x 20”. His basking area is around 34° C/ 93° F and his cooling area around 28° C/ 82° F. I don’t know if the thermostat is accurate though. Their humidity level are in the 30s

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EllenD":2czsyfor said:

Their tanks actually look very nice and well constructed. If you buy a T5 strength UVb tube and it is mounted at the top of these enclosures in a long tube fixture, it should be okay as long as they can get up onto those basking platforms. However, PLEASE MAKE SURE THAT WHATEVER TUBE FIXTURES YOU ARE USING THE UVB TUBES IN HAVE METAL REFLECTORS INSIDE THEM, THAT SIT BEHIND THE CHAMBER WHERE THE THE UVB TUBES SIT. This is imperative for large enclosures, as it's the only way to get proper UVB light throughout the enclosure.

I don't know why this seller is listing different wattages for different length tubes. The length of the UVB tubes does no effect the wattage at all. For example, the genuine Arcadia UVB tubes, the 12% or the 14% are both T5 strength UVB tubes. (The 12% and the 14% designate the percentage of UVB light emitted from the tube, anything over 10% is adequate for Bearded Dragons, like the Reptisun 10.0 is a 10% UVB light). However, the wattage is effected by the strength, not the length. So the Arcadia 14% UVb tube come in 18", 24", 36", and 48" lengths, but they are all the same wattages. That's why I'm not trusting this eBay seller at all. Most likely is selling cheap, Chinese made knock-offs, as that doesn't look to me like the official Arcadia logo either, which is a definite red flag.

You cannot trust eBay, and I would not purchase any of these UVB tubes at all. I just noticed the "Arcadia" logo being weird, and that combined with the lengths and wattages is telling me this is a total rip-off and a waste of your money. I know you're in the UK (I think) which is where Arcadia lights are made...can you purchase from Amazon.com? I honestly don't know if the UK has a version of Amazon.com, but if you do, that would be your best bet for both price and genuine product, as Amazon.com is legitimate always, eBay is full of cheap knock-offs of everything.

If you cannot purchase from Amazon, maybe someone else on here that is in the UK can tell you the best place to order genuine Arcadia UVB tubes from, or the best place to buy them in-store, as you're lucky, they are sold all over the UK in stores. (We cannot usually buy them in the US unless we order them from Amazon or a UK site, which takes forever for shipping). They are definitely the most commonly used UVB tubes for owners on this board that live in the UK, so wait for someone else from the UK to comment on this before ordering anything from eBay, as I'm 99% sure that the eBay seller you're looking at is a ripoff.

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AHBD":3s64ukmq said:

He does lok extremely stressed + ill. Can you get any fluids in him ? I know you said there are no good vets in your area but if you take him that might be one thing they would give, sub-q fluids.
No telling what the problem is without bloodwork + other diagnostics though. Poor guy, at least fluids might help him out a bit.

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EllenD":2dqlbn5u said:

Oh I'm so sorry, he really looks like he is bad-off, the black-beard indicates that he's very uncomfortable and in pain...

Do you have an oral syringe or something similar that you can use to try to get some fluids in him? You don't want him to choke, but if you pick him up and he wakes up and is at least alert enough that he's aware of what's going on, they he should be able to take some fluids. This is going to be imperative right now, I don't think he can wait any longer to get to a vet. He needs nutrition and hydration, and you must get it in him by mouth, soaking him will do no good and only stress him more.

I wouldn't wait, as AHBD said, most any vet should be able to give him subcutaneous fluid injections of an electrolyte solution, like Lactate Ringers Solution, and if a vet has at least some experience they should be able to tube feed him nutrition.

I don't know what the issue is, he's gotten no UVB light obviously, but something is very wrong here....has he been pooping normally? When is the last time he pooped? Was it normal looking? Has he been eating? Do you have him in adequate temperature ranges?

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