Gout, MBD, Nurrological, Injury?

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Re: Gout, MBD, Nurrological, Injury?

Postby AHBD » Wed Nov 08, 2017 2:37 pm

It's good that she's gaining weight. If it were just fluid you might see more of a pot belly or swollen limbs but it doesn't seem to be the case. You can expect her to have some pretty " down" days. If the coccidia were very high it probably wouldn't hurt to treat her with Ponazuril [ toltrazuril ] for about 2 days, it knocks it out pretty quickly in most cases. But if she's doing O.K , eating + gainig weight you might not want to mess with the progress.
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Re: Gout, MBD, Nurrological, Injury?

Postby Drache613 » Thu Nov 09, 2017 12:52 am

Hello,

Deka is a cute name, LOL.
She has definitely gained a good amount of weight. Maybe all of the extra fluids & such
is causing the diarrhea, I hope. As AHBD suggested, ponazuril is a relatively mild anti-
coccidial med that usually only needs 1-3 doses to knock it out. Hopefully that isn't the
cause of the loose stools.
Has that leg gotten more swollen then, or the same? It really sounds like she has made a
lot of improvements though. Let us know how her behavior is. If the weather has started
to turn cold, that can make them more sleepy & less active also. Could she possibly be
going into a shed?
Ellen, I have a friend who is into the natural herbal healing, etc. She has a dragon who is
adeno negative but, has a kink literally in the loop of henle which cause GI distress from
time to time. So, every so often he needs help with worms, parasites or digestion aids.
She gives the mint, basil & sometimes oregano I think, for natural help in getting rid of
that. Parsley & cliantro help with detoxing somewhat like activated charcoal would do but
probably not quite as well in a case of ingestion of a firefly, etc. Just give those daily in
the slurry mix, or mixed in with their greens to help, for a week or so.
It is very hard finding a good vet, but, also finding one who cares also. Reptiles seem to be
on the low end of the totem pole next to cats, dogs or livestock.

Keep us posted on Deka!

Tracie
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Re: Gout, MBD, Nurrological, Injury?

Postby DanielleGia920 » Thu Nov 09, 2017 7:08 am

Yes she is in the middle of a shed. Her entire head is completly white along with her back legs.

I think she's doing better, she's moving very little compared to no movement at all. She really only moves if she has to go to the bathroom or if I take her out. Otherwise she stays under her basking lamp all day long and will sleep there too if I don't move her to her normal sleeping place.

Ok I'll try the mint and basil 🌿

One more thing 😂 I went on amazon to get a calcium liquid spray and found Zilla calcium spray. But now I read some comments somewhere that it's horrible 😱 That in comparison to the powder it has next to no calcium. Did I jump and buy a crappy calcium? Shes using rep cal calcium without phosphorus now but I was concerned with absorption because of the gout and wanted to put her on a liquid calcium. Is this one ok or no good?[Click image to enlarge]
[Click image to enlarge]


I think the leg is about the same. The swelling in the front fingers went down. They used to be bent all the way back, now they are flat on the ground but still don't have that natural curve to them.

Was thinking about the X-ray. Her hands and feet looked very dul in the X-ray. A couple discs in the spine and ribs looked dull to me too. The vet mentioned that her hands looked dul as well but never said anything else about it. Does it look like she has something wrong with her hands and feet? [Click image to enlarge]


Thanks so much!
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Re: Gout, MBD, Nurrological, Injury?

Postby Drache613 » Fri Nov 10, 2017 7:59 pm

Hello,

That is really good she is shedding, hopefully it doesn't bother her too badly then! They can
get quite grouchy sometimes. LOL Who can blame them though, itchy skin.
She could have some bone density issues, but hopefully not too bad. The Zilla isn't horrible,
but instead of spraying her food, I would suggest trying to dose it for her, orally so that she
is sure to get the correct amount for her weight.
Also, sometimes the light & brightness of the x-rays depends on the settings that they have
them on, too.
At least some of the swelling is starting to come down some, poor girl!
Definitely try the mint & basil, it is much more natural & will be kind to her kidneys, too.
I hope her appetite picks up soon but I'm glad to hear she is basking & going to shed.

Let us know how Deka is doing.

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Re: Gout, MBD, Nurrological, Injury?

Postby DanielleGia920 » Mon Nov 13, 2017 10:11 am

Swelling went down so much over night!!!! She still has the big bump on her knee and ankle but the leg itself is so much smaller than it was. [Click image to enlarge]
Her front feet are still swollen, most of the time she stands on her fingers instead of her foot, I don’t think she can bend the ankles in the front feet because of the swelling. That front hand trembles a lot when she tries to move it. Not sure if that’s from gout or a calcium deficiency . The front legs seem very week. I started her on reptaid, which I read a lot of great review on it. It’s a natural organic supplement for immune support. It supposedly helps with parasites, worms, digestive problems and upper respiratory infections. Hope that helps a little with pinworms and coccidia. I’ve also been giving her serrapeptase directly into a greens slurry everyday. She’s still growing and gaining weight. She’s up to 157 grams now 👍🏼 Hopefully things continue to improve. Hopefully the trembling in front legs subsides with the swelling. [Click image to enlarge]
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Re: Gout, MBD, Nurrological, Injury?

Postby Drache613 » Tue Nov 14, 2017 1:54 am

Hello,

That is wonderful to hear that her back leg swelling has gone down a lot! I hope that it
continues on that trend. It does take time so patience is needed. LOL
She could be having some strength issues in her front arms due to a calcium issue. Does
she have metabolic bone disease? Gout can interfere with other metabolic processes in
the body so it can affect absorption, too.
Reptaid has had a lot of success in dragons since it's natural. It's strong, so definitely
don't overdo it on her. It should take care of worms & or parasites, too.
Keep us posted on her!

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Re: Gout, MBD, Nurrological, Injury?

Postby DanielleGia920 » Tue Nov 14, 2017 6:54 am

Good morning,

The vet said she didn’t have metabolic bone disease that her bones looked good except for when you get to the the hands and the feet. She said she took several x rays and they looked the same in all, hands and feet didn’t look as good as the rest of her body. Hopefully it’s just from the swelling. I did switch to liquid calcium instead of powder and I slide her lid over everyday so her basking area and half the tank is unfiltered lights. I added some more hammocks at all different heights and she seems so much more active. She’s actually moving around a lot more now. Glad to hear another positive comment on reptaid. Yes, I’m Giving her the exact dose, .15 mls, as per her weight.

It’s been almost a month and she seems a little better each day she’s even eating her salad 🥗 everyday! She does not extend the back right leg because of the lump on the knee but is getting around just fine. The swelling in front hands seems to have gone down a bit. It doesn’t look like she’s stanidng on just her fingers today. It looks better!! She seems happy, inquisitive and content! 👍🏼[Click image to enlarge]
[Click image to enlarge]
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Re: Gout, MBD, Nurrological, Injury?

Postby Drache613 » Tue Nov 14, 2017 10:39 pm

Hello Danielle,

Wow, look at her, she looks beautiful & her colors are terrific! She does look happy, she really
is smiling. The swelling probably has blurred the sharpness of the bones in the hand & wrist
area. At least she doesn't have metabolic bone disease to contend with thankfully!
She's eating her greens too? She must be feeling quite a bit better then.
Good, the Reptaid & liquid calcium should be great additions to help her out. I am really hoping
for a full recovery for her.

Keep us posted on her.

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Re: Gout, MBD, Nurrological, Injury?

Postby DanielleGia920 » Wed Nov 15, 2017 6:46 am

Just wanted to say thank you to everyone especially AHBD and ellenD who offered their knowledge and advice! And a special thanks to Tracie, thank you for sharing your expertise and knowledge with me. I’m sure your a very busy women yet you still took the time to answer my 7,000 questions 😂. Had it not been for this site my bearded dragon probably wouldn’t have made it. The only advice I got from my vet was to give allopurinol each day. It was from all of you that I learned a lot about purines and how to adjust the diet and the benefits of serrapeptase, cherry juice, alfalfa powder and natural supplements to help with parasites and worms. I came in here not knowing a single thing about bearded dragons So thank you for sharing all your knoweldge with me!

I’m sure Deka is thankful as well. She has not moved from her basking rock in over a month but the past two days every time I look she’s in a different spot 👍🏼 That’s amazing for her!
[Click image to enlarge]
[Click image to enlarge]
[Click image to enlarge]
[Click image to enlarge]
[Click image to enlarge]
[Click image to enlarge]

Thank you,

Danielle
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Re: Gout, MBD, Nurrological, Injury?

Postby EllenD » Wed Nov 15, 2017 9:49 am

She looks awesome!!! Yay DEKA! See, she's a fighter! I'm so happy for you and your son, you've been through the ringer and you have cared enough about her to devote a good portion of your time to helping her through this. Not many people care that much about their dragons, unfortunately, as Tracie already said, they're not dogs or cats so they're not that big a deal...I have always gotten upset even about my goldfish dying! Lol...

Just an FYI to, I had to take Dee Dee to my Certified Herp Vet yesterday (I haven't been on here much because he took a turn for the worst). He has lost enough weight that I said "okay, time to go", and he got me in the same day I called (I just love him). Dee Dee has a horrible case of pinworms, an "infestation" as he put it...Then Nix, my year and almost 4 month old rescue with MBD had one visible in his poop, so off his fecal sample went this morning to be tested too, but he's going on the Panacur too. I've never really had a sick beardie except for a URI years ago that cleared in a day or two, so this is really troublesome for me. So far Izzy, my almost year old girl, is fine, she's not been sick a day in her life, so she's been exiled to my master bedroom upstairs with the door shut and a special pillow set up by the window (since she can't be in the big bay window downstairs). Izzy is not amused, she's more upset than Dee Dee is, lol. I even took a special 2 hour drive one way to Harrisburg to pick up 2 MegaRays and lamps that I set up around my bedroom for her, along with a ramp to the window, and I lugged her huge enclosure up their and put it on the floor, so she has free reign of my bedroom...Still not amused! I'm assuming that their last BSFL shipment was contaminated, so I tossed out about 700 worms, UHG. No one is amused here right now in Happy Valley...

Anyway, I asked my vet about treating a dragon for pinworms with Panacur while they were going through the first phases of treatment for gout with severe swelling, pain, lethargy, etc. He immediately spit out a suggestion that he formulated by himself for just that situation (and for coccidia too), and it blew me away...

He had a frilled dragon years ago with visceral gout who was on Allopurinol for most of his life, and just as he started to come around, lose the swelling, etc., he came down with pinworms that were visible in his feces. So he started researching and found that farmers have been treating their cattle, horses, and goats for pinworms with Panacur, in addition to rabbits with pinworms, with Alfalfa pellets that are medicated with Panacur. Since he was already feeding crushed alfalfa pellets to his dragon for a safe form of protein with his gout, he called Penn State's AgSci department to see what dosing they used, how they dosed the alfalfa, etc., and found out that many livestock and rabbit feed companies sell already medicated alfalfa pellets, both with Panacur for the pinworms, and with something for Coccidia as well, though I forget what medication he said they are available with to treat Coccidia...So he went to a Quality Farm and Fleet store (used to be here, now they're all Tractor Supply) and bought bags of the alfalfa pellets already medicated with Panacur and figured out the dosing. So now whenever he gets a dragon with gout (who he usually recommends alfalfa to anyway as their source of protein) who also tests positive for a high pinworm or coccidia infection, he gives them the correct dose of already medicated, crushed alfalfa pellets! He says he's had nothing but fantastic results with this treatment, no lethargy or lack of appetite from the Panacur or the other Coccidia medicated pellets, and it takes very little powder to treat a dragon, as the bulk from the alfalfa flushes the pinworms out to begin with, and the very small amount of Panacur that's in the powdered alfalfa stops the females from laying anymore eggs almost immediately. So it only takes one single dose of the Panacur medicated alfalfa pellet powder mixed into some baby food to completely eradicate the pinworms. He told me he's never had a single positive follow-up fecal test after one dose!!!

He keeps these tiny, plastic containers of already measured out doses of the crushed alfalfa pellet powder with labels on them that list what the powder is and the dosing instructions for one single dosing on them, and gives them out free of cost to his patients who test positive for high counts of pinworms. He gives this as a treatment to both his reptiles with and without gout because it works so much more effectively and efficiently than just dosing Panacur or a medication for Coccidia, and for the reptiles with gout it's an amazingly easy and harmless way to treat them for the parasites while they are already going through gout treatment!!! He buys the already medicated alfalfa pellets (both the ones with Panacur for pinworms and the ones with the medication that treats coccidia) at our local Tractor Supply, and he said he can get over a year's worth of doses for both from a 1 pound bag of each type of pellets. He said a single bag of medicated pellets costs around $9, unfortunately you have to buy a 1 pound bag and only need a few pellets from it, but he said it's still way cheaper than paying for multiple doses of Panacur or Toltrazuril.

So after the fecal tests he diagnosed Dee Dee with high counts of pinworms (coccidia was low so we're not treating it right now), and he gave me one of the little containers of medicated alfalfa powder. I mixed it with some squash baby food and some unflavored Pedialyte last night, it came to about 10ml of baby food to get all of the alfalfa powder fully mixed in and still liquid. So I gave Dee Dee 5ml of it after we got home and he'd been under his lights for about 2 hours, then put him back in his enclosure for a few hours while he just lazed around, then gave him the other 5ml about 3 hours before bed (7:00 p.m.). This morning I turned his lights on around 6:30 a.m. and saw nothing unusual, he woke up and gave me the usual morning stink-eye and crawled up on his hammock under his UVB tube. I ran to get coffee and some groceries and got back by 10:00 a.m. and he had left a huge but completely normal looking poop and urate in his tank, so I immediately went to clean it up (I already completely disinfected all 3 enclosures yesterday with hot water and Hibiclens), and that's when I saw that the poop was riddled with pinworms. Yuck. Lots of them. I called my vet before dropping off Nix's fecal sample this morning and told him about all the pinworms in Dee Dee's poop, and he said that's how the bulk in the alfalfa works, much like Psyllium Husk does as a laxative, and the Panacur should do its job too. He gave me a second dose of the medicated powder for Dee Dee and then 2 for Nix too, just to make sure we get all the eggs. So I'm going to give Dee Dee his second dose today and Nix his first dose today, then his second dose tomorrow, and that should do it.

The thing that I'm noticing that is important to me is today Dee Dee is running all over the place, his eyes look brighter and not at all sunken, his color is the same bright, stunning red it was before he started vomiting and stopped eating, and he's eaten a big bowl of greens already today along with taking a nice big drink of water out of the bowl I put in for him temporarily. So I'm anxious to get Nix's first dose of alfalfa in him because he's not looking like he feels well at all...The vet told me no live insects until after their second dose of medicated alfalfa pellets, just the pellets in the baby food, some greens, and water...

Sorry I rambled here, but I am just amazed by this considering that you're dealing with a dragon that has a bad case of gout and was diagnosed prior to the gout with Pinworms and Coccidia, and you've been feeding alfalfa pellets as a safe form of protein...I know you said that she hates the alfalfa, but it might be worth looking into as a safe, quick way to treat her for both the parasites without making her sick from giving her straight meds, plus she'll be getting the healthy protein at the same time...

This is why I love my CRV, he always thinks outside the box and finds different ways of treating reptiles other than just pumping them full of harsh prescription meds that always make them sick!!! And he loves Tractor Supply, lol. And he didn't charge me a cent for the office visit or the 4 doses of medicated alfalfa pellets, I only paid for the 2 fecal tests, a total of $40!!! And he's a Board-Certified Reptile Vet who has been practicing and treating ONLY reptiles and amphibians for over 20 years.
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Re: Gout, MBD, Nurrological, Injury?

Postby DanielleGia920 » Wed Nov 15, 2017 10:03 am

Oh wow! I want that! How the heck do I get it? It’s sold that way in stores or did he mix the 2 together? Is it alfalfa powder or pellets? I’ve never noticed a pinworm in her stools, thank god cause I would probably freak out! Very cool, will have to look into it. Thanks for sharing!
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Re: Gout, MBD, Nurrological, Injury?

Postby DanielleGia920 » Wed Nov 15, 2017 10:18 am

I found it! [Click image to enlarge]


I’m just so confused on how I would dose that for her 😳 it says 1 lb for every 1000lbs of body weight 😱 she’s only 157 grams lol I don’t even know where to begin to figure that one out 😂 what does she get like a quarter of one pellet 🤪
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Re: Gout, MBD, Nurrological, Injury?

Postby Drache613 » Fri Nov 17, 2017 1:09 am

Hello,

WOW, Deka looks really good, very happy! She was actually pushing out her beard there, too. :D
I am so glad that she is feeling so much better now & has become more active also.
I am sure that she is going to continue to improve now, with the meds & supplementation.
I think she's on the road to recovery finally! Her demeanor does looks very good too.
I have seen the medicated pellets, actually that way of medicating is pretty good & very
convenient.
That is going to take some math to medicate with it being so concentrated! LOL
I'm glad your two are doing better, Ellen.


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Re: Gout, MBD, Nurrological, Injury?

Postby DanielleGia920 » Sat Nov 18, 2017 9:52 am

Whohoooo, she is on all fours today! She could not extend the back right leg up until this morning! She is standing on it and using it normally!
[Click image to enlarge]

The lower picture was her on Tuesday, the back right leg was laying on the ground and she still could not stand on it! Top picture is of her today! Leg is extended, the foot is back in its normal position and she is walking on it normally! Besides one pinkie finger that’s still a little swollen and the bump on her knee, she is pretty close to 💯 percent!!! Weighing in at 165 grams this morning, she has gained 105 grams in 3 weeks! She is climbing, jumping, running and thriving! We can finally put this thread to rest because...

🦎 Deka is oficially back in business! 🦎

Thanks all!

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Re: Gout, MBD, Nurrological, Injury?

Postby Drache613 » Sat Nov 18, 2017 8:25 pm

Hello Danielle,

That's great Deka is recovering so nicely now! It looks like she is feeling a lot better if she's
actually using that leg & walking on it. :D
She sure has started improving quickly now that everything is all correct for her. She is really
gaining weight now also. I think you got it taken care of before it got too bad. I'm so happy
for your both.
Please keep us posted on her, just so we can see her progress.

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