Gout, MBD, Nurrological, Injury?

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Re: Gout, MBD, Nurrological, Injury?

Postby EllenD » Mon Oct 30, 2017 7:14 am

Well Dee Dee ate last night finally, and he's acting normally now, I think something didn't sit well with him or he ate too many BSFL, he just eats and eats and eats, I cut him off short of what he wants as it is and he still made himself sick, lol...

Hope things are still going well on the Gout front, hopefully giving her the correct Allopurinol dosage will help, I'm sure it will, lol...
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Re: Gout, MBD, Nurrological, Injury?

Postby DanielleGia920 » Mon Oct 30, 2017 9:48 am

Glad Dee Dee is better!

Thank you everyone for your replies! Thanks Tracie, I gave her the .26 ml dose yesterday and today.


Day 9 on allopurinol...
[Click image to enlarge]


Swelling seems to have gone down a little bit. Her mobility has improved greatly, as well as her spirits. She's only getting the silkworms, a baby arugula and alfalfa powder slurry along with fluids daily. Things are looking much better! 👍🏼💃🏻

Once this is under control, I can start working on the coccidia and pinworms 😳

Thanks everyone for the great advice!

Danielle
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Re: Gout, MBD, Nurrological, Injury?

Postby AHBD » Mon Oct 30, 2017 9:51 am

So nice to read that she's doing better !
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Re: Gout, MBD, Nurrological, Injury?

Postby Drache613 » Mon Oct 30, 2017 8:40 pm

Hello Danielle,

That is terrific she is doing so much better now! She looks pretty alert there in the picture, too.
Did she take the extra meds without any trouble? Hopefully her swelling will continue to go down
now, with the adjustment of meds & a different diet right now! She does look happy. :D
Great that Dee Dee is doing better now. They can eat too much that can upset their systems &
it happens frequently on here.

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Re: Gout, MBD, Nurrological, Injury?

Postby DanielleGia920 » Thu Nov 02, 2017 7:42 am

Hi guys thanks for the support!

Today is day 13 since we started the allopurinol. Ever since I increased the dose it seems like something is bothering her. Maybe it's upsetting her stomach. Or maybe it's the combination of the alfalfa powder, the silkworms and the allopurinol. Not sure. She absolutely hates the alfalfa powder. I tried dusting the silkworm in calcium and a little alfalfa powder and she gobbled it up and then starting shaking her head ferociously to get it out of her mouth. The silkworm went flying from her mouth and mulberry sludge sprayed everywhere! Gross!

Her front "palm" of her hand is swollen and she has a knot on that elbow. She always keeps that arm in an awkward position, stretched out behind her. It must hurt to bend it. [Click image to enlarge]
[Click image to enlarge]
she is not moving around much. Her back leg is still swollen and she still has the lump on the back knee but I think the swelling may have went down some because the scales on the knee are touching once again. Or maybe the scales grew to accomadate the swollen leg, it looks like a shed may start soon on that leg.

Not feeling very positive about her progress. I feel so bad, she hardly ever moves. I can't imagine laying in the same spot for weeks, how depressing! On top of that she still has the pinworms and coccidia, we never started treatment on either. I'm sure that's not helping the situation any.maybe that's why her energy levels were never the way they should have been. Can I think about starting treatment on one of them at a time? Or is that out of the question?
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Re: Gout, MBD, Nurrological, Injury?

Postby EllenD » Thu Nov 02, 2017 8:21 am

I definitely wouldn't put her on any meds for the parasites any time soon, that is usually exactly what causes them to start going downhill quickly. And honestly, they live with coccidia and pinworms in their gastrointestinal tracts throughout their lives anyway, and most vets medicate for them when they don't have to...I don't think it's the parasites at all, I think she's sore from the gout. It's an extremely painful condition, I know several people who suffer from it and when they have flare-ups they take weeks off of work because they can't walk or sit in the same position all day.

After seeing her situation where she was not given any medication for the pain and swelling, and comparing it to the other dragons I've seen with gout (and honestly we've had cases that were much worse as far as their swelling went) I really think this particular bout that she is going through has been a lot tougher simply because she has done it with no pain meds. She's definitely a trooper!

Now that the Allopurinol is just starting to kick in and shown some reduction in the swelling, hopefully her Uric Acid level will start to drop, and that's when you'll see some marked improvement. It is a long, frustrating process to watch them go through, I know, but she's getting into the upswing now. It typically takes 3 weeks to a month for the Allopurinol to really start lowering their UA levels and they start to feel less pain, but if you can imagine being sore like that in all your extremities constantly then you can understand...The only thing I can compare to Gout was when I totalled my car in 2012, it had 9 airbags including a knee bag, so I got nailed in the head/face/chest, my left side, and both my legs from my knees down. The next day I wanted to die, seriously, and I had pain meds from the Emergency Room! 2 broken ribs, a hairline fracture in my sternum, a concussion, and my legs were completely black/purple from my knees down to my toes and so swollen it looked like I had gained 50 pounds overnight...So that feeling of soreness all over where you can't even move that lasts for weeks and weeks is just awful. The only thing that really helps is time, though I still think she should have gotten some Metacam or Tramadol, usually they sleep a bit longer when taking them, but they are a lot more mobile and you can tell the pain meds make them feel better...So she's a fighter, it's just going to take a little more time.

But definitely do not put her on any Antiprotozoan or Antiparasitic meds right now, that will only kill her appetite COMPLETELY, then she'll stop eating, and things will go downhill fast...
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Re: Gout, MBD, Nurrological, Injury?

Postby DanielleGia920 » Thu Nov 02, 2017 8:48 am

Ok, will do Ellen. Thanks for the advice! I called the vet again and left a message with the secretary asking if the doctor could call in colchicine and /or metacam or tramadal and she's just not calling me back. Is there anything else I could giver her? Like a tiny dose of infants Motrin? 🤷‍♀️
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Re: Gout, MBD, Nurrological, Injury?

Postby Drache613 » Thu Nov 02, 2017 10:11 pm

Hello,

Did the vet call you back about a pain or anti-inflammatory medication? I think the
colchicine is pretty effective, personally.
How many silkworms is she eating at a time? If she isn't eating many, you could consider
using straight silkworm enzyme to get her levels built up to a higher level that would be
more helpful.
How is she doing?
If she just does not like the alfalfa you may need to leave it out if it causes her to vomit &
upsets her so much. Her joints are very likely hurting her which is probably the main reason
that she isn't moving around much.
I agree, it wouldn't be a good idea to medicate her for coccidia or worms unless those levels
are so high that it is interfering with health. If you think that her levels could be high, you
can try a few home remedies. Try giving mint & basil daily for a few days, mixed in with her
food or make a greens slurry.
Let us know how she is doing.

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Re: Gout, MBD, Nurrological, Injury?

Postby DanielleGia920 » Sat Nov 04, 2017 10:44 am

Hello,

Nope, the vet has not returned any of my phone calls in the last two weeks. I guess any additional counseling or prescriptions will require another visit 😤

Dekas eating 2 silkworms late morning and three in the evening along with greens squash and lots of fluid daily. I stopped giving the alfalfa powder because she hated it so much. Lol

She walked around the house yesterday for a about 10 minutes. She seems to be doing a little better. Her back legs have gone down a bit, her front legs/fingers seem swollen.

Her is a picture of her this morning, doing some morning stretches lmao 😂 [Click image to enlarge]
her front right arm seems swollen now. But overall she seems much better!

I will defiantly hold of on the parasite treatment. I don't think she is overloaded with parasites as she is gaining lots of wait, growing each week and has never had diarrhea or any other sign of parasites other than not being active but that most likely has always been from the gout.

Thanks for all your help!!
Danielle
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Re: Gout, MBD, Nurrological, Injury?

Postby AHBD » Sat Nov 04, 2017 1:57 pm

How nice to read this good news ! And she sure knows how to stretch those gams. :)
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Re: Gout, MBD, Nurrological, Injury?

Postby Drache613 » Sat Nov 04, 2017 9:14 pm

Hello Danielle,

Well, hopefully she is feeling better now! If she is moving around more, maybe her joints
are starting to loosen up some.
So, her back legs have decreased in swelling but her arms are still swollen? That can happen,
with everything moving around & hopefully breaking up.
How utterly frustrating the vet hasn't called back at all. Sometimes they are just so exasperating
to deal with!
That is a pretty good amount on the silkworms. It should have enough active enzyme to help
out. That's ok if you took the alfalfa out right now, since she just didn't like it. LOL
If she is gaining weight, then she likely doesn't have a heavy worm or parasite level, I agree.
She looks comfortable doing her morning stretches with those sexy legs posing! LOL

Keep us posted on her progress.

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Re: Gout, MBD, Nurrological, Injury?

Postby DanielleGia920 » Mon Nov 06, 2017 9:27 am

Everyday she seems a little better. I think, with the increased dose, we are actually seeing some progress! She is walking and climbing more each day. I promised my son, his bearded dragon would see him off to college one day, I just may be able to keep that promise 👍🏼 She is growing fast, she's up to 143 grams now and 14 inches. Since she continues to gain wait her dose of allopurinol should now be 2.9 mg if Im going to continue to give her 20mg per kilogram of body weight. Should I continue to adjust her dose accordingly?
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Re: Gout, MBD, Nurrological, Injury?

Postby Drache613 » Mon Nov 06, 2017 11:15 pm

Hello,

That is excellent she continues to show improvement each day, no matter how small the
changes are! Though, if she is becoming more active then her joints must be starting to
feel quite a bit better.
Yes, for now, you can continue to increase her dose accordingly for her weight gain so she
gets the correct amount for her weight. Once her swelling is all gone & her body has begun
to normalize, you can take her down to a maintenance level.
I hope that she keeps on doing better!

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Re: Gout, MBD, Nurrological, Injury?

Postby EllenD » Tue Nov 07, 2017 10:57 am

Just checking in to see how the patient is doing...I'm glad she's getting better a little each day,. that's a sign she's finally on the "upswing". I can't believe she's gaining weight consistently throughout this entire ordeal, what a positive sign! I don't know how old your son is, but I think she's going to be around for a long, long time...hey, what's her name? Either you've not mentioned it or I've just forgotten, lol. I'm sorry your vet isn't keeping in communication with you, damn vets (and human doctors), they act like it's a hardship for them to return a phone call within a week. I am starting to realize just how lucky I am to have had the same Certified Reptile Vet for the last 15 years and the same Certified Avian Vet for the last 6 years. I never really thought about it being difficult to find a good specialty vet because I was born, raised, and have lived in the State College, PA area all my life, minus a year in Charlotte, NC (never needed a vet down there, I actually drove the 8+ hours back to State College once with my first dragon, Iggy, in 2007 when he had an upper respiratory infection so he could see my CRV, I used it as an excuse to visit friends and family, lol). I have always absolutely hated Penn State University, their football team (all their sports teams), I'm a die-hard Notre Dame fan and Penn State football is literally a religion here, more like a cult actually, it's hard to describe. Anyway, I never realized how lucky I have been to have access to their School of Agriculture and their School of Animal Health Sciences. I just always assumed you could find a good Certified Herp or Avian vet anywhere in the US. Wow, have my eyes been open wide just from reading the posts telling stories about trips to "exotics" vets...frustrating indeed.

Well, if she's consistently gaining weight and eating regularly then the parasites, whatever they were identified as being, are definitely not an issue right now, so that's awesome. And yes, I would definitely weigh her daily and keep adjusting her Allopurinol dosage as needed, because it wasn't until you adjusted the dose that she showed an almost immediate improvement (of course, she was getting half the dose she should have been getting, lol).

Tracie, on the subject of parasites and natural treatments, you mentioned Basil and Mint. I'm not at all familiar with any natural parasite treatments for dragons, like I said I've always strictly followed and trusted modern medicine and stuck to prescription meds, but recently I'm swaying in the total opposite direction (which amazes me). You've really opened my eyes up to this topic, and I really appreciate and thank you for that, because lately the sheer number of over-medicated dragons on here has gotten totally out of control, to the point that the owners don't even really know what's wrong with their dragons, they just keep getting different prescription meds on a "just in case" or a "guessing" basis without any diagnostic testing at all. And that's not responsible medicine, they're playing with strong, harsh, potentially lethal drugs that cause the dragons so much physical stress that they become worse off than they were to begin with. So my question to you is, do you have any particular suggestions as to natural treatments for both Coccidia and pinworms? The reason I'm asking is that Dee Dee has gone back and forth in the past week with his appetite, he was really starting to worry me so yesterday I looked at his fecal sample under my scope and I saw scant Coccidia and 6 pinworm eggs, so I have to think that this is the cause of his spotty appetite. He hasn't eaten on his own now in 4 days, I've been force feeding BSFL and slurries I make in my blender that include collard, mustard, and turnip greens, arugula, butternut squash, and some RepCal or Mazuri Bearded Dragon Pellets for protein (he's only 6 months old and I'm out of Alfalfa, just ordered some), along with calcium, multivitamin, probitotics with digestive enzymes, and bee pollen. So I'd love to throw in whatever herbs or supplements you know of working to treat Coccidia and Pinworms. I'm dropping a fecal sample off to my Certified Reptile Vet as soon as he goes today and I asked him to do a gram stain and also a streak plate to confirm the Coccidia and the Pinworms, plus anything I may have missed, and rule out any bacterial or other protozoa. I told my vet I'd rather try some natural treatments for a week before putting him on Panacur (I don't think the Coccidia is nearly high enough to need treating with prescription drugs, but I'll definitely treat it with natural herbs, supplements, etc. just in case), and he was fine with that as long as I do a repeat fecal after the week of natural treatment, and I get him on the meds if he still isn't eating on his own. So I'd appreciate any recommendations you could give me Tracie, thanks again...

And I'm sorry I hijacked your thread, lol, but it was just coincidental that Tracie mentioned the Basil and Mint to treat parasites, so I figured we could both learn something about this.
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Re: Gout, MBD, Nurrological, Injury?

Postby DanielleGia920 » Wed Nov 08, 2017 1:07 pm

Defiantly not easy finding a good reptile vet. 😨 I live about 20 minutes from New York City so it's not like I'm in the middle of no where yet I'm still having a hard time finding one! An 8 hour drive?!?! Oh my goodness, I barely have the patience for 2 hours lmao Anything over 3 hours warrants a flight 😂

Her name is Deka, like Dekagram, meaning 10. My son is only 10 so she needs to be around for another 7 years! She has pinworms and coccidia too. Ide be interested to learn how mint and basil help with parasites, very interesting!

I should've kept my mouth shut the other day when I said I didn't think the parasites where bothering her because she's never had diarrhea. Go figure, since I said that, she now has diarrhea and seems very lethargic. The only time she moves is when I take her out of her viv. And the only reason she moves then is because she is not very comfortable being outside her viv. I've only had her for a couple months and we haven't done much exploring outside the tank. She has never been very active. I hear stories where people say they're beardie comes up to the door to be taken out or get mad if they don't get enough attention. She has never been like that. Whenever I walk in the room she kinda jumps, a nervous jump, like she's trying to cling onto the rock, as if to say "please go away and don't touch me" lol

She seems very lethargic today, her eyes are half closed and she seems "nervous". Her back leg is so big, when you compare it to the other leg it's crazy! That's when you realize just how small the leg should actually be! 😱[Click image to enlarge]


She's still gaining wait, which I think is good. She's 147 grams today. She's gained 87 grams in 3 weeks. More than doubled her body weight. Should I worry about the weight gain? Could it be a sign of kidney failure, could she be filling up with toxins/fluids?
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