Bump on Dragon's Leg

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Poxinabox

Member
Hello, everyone, first time posting but your board has been a wealth of knowledge for the past couple months!

My bearded dragon has recently developed a bump on his back right leg. It's sensitive when touched, but hasn't seemed to bother him otherwise. It's started to get a little bigger over the past 2 days, though. Pics at bottom. After doing some preliminary research, I *think* it might be a cricket bite? But my reading has also taken me to infection, gout, etc. so I'm hoping this looks familiar to someone so I can prep before I take him to the vet.

Anachronos is nearly 4 months old, 60 grams, and lives in a 40 gallon terrarium, with a heat lamp set keeping his hot side at 110-115 degrees, cool side at 80-85. UVA\UVB source is a ReptiSun 10.0 long tube bulb in the hood fixture. Eats very well with a diet of dusted & loaded crickets, supplemented with phoenix worms and the occasional horn worm if the store has extremely small ones in (they usually don't). He also has a variety of fresh veggies available throughout the day, although the past week and a bit he's decided not to touch them anymore. He's active, healthy, last X-rays were perfect, the vet thinks he's in beautiful condition (but we've scheduled another vet visit on Tuesday just to be safe with this). Using repti-carpet-type base for the tank (he doesn't ever get his nails caught as far as I can see). I think that covers most everything...

Thanks in advance!

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CooperDragon

BD.org Sicko
Staff member
Moderator
I'm not sure what that is. I don't see a wound or any outside damage which makes me think it started internally. Might be a good idea to go to an experienced reptile vet and have it checked out. The fluid from inside (assuming it's fluid rather than solid) can be tested to get a better idea of what's going on there. If it's growing that is a concern to me so I'd have it checked out.
 

kingofnobbys

BD.org Sicko
Poxinabox":1a77tvho said:
Hello, everyone, first time posting but your board has been a wealth of knowledge for the past couple months!

My bearded dragon has recently developed a bump on his back right leg. It's sensitive when touched, but hasn't seemed to bother him otherwise. It's started to get a little bigger over the past 2 days, though. Pics at bottom. After doing some preliminary research, I *think* it might be a cricket bite? But my reading has also taken me to infection, gout, etc. so I'm hoping this looks familiar to someone so I can prep before I take him to the vet.
<<<< Unlikely, is more likely an abscess and needs to be drained by a vet and a course of antiobiotics given.

Anachronos is nearly 4 months old, 60 grams, and lives in a 40 gallon terrarium, with a heat lamp set keeping his hot side at 110-115 degrees,
>>> 115F (46 degC) IS WAY TOO HOT , basking spot NO HOTTER THAN 40-43 degC , refer to this viewtopic.php?f=5&t=233516 , exposure that that temperature is lethal to a bearded dragon (especially a hatchling/juvenile).

cool side at 80-85. UVA\UVB source is a ReptiSun 10.0 long tube bulb in the hood fixture.
<<< T8 or T5HO (important , what colour are the end caps ? see this viewtopic.php?f=6&t=236122&p=1815225#p1815225

Eats very well with a diet of dusted & loaded crickets, supplemented with phoenix worms and the occasional horn worm if the store has extremely small ones in (they usually don't). He also has a variety of fresh veggies available throughout the day, although the past week and a bit he's decided not to touch them anymore. He's active, healthy, last X-rays were perfect, the vet thinks he's in beautiful condition (but we've scheduled another vet visit on Tuesday just to be safe with this). Using repti-carpet-type base for the tank (he doesn't ever get his nails caught as far as I can see). I think that covers most everything...

Thanks in advance!

20171007_191038.jpg

20171007_191129.jpg

20171007_194003.jpg
 

Poxinabox

Member
Original Poster
<<<< Unlikely, is more likely an abscess and needs to be drained by a vet and a course of antiobiotics given.

Yeah, as stated, we're going to the vet on Tuesday anyway, but if it's an abscess is there much that can be done until then?

>>> 115F (46 degC) IS WAY TOO HOT , basking spot NO HOTTER THAN 40-43 degC , refer to this viewtopic.php?f=5&t=233516 , exposure that that temperature is lethal to a bearded dragon (especially a hatchling/juvenile)

There does seem to be a lot of conflicting information online about what the right temperature is for a beardie his age; the temperature was mostly settled on for what he seemed to prefer, though. We had it set to 100-105 for awhile and he seemed to have his stress marks more often and was constantly climbing to get closer to the heat source. At 110 he's got a perfectly clear white neck and belly, basks and wanders, and when it gets slightly hotter he's opening his mouth to regulate. Also might be of interest: the temperature gauge is raised on the terrarium wall to be closer to the lights only because the fixture for his hammock is in the way, so down near the bottom is likely more manageable (and not quite as warm as indicated).

<<< T8 or T5HO (important , what colour are the end caps ? see this viewtopic.php?f=6&t=236122&p=1815225#p1815225

T5HO, as recommended by the reptile specialty store we've since been going to for his food; end caps are gold. Beyond that, he also gets approximately 30 mins of actual sunshine every day that has sun, although with the weather changing that'll be getting reduced to zero soon.
 

EllenD

Gray-bearded Member
I totally agree with Knobby's that his maximum temperature anywhere in his enclosure should be 110 at the absolute maximum, 115 is in the lethal range if he's exposed to it over time. Any higher than 115 can actually be quickly lethal. Also, his Cool Side Ambient should be no hotter than 80 so that gis a very distinct difference between his Hot Side Ambient (between 88-93) so that he has a place to go to at all times that is distinctly different from the Hot Side to cool down...Are you using stick-on thermometers? I couldn't tell from the way you wrote about your thermometer, but if so then you absolutely must go and buy a $10 digital thermometer that has a probe on a wire ASAP, and then remeasure his Basking Spot (between 105-110 maximum), his Hot Side Ambient (between 88-93), and his Cool Side Ambient (between 75-80), being sure to allow the probe to sit on the spot you're measuring for at least 20-30 minutes before reading the temperature. You need to do this each time you take a temperature. THOSE STICK-ON THERMOMETERS, WHETHER THEY ARE THE ANALOG, ROUND ONE OR THE DIGITAL ONES THAT HAVE NO PROBE, ARE VERY, VERY INACCURATE, USUALLY OFF BY UP TO 20 DEGREES ON THE LOW SIDE DURING TESTING! Plus, you absolutely have no way to measure the temperature on his Basking Spot with a stick-on thermometer, they can only measure ambient air temperatures, and this is something that is extremely important to do weekly, as not only does it need to be in the correct range for him to bask in, but there needs to be a distinct difference between his Basking Spot temperature and his Hot Side Ambient temperature, as he goes to his basking spot after eating or when he wants a higher temperature and direct UVB light, while his Hot Side temperature is for when he wants to be warm but is not trying to digest food or get direct, close UVB light. So if you do not have a digital probe thermometer (or a temperature gun, they are more expensive but also accurate and can be used to measure surface temperatures and ambient temperatures as well) you need to get one ASAP and remeasure his 3 temperature zones and then adjust accordingly. If you are already using a digital probe thermometer or a gun, then I highly suggest that you raise your basking light up enough to lower his temperatures by at least 5 degrees to ensure he will not suffer from heat exhaustion over time.

As far as his foot goes, it's very hard to tell what it is, it doesn't look like typical gout to me, as that usually involves the entire foot, or an entire toe or entire joint to swell up suddenly. The swelling he has on his foot looks to be very localized and almost encapsulated rather than dispersed, so I'd guess it' either a cricket bite that is infected (can you see a bite mark or a point of entry wound, which can simply be a little pin-point dot in the middle of the bump? We can't see that closely in the photos), an abscess or localized infection (again there should be an external mark or wound, but you never know with abscesses), or it's swelling from an muscular-skeletal injury. You're doing the right thing by getting him to a vet quickly to get it checked out, I hope that the vet is an experienced reptile vet that will be willing to run tests to find out what it actually is, rather than just looking at it and guessing, then prescribing Baytril, we're seeing an awful lot of that lately, and it's frustrating.

I'm not sure what to tell you to do for him until the vet appointment on Tuesday, as I can't tell if there is any external wound or point of entry for a bite that would benefit from an antiseptic and a topical antibiotic or raw, unpasteurized honey. If it's completely internal swelling then there isn't a whole lot you can do except to watch it and make sure that if it continues to get larger or it turns black and shows any signs of necrosis that you get him to the vet tomorrow as an emergency appointment, or if he suddenly gets a black beard and it stays, that indicates he's in a lot of pain and needs to get help asap. For now just watch it and get him to the vet appointment Tuesday.
 

Poxinabox

Member
Original Poster
So tomorrow I'm forcing a detour to go pick up a digital probe thermometer (the ones we have were indeed the stick-on dials), as well as a new bulb (without the gold end caps) for him. I'd rather prevent any problems before they occur, so I appreciate the aid in precautions. Thank you both!

Took a look at his bump again just before his bedtime, and where yesterday it looked a little pink, today it's the same colour as the rest of his foot.It doesn't seem any bigger today, and he was resting directly on it for awhile until he picked himself up and shifted.
 

Poxinabox

Member
Original Poster
Update:

Anachronos was apparently a champ at the vet's (my wife took him), and the vet couldn't tell immediately what the bump was (same issue: no appearance of injury, no obvious signs pointing conclusively to anything specific injury). So as a precaution they took another X-Ray and compared it to the one they took 2 weeks ago. The bones appear fine, but just in case she's sending the new one away for a second opinion to a reptile radiologist specialist (or something like that). They took a fluid sample from the bump, which Anachronos didn't fight or even react much to, and we're going to get the results of that on Thursday.

But then at home, he was rather annoyed. He had his brown stress marks showing whenever he was back in his terrarium, and refused to eat the rest of the day. Also, as a new development, he had his first (and hopefully only) ever liquid-projectile poop when my wife took him out after he started glass-surfing a few hours later. (note: his stress marks cleared up after this but still seemed particularly put-out)

This morning he's been better, and ate a few worms and a good number of crickets. The bumb hasn't subsided, but hasn't grown, either.

Unfortunately, both places my wife and I tried did NOT sell the probe thermometer, and the place I went to didn't sell the kind of bulb for the hood we have, so we're still looking for that. I may just order both online. Any suggestions for a specific thermometer that people trust?
 

kingofnobbys

BD.org Sicko
Poxinabox":k0pt5rb1 said:
<<<< Unlikely, is more likely an abscess and needs to be drained by a vet and a course of antiobiotics given.

Yeah, as stated, we're going to the vet on Tuesday anyway, but if it's an abscess is there much that can be done until then?

>>> 115F (46 degC) IS WAY TOO HOT , basking spot NO HOTTER THAN 40-43 degC , refer to this viewtopic.php?f=5&t=233516 , exposure that that temperature is lethal to a bearded dragon (especially a hatchling/juvenile)

There does seem to be a lot of conflicting information online about what the right temperature is for a beardie his age; the temperature was mostly settled on for what he seemed to prefer, though. We had it set to 100-105 for awhile and he seemed to have his stress marks more often and was constantly climbing to get closer to the heat source. At 110 he's got a perfectly clear white neck and belly, basks and wanders, and when it gets slightly hotter he's opening his mouth to regulate. Also might be of interest: the temperature gauge is raised on the terrarium wall to be closer to the lights only because the fixture for his hammock is in the way, so down near the bottom is likely more manageable (and not quite as warm as indicated).

<<< T8 or T5HO (important , what colour are the end caps ? see this https://www.beardeddragon.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=236122&p=1815225#p1815225
T5HO, as recommended by the reptile specialty store we've since been going to for his food; end caps are gold. Beyond that, he also gets approximately 30 mins of actual sunshine every day that has sun, although with the weather changing that'll be getting reduced to zero soon.

>>> If the endcaps are gold , highly recommend having the output UVI OR UVB tested if you plan on keeping for full 6 months , I believe the tube you have is one of the dodgey ones which decayed much faster than normal and has a poorer output UV intensity , I wouldn't risk it , I'd be returning it and swapping for one of newer production runs or an ARCADIA 12%UVB tube.
 

Poxinabox

Member
Original Poster
Okay, update.

So we've seen the vet twice since the last post I made. The vet sent her assessment, the X-rays, and the samples away to the specialist she confers with, and the conclusion they came to was that somehow, some way, Anachronos has Osteomyelitis in the ankle. The first visit saw a new X-ray in case of injury (for which there was none obvious, but instead showed a deterioration of the bones), and they took a large fluid sample to identify what was in the bump. The second visit we dropped off a fecal sample and the vet attempted to take a second sample to grow a culture to determine which bacteria exactly is eating away at his bones. As EllenD suggested, Baytril was the antibiotic prescribed - but only until we can get a clear identification on the bacteria, which I'm crushed to say may not be immediately forthcoming as the second sample yielded very little fluid. We decided to send it anyway, small though the sample was, because I can't stomach the alternative.

I'm very anxious and worried. The specialist suggested surgery, though the doctor expressed caution considering his small size and the risk involved, but the specialist also suggested amputation at the pelvis as well and I'm absolutely heartbroken at the idea of him growing up with only 3 legs when he's so lively and adventurous right now.

My frustration level is off the chart. So far, the three vet visits alone have cost over $1000, and despite his otherwise excellent health, we're facing the possibility of making my baby dragon an amputee and we haven't even had him for 3 full months yet. Worse, nobody can tell me what went wrong with the infection so I can prevent it in the future, since there were no indications of damage. I'm not the praying type, but I definitely catch myself mentally making deals with the cosmos that this antibiotic works.

As to the lighting/heating situation, we got a fancy probe thermometer that tells us his basking spot is 98-102 degrees and the ambient temperature on the hot side is about 95. The stick-on thermometer is garbage and has been reading weirdly lately. The lighting situation is a little worse off; though still very new, I'd like to replace the bulb ASAP but the supply store that stocks it only has gold end-caps; I'm waiting to see their new stock, and ordering online if that doesn't present me a better option.
 

CooperDragon

BD.org Sicko
Staff member
Moderator
That's a rough one. I'm sorry to hear it but glad that you are able to provide such good care and have access to experienced doctors. I hope the antibiotics do the trick and get the infection under control quickly. It will be good to know what the results of the second test are so perhaps the antibiotics can be targeted more precisely. Amputation seems like an aggressive approach but I'd imagine it comes down to if the infection is out of control and spreading. If the infection can be contained by amputation then it may be a good option. Many dragons do just fine with missing limbs. They're tough, adaptable little ones if it comes to it. I would probably keep the antibiotics going for a bit and check back in and see the progress before going to an extreme though.

As far as lighting goes, can you use an Arcadia 12% bulb? They should fit in a T5 fixture of appropriate size. They can be ordered online fairly easily. For thermometers, I'd just get a couple of cheap digital thermometers with probes you can fix on the basking surface and on a cool side surface to check the gradient at a glance. If you want to spot check all over the place, a temp gun is probably the best bet. One like this will do https://www.amazon.com/Nubee-Temperature-Non-contact-Infrared-Thermometer/dp/B00CVHIJDK
 

Poxinabox

Member
Original Poster
Further update:

The bump on Anachronos' ankle hasn't increased in size, but hasn't decreased, either. He's been on antibiotics for a week and a half now, and after the first few days looked absolutely miserable. We put him on probiotics in the evening and that seemed to liven him up a bit more. Unfortunately the second fluid sample failed to yield any culture so we're sticking with the Baytril for the time being (the sample was small, and even the large sample the first time didn't give any indication of the specific bacteria causing the infection). That said, the swelling around the bump seems to have grown proportionately to the rest of the foot as well, as he's had a bit of a growth spurt. It seems consistent with photos of him, and seems to just be getting bigger as he gets bigger (and he really is!).

On another note, we also got his stool sample back and... he has parasites. Apparently they're not of a particular kind that ought to worry us too much (these kind, I forget their name, are fairly common and a lot of adults supposedly carry them, but as a growing juvenile he should be free of them). So for three days he's been on this anti-parasitic medication as well, and his mood has gone straight down the toilet. For the first time in his life he's lost some of his appetite. Thankfully, the sight of hornworms excites him enough to come careening out of whatever corner of the terrarium to devour them, and butter worms are a solid second, but he's uninterested in hunting his crickets unless they are hand-fed to him at the moment.

Oh, a new bulb was purchased, too. It's still a Reptisun 10.0 UVB T5H0 (couldn't find a local shop selling the Arcadia bulb mentioned above, may look online), but it has neither a gold end cap nor a red one; it's just a regular-looking silver end cap.

This little probe thermometer is great, and it looks like his temperature has been appropriate this entire time. The sticker thermometer, on the other hand, has gone weird and now reads his basking spot at about 70 degrees sometimes when we know it's around 102.

Anyway, I'll keep you posted, as the bump is still an ongoing issue.
 

EllenD

Gray-bearded Member
Oh my, so many vets making so many bad decisions, it's driving me crazy because they over medicate and this just makes the dragon needlessly go downhill...if his fecal sample tested positive for Coccidia or pinworms or the new one they're starting to needlessly treat is Pseudomonas, unless the count/load was in the high zone, which it doesn't sound like it was, they shouldn't have put him on any medication for it, especially since he has been taking the Baytril for so long, and he probably doesn't need it either. Either way his system is all messed up now simply due to the meds.

What medication did they give him for the "parasites"? There are a lot of options here depending on what parasite we're talking about, probably Coccidia, and some are harsh, some are extremely harsh, and if it was a low or moderate count/load of Coccidia that they detected, I would highly recommend that you stop the medication because all dragons have some coccidia in their gastrointestinal tracts, just as they all have some pinworms and some Pseudomonas...it's not necessary at all to treat a low to moderate coccidia count and the antiprotozoan meds they use for them are very harsh, and in combination with the Baytril are just going to make him more and more sick. See if you can find out what medication he is on, and what the parasite was, and what the count/load of the parasite was...

Also, if they have done 2 separate needle aspirations of the fluid from inside the "bump" on his foot and neither culture has produced any plate growth at all, have they considered the possibility that it is not a bacterial infection at all that is causing the "bump"/swelling? Have they discussed this with you guys? I understand that they the needle aspiration didn't produce much fluid from inside the "bump" to culture, but even so if a bacterial infection is severe enough to cause a fluid collection in his foot for over a month now, they should have seen some bacterial growth on the plate no matter how little fluid they got out of the "bump"...I'm saying this because #1) This swelling or "bump" or growth has been on his foot now for how long, at least a month or more, correct? And they have been treating it blindly with Baytril, and broad-spectrum yet still limited antibiotic since it started, and having him on an antibiotic for this long that is obviously not helping the issue and is only making him feel poorly is counterproductive, and #2) There are scores of other issues that could be causing that "bump" that are not related to a bacterial infection, and since they still have no diagnosis and no reason at all to think that it is a bacterial infection that is causing this, why are they still treating it like it's a bacterial infection?

I guess my question is what is making them STILL THINK the swelling in his foot is being caused by some unknown, mystery bacterial infection? They have gotten no plate growth after 2 separate cultures...Have they done blood work that is indicating a bacterial infection? That would at least justify making the poor little guy take a randomly chosen antibiotic that is making him feel awful. I'm thinking they must have done blood work and I missed where you posted that, that must be the reason that they are still insisting it's a bacterial infection at this point, I mean, how long has it been since this started now? Since his first visit to this vet?

Is there any way you can post new photos of his foot and the "bump"/swelling now? Maybe a photo of his entire foot and then a photo of his other foot for comparison, then a close-up of the "bump"/swelling and what it looks like now? That would be extremely helpful...Also, have you noticed any swelling in any of his other 3 feet, and of his 4 legs or joints in any of his 4 legs, like knees, elbows, shoulders, hips, etc? Any discoloration in any of his feet or legs? Does he flinch, pull his leg away, or show any signs that touching the swollen area causes him pain? Does he limp on that foot, drag that leg or foot, or show any outward signs that he's in any pain from it? And any swelling in any individual toes on any of his 4 feet? Are there any other signs or symptoms of pain or illness that you've observed, besides his lack of appetite, lethargy, and moodiness since he started taking the Baytril and now the antiparasitic med? Those symptoms of lack of appetite, lethargy, crankiness, and any bowel movement issues are all due to the Baytril, the antiparasitic, or both...and please be sure that you are still giving him the probiotic EVERY SINGLE DAY, especially now that he's on a new medication, because if you don't keep replacing the healthy, normal bacteria that naturally live inside his gastrointestinal tract that is all being killed off by the Baytril and possibly the antiparasitic, depending on what it is, he is going to end up developing a Secondary Yeast Infection in his gut...

Also, sorry, one more question...was he having any specific bowel movement problems or symptoms that triggered you to get another fecal test done, or was it just a second follow-up fecal test that happened to come up showing some coccidia or whatever the parasite was? And was this most recent fecal test that came up positive done after he had started taking the Baytril?
 

Poxinabox

Member
Original Poster
A quick couple clarifications:

The first sample was sent off not to produce a culture, but for some kind of in-depth examination (I don't know the terminology). The second fluid sample was the only one to attempt to get a culture going.

I'll see about finding out what parasites and what kind of concern they raised came up, as well as the medication (my wife has the paperwork at the moment).

I'm beginning to come to the same conclusion about the bump. He's had it for probably 3-4 weeks, and we've been treating it for about 1.5 weeks. I can post pictures when I get home from work regarding his legs, both the bumpy one and his "good" leg. He doesn't flinch when pressed, nor is his walking, climbing, or sprinting hindered in any way because of this bump.

His stool sample was only checked once (this most recent time) and was mostly done simply because he'd never had it checked before. He *did* have difficulty passing for approximately one week, but we're already positive it was just because for awhile he only seemed to eat crickets, and even then only preferred to hunt the largest possible ones; his stool was feces was basically a mash of carapaces and bug shells. We forced the issue of only providing smaller crickets (which he did not want to hunt, so they were offered by hand) and introduced small hornworms for their softness into his diet, and he's been back to normal ever since. Or worse, since the expensive hornworms are now his obvious favourite. :p But he's grown since then, and eating the appropriately-sized crickets regularly. Or, rather, he would be, if not for the damned medications killing his interest.

EllenD, you seem very knowledgeable, would you happen to have any specific qualifications? I ask only because I don't want to be "that guy" to go to a professional who spent years in school just to tell them that "I read on the internet that..." but would rather be specific about the information I'm getting, particularly if I'm going to counter the vet's prescribed remedies (which, with your advice, I'm seriously considering doing). Thanks for all your help!
 

Poxinabox

Member
Original Poster
So here are his back legs:

full


The one with the bump on the ankle is this one:

full


Now, it stays the same colour as the rest of him until he has a warm bath, in which it goes a little pink.

No wound marks (except the needle point) were or are visible.

The good leg:

full


Here's a large version to see the bump head-on:

full


As stated, he doesn't appear to have any pain from it. You can poke the bump all you want, and he won't flinch in the slightest. He's still an avid climber and runner with it, and hasn't ever limped. But he's noticeably miserable right now, and I'm positive it's the concoction of drugs he has to take. :(

I want to take him off them, but I don't want to run the risk of the infection if the outcome is as the specialist described. I also don't want to offend the vet as she is literally the ONLY vet that can see him in my area that has any expertise and connections (i.e., to the above-mentioned specialist).
 

Drache613

BD.org Sicko
Staff member
Moderator
Hello,

I am sorry your boy has had to undergo such invasive procedures thus far.
Since he's only 60 grams they haven't done a blood draw, correct? I will go out on a limb & say
that he is developing gout.
I am seeing some swelling on the long toe on the end, just barely visible, along with the bump at the ankle & on the picture it looks like the entire foot is enlarged compared to the other one.
Can you look at that to be sure, sometimes it's hard to tell from a picture.
Has it gotten worse since he was placed on the Baytril? I hate that he was put on the meds
without a firm diagnosis of some type of infection.
Do keep him on probiotics to help his GI tract out.
Can you start him on black cherry juice extract for now, in case it is early gout?

Tracie
 
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