Runny Nose & Not Pooping

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Re: Runny Nose & Not Pooping

Postby Drache613 » Wed Sep 13, 2017 8:47 pm

Hello,

That is great the hot hands worked well then! I bet he loved the soft hand towel burrito wrap
also.
I hope he is feeling better now! Is he doing ok on the Baytril? Yes, it is a good idea to go ahead
& give him a probiotic. The non dairy soy yogurt is good also. You can give just a little dab on
his nose, daily. He should lick it right off, too.
He probably had a bit of B12 in the shot also, to give him some energy. As far as the calcium,
only give a good dusting, daily. Yes, too much is just as bad as not enough. You can keep it to
a 5 times per week, once daily.
The T8 Reptisun 10 tube is fine,m using a reflector behind it. Be sure it's 6 or so inches from
him. The Arcadia D3 12% or 14% T8 bulb is terrific also.
Bless him, I'm happy to hear he is doing so much better after his impaction. I bet he was sure
happy to have some type of food, even if it wasn't much. He should start to get his appetite
back real soon!

Keep us posted on him! :D

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Re: Runny Nose & Not Pooping

Postby EsmeraldasMother » Thu Oct 05, 2017 4:40 am

So, we just about finished the medication and Mycroft wasn't doing any better, so I did some research and found a true reptile vet in the area to take him to. He was still super sluggish/lethargic, and still struggling to put down much food. I took him to the vet yesterday and it turns out that he's got one of the worst cases of parasites that the she (the vet) had ever seen. :( :cry:

We've started anti-parasite medication that he gets every other week, and since he's still got MBD, a weekly shot of calcium to try and get him back on track.

I am honestly upset with myself for not pushing harder on either of the vets before her to do all of the testing possible to help get him better, but she did say that I'm doing everything right.

So, hopefully he'll be better in no time. Since he's receiving so many injections in the next couple of weeks/months, is there anything I need to watch out for?
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Re: Runny Nose & Not Pooping

Postby kingofnobbys » Thu Oct 05, 2017 4:55 am

Hypercalcemia is a risk, keep an eye on the color of his urates, if they take on an orange tinge ==> calcium oxalate crystals are forming in his kidneys because he's ingesting too much calcium.
CBDs: Puff ( RIP 10Dec2015 (3.2 years old (aneurism)) ,Rex (RIP 16Mar2017 at 4.6 yrs old (unexplained death)) , both adopted at 6wks old..Toothless & Peppa : (5 wks old 19dec2015).
Eastern BT Skinks : George & Mildred (born Sept 2010).
Eastern Water Skinks : Lucky (wild juvenile), rescued from a cat.Taken by a SI and far too soon, 9mths with us. RIP 21Jul2010.Wriggles - (rescued injured), small lizard thought she was a big lizard, 7-8 yrs old, died in her sleep, RIP 2Feb2016.)
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Re: Runny Nose & Not Pooping

Postby kingofnobbys » Thu Oct 05, 2017 5:00 am

EsmeraldasMother wrote:So, we just about finished the medication and Mycroft wasn't doing any better, so I did some research and found a true reptile vet in the area to take him to. He was still super sluggish/lethargic, and still struggling to put down much food. I took him to the vet yesterday and it turns out that he's got one of the worst cases of parasites that the she (the vet) had ever seen. :( :cry:

We've started anti-parasite medication that he gets every other week, and since he's still got MBD, a weekly shot of calcium to try and get him back on track.

I am honestly upset with myself for not pushing harder on either of the vets before her to do all of the testing possible to help get him better, but she did say that I'm doing everything right.

So, hopefully he'll be better in no time. Since he's receiving so many injections in the next couple of weeks/months, is there anything I need to watch out for?


Is disturbing that the other vet never picked up on his parasitic infection.
Good idea to keep the viv clean and regularly sterilized.
CBDs: Puff ( RIP 10Dec2015 (3.2 years old (aneurism)) ,Rex (RIP 16Mar2017 at 4.6 yrs old (unexplained death)) , both adopted at 6wks old..Toothless & Peppa : (5 wks old 19dec2015).
Eastern BT Skinks : George & Mildred (born Sept 2010).
Eastern Water Skinks : Lucky (wild juvenile), rescued from a cat.Taken by a SI and far too soon, 9mths with us. RIP 21Jul2010.Wriggles - (rescued injured), small lizard thought she was a big lizard, 7-8 yrs old, died in her sleep, RIP 2Feb2016.)
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Re: Runny Nose & Not Pooping

Postby EsmeraldasMother » Thu Oct 05, 2017 5:19 am

I have to completely agree with you in regards to the disturbing fact that the vets never picked up on his parasite infection. I won't be taking either one of my dragons back to them.

Will the medication help encourage his appetite? Mycroft is barely eating now, as it is. He eats 3-7 dubia roaches for "lunch" but refuses to eat dinner. Part of that may be that he was getting Baytril right before "dinner" time. I know that he got omnivore care (I think that's what she called it) pumped into his stomach yesterday with the anti-parasite medication, since she took note of how skinny he's looking in his limbs. He absolutely refused to eat ANYTHING last night, but he received the medication around mid afternoon so it's entirely possible his belly was still full of medicine, right?

I am hoping that his appetite picks up, since he's not eating enough to have "normal" bowel movements.
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Re: Runny Nose & Not Pooping

Postby AHBD » Thu Oct 05, 2017 5:23 am

Hi there, sorry to hear that your baby is sick. From the beginning it sounds just like he probably just aspirated water and it drained out so he never may have actually had an R.I.

He should only be getting liquid or powdered calcium, not tons of shots. Those are hard on a small dragon. Now that he's been on an antibiotic for a month and just discovered as having parasites his poor body will have a difficult time handling all this medication. It can be very detrimental. What exact parasites does he have, what meds. will he be on ? It's very important to know. It's good that he's eaten a few roaches on his own, but is the vet tube feeding him as well ? Is he on a probiotic ?
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Re: Runny Nose & Not Pooping

Postby EsmeraldasMother » Thu Oct 05, 2017 6:09 am

Hi AHBD.

I completely understand that it's hard on such a small baby but I'm nervous that if we don't continue with the shots, he may not have really any chance of a good life. He's already got small tremors and is having extreme difficulties moving in general.

I'm really regretting taking him to the vet that I did and getting him on the Baytril now, since it didn't seem to change anything and I haven't seen a re occurrence of liquid through his nostrils for a while. The vet did go ahead and listen to his chest and checked him out for the possibility of the R.I. Said there wasn't any sign that he needed any medication for it, so I've stopped, and thrown out, the rest of the Baytril I had.

Since he's getting a shot weekly of calcium, I'm extremely hesitant to continue powdering his feeders.

He's got Giardia and is on Metronidazole. The doctor tube-fed him yesterday while he was getting the medication but didn't mention him being on a probiotic. I was giving him non dairy greek yogurt with the Baytril but stopped. I'm going to call the vet to see if I should be giving him a probiotic.

The vet let me see the slide of what it looked like and holy cheeseballs, it was BAD. :cry:
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Re: Runny Nose & Not Pooping

Postby AHBD » Thu Oct 05, 2017 6:43 am

Poor little guy, no wonder he feels sick. Well, he;'s on the proper meds. but yes, keep up the probiotic. Also I would discontinue the calcium shots + offer the liquid calcium in with his food or powdered . Is he being tube fed all his meals or does he eat by syringe at home ?
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Re: Runny Nose & Not Pooping

Postby EsmeraldasMother » Thu Oct 05, 2017 7:01 am

Okay, thanks!

He's been eating dubias at home, so neither. If I hold him over the bowl, he's very interested and he'll eat them. Would you recommend me feeding him by syringe instead? What would I feed him via syringe? I know slurries help with passing stool, but a good nutritional slurry I've never heard of.

Also, since he's got Giardia, do I need to be taking extreme precautions with him? EX: Latex gloves, dressing gowns, etc. I know that Giardia can infect humans through contaminated food/water but if I'm just handling him normally, I'm not sure it can infect me via touch.
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Re: Runny Nose & Not Pooping

Postby AHBD » Thu Oct 05, 2017 7:10 am

Oh, well that's fantastic if he's eating dubias ! Just use the powder on the bugs then. :) BTW, I saw that your cool side is in the 90's....that's way too hot, keep it around 82-84 at the most. Offer water via syringe to keep him hydrated. A little slurry or C.C once a week would be fine too, but by all means let him eat the right size bugs.

And hand washing is your first line of defence. Plus don't bathe him in your sinks, if you must do so [ if he's dirty ] use a little plastic container that can be sanitized afterwards.
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Re: Runny Nose & Not Pooping

Postby EsmeraldasMother » Thu Oct 05, 2017 7:24 am

Awesome! I'll definitely continue powdering his food. We upgraded his lighting set up a couple weeks ago and it's dropped it down to between 80-85.

He absolutely REFUSES to take water, unless I open his mouth and put it in. Even then, I have to pry open his mouth fully to get him to take water and he fights me. Do you have a recommendation for convincing him to take water? I've done the dripping on the nose, the bath, and everything I can think of but he's holding strong. Just the normal C.C. is good for beardies? Since he's not eating much, I want to make sure I'm getting as much nutrients into him as possible to help him get better.

I'm crazy about washing my hands after dealing with him, and have since the beginning. I just didn't know since he's so ill, if it was a necessary precaution. I've dealt with animals that gowns, gloves and masks were mandatory to prevent getting sick.

About the sinks, I only bath him in a plastic tub that sits on the bathroom counter. He's not a huge fan of the sink, and I feel that he's too small for the bathtub right now. It gets sanitized after every bath, since it also functions as his carrier for the vet. (I have a wonderfully fluffy towel and hot hands ((hot hands UNDER the towel) I put down for him when traveling).
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Re: Runny Nose & Not Pooping

Postby AHBD » Thu Oct 05, 2017 8:21 am

Stubborn little bugga, but some don't drink often after the hatchling stage, esp. if the breeder or store wasn't offering water. Don't force it, just continue trying every other day. Drip, stop, repeat. Sometimes it takes a good 30 seconds or so before they start drinking. And if you've been giving him the C.C mixed with water, that is hydrating him too.

You can also try mixing a tiny bit of natural grape ,apple or strawberry juice [ with no sugar ] with the water.
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Re: Runny Nose & Not Pooping

Postby EsmeraldasMother » Thu Oct 05, 2017 11:21 am

Mycroft has to be the most stubborn bearded dragon I've ever met!! That being said, I love my "little man" dearly, even if he makes me want to scream sometimes with his stubbornness. <3

His living conditions at the store I rescued him from were not ideal to say the least, and I don't believe he received water at all whilst he was there.

I'm going to try mixing juice in with the water to try and encourage him to drink. He used to respond to the drip, stop, repeat method but anymore, he's just been sitting there and ignoring it. How anyone can ignore water dripping on their nose is beyond me but he seems to do it perfectly fine.

How long should I wait before I stop doing the drip, stop, repeat method? I've done it for 5-10+ minutes and he just ignores me.
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Re: Runny Nose & Not Pooping

Postby AHBD » Thu Oct 05, 2017 11:52 am

Just try a tiny bit of juice in it, other than that if he's eating the critical care mixture he's getting hydrated. If he doesn't want to drink it's fine but just offer it every few days. If he doesn't go for it after a minute then don't worry.
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Re: Runny Nose & Not Pooping

Postby EllenD » Fri Oct 06, 2017 10:24 am

I'm sorry your little guy is so sick, Giardia is a nasty little bug that makes you feel horrible, but luckily it is easily treated with the correct medication, which he's on, and hopefully he'll start to feel better soon, if for no other reason than the Giardia count is being pushed out of his intestines by the meds.I hope you have completely disinfected his entire enclosure, inside and out, everything in his enclosure, including his light fixtures, and put down paper towels as his substrate that are replaced at least once daily. The medication doesn't actually kill the Giardia, but rather speeds up the time it takes to be eradicated from his gastrointestinal tract, as people and animals that contract Giardia and get no treatment at all will most likely survive and be rid of the Giardia eventually, but without the medication it takes between 2-3 months for the Giardia to naturally be flushed out of the intestinal tract. People and animals who have been known to have "died from Giardia" did not die from Giardia, they died from usually dehydration, sometimes a combination of dehydration and malnutrition, as Giardia causes the structures on the inside lining of the small intestines that are responsible for the absorption of nutrition to basically shrink or shrivel up, therefore the person or animal doesn't absorb much nutrition from the small amount of food they are able to force themselves to eat...so the medication he's on both speeds up the process of flushing the Giardia out of his body and also should make the side effects of the Giardia a bit less harsh, like the diarrhea, any vomiting or bloating, etc. But the med is also harsh itself.

Luckily Giardia dies very quickly with either antibacterial soaps or just the alcohol-based hand cleaners, I worked with Giardia quite a bit when I worked at the Animal Diagnostics Lab at Penn State, they had labs set up to do research and mass testing, each lab and staff was educated and trained in one specific microbe so they were specialists on that particular bug, they had an entirely separate Avian Influenza testing and research lab, then a few smaller labs that both researched and tested local area farmer's herds/flocks for them...I specialized in Giardiasis and PRRS, a disease caused by a virus that effects the reproductive and respiratory systems in young pigs. Anyway, Giardiasis has a very high recovery rate so no worries there, but I suspect the medication he's on is causing his lack of appetite just as much as the actual Giardia is, it's a very, very effective medication and definitely the right one for a bearded dragon with Giardia, but it's also a pretty nasty drug.

Are you still giving him probiotics? If not, you absolutely need to. Giardia causes extreme stomach pain, cramping, bloating from excess gas, and definitely does not in any way make for a good appetite, lol. If you give him a good probiotic every single day, this should increase his appetite a little more each day. And I'm going to look this up very quickly and confirm it for you after I post this response, but I'm 99% sure that the medication he's on will not be effected negatively by probiotics the way that most antibiotics are, meaning that you can actually give him the probiotic BEFORE you offer him food, and if you do this pre-meal probiotic dose in the form of non-dairy soy yogurt, it will coat his upset stomach and should settle it so that when you offer him food and water he should be a lot more willing to eat some of it, it may even cause him to feel a little hungry. I tend to buy Silk brand non-dairy Soy Yogurt when my guys are on medications and it works very well. Any Walmart and most grocery stores sell the Silk brand Soy Yogurt in the regular yogurt section, and my guys seem to like the fruit flavors, like Strawberry, Raspberry, Blueberry, etc. You can offer him the non-dairy Soy Yogurt first thing in the morning but after his lights have been on for at least an hour or two. I typically just open up the container of Soy Yogurt, mix it up really well to kind of thin it up a bit, and then it should be thin enough to be sucked-up in an oral syringe or eyedropper (I tend to use an eyedropper for this because I'm not putting it inside their mouths, just dripping it on their nose so it runs over their lips). Typically they really do like the fruity Soy Yogurt, hopefully he'll like it, and you should give him as much as he'll eat (realistically he's not going to eat a bunch of it, but even a small amount will coat his stomach, help to neutralize the stomach acid, will boost his blood sugar, which is bound to be low, and hopefully make him hungry for his regular food). Then wait like 10 to 15 minutes after he eats the Soy Yogurt to see how he reacts to it, hopefully that will perk him up a bit, and then offer him his live bugs, greens, veggies, etc. ABSOLUTELY BE SURE THAT ANY SOY YOGURT YOU GIVE HIM IS NON-DAIRY, AS LACTOSE INTAKE IS A VERY, VERY, VERY BAD THING WHEN YOU HAVE GIARDIA...it's not pretty at all... :puke:

Because Giardia typically does cause dehydration in most cases, and it is particularly dehydrating to bearded dragons because they get most all of their hydration from their live bugs and greens and don't actually drink water out of a bowl or bath, I would also pick up 2 more items to try to keep him hydrated with in addition to the non-dairy Soy Yogurt: #1) Some Pedialyte or the generic, store-brand version of Pedialyte, and #2) Some beardie-safe fruit.

Pedialyte is sugar-free, and will provide both fluids and much-needed electrolytes to your beardie while he's suffering from both the Giardia and the side-effects of the medication. Even if you only get him to drink/lick off a very small amount of the Pedialyte, a very small amount of Pedialyte is a lot more hydrating than a very small amount of water, so this is a no-brainer. You can offer it to him the same way you have been offering the water or fruit juice, by using an eyedropper to drip it down over his lips and seeing if he'll lick it off, or you can try get just a little bit in his mouth by using an oral syringe (NEVER DO THIS WITH A GLASS EYEDROPPER BECAUSE THEY CAN CHOMP DOWN ON IT). This method is actually quite easy and not stressful to him at all, unlike some of the other force-feeding methods, like using a piece of cardboard, etc. All I do is put a very small amount of the Pedialyte or slurry or whatever it is that I'm giving them in a plastic syringe (either an oral syringe, or better yet I go to Tractor Supply and buy a box of 6 disposable, plastic syringes, the LEUR-SLIP type with the longer tip, not the leur-lock type, and usually get either the 1ml or the 3ml ones, 3ml is better). A box of 6 disposable, plastic, 3ml Leur-Slip syringes (no needles obviously) at Tractor Supply costs like $1, lol. Suck-up only a small amount of the Pedialyte into the 3ml syringe, like 0.5ml of pedialyte, because you can safely push this tiny amount into his mouth without causing stress or without him choking on it. All you do is put 0.5ml of the Pedialyte in the plastic syringe, then using the tip on the end of the syringe, push up his upper lip on the side of his mouth, back near his ear, at the very end of his mouth. Have your thumb on the plunger and be ready to slowly push the Pedialyte into his mouth...once you have the tip of the syringe under his upper lip on the side of his mouth/face, gently just slide the tip of the syringe up his mouth, keeping it under his upper lip the entire time, towards the front of his mouth in the middle of his face. For whatever reason, when the tip of the syringe reaches the middle of his mouth under the tip of his snout, he will pretty much automatically open his mouth up wide. They all do it, I don't know why but in my experience they all do. Since the tip of the syringe was already under his upper lip and stayed there the entire time as you slid the tip up to the middle of his mouth, all you have to do when he opens his mouth is slowly but steadily and firmly push the plunger, the tip of the syringe will already be inside his mouth when he opens it. You're pushing such a small amount of Pedialyte that he'll hardly notice that he's drinking anything, but you'll see him lick a bit, then close his mouth again. Once you do this a few times it's very, very easy and will go so smoothly from this point on, so if you every need to force fluids or even slurries or Critical Care again in the future, it will be simple, quick, and stress-free for both of you. Force-feeding can be so stressful on both the beardie and the person doing it that it backfires, which is why I don't use the other methods, like prying their mouths open with the tip of the syringe, or inserting a piece of flat cardboard between their lips and teeth until they open up, these methods may work for some, but once you do this a couple of times you'll realize what I mean when I say it's simple, quick, and not at all stressful. You'll need to do this a few times since you're only giving him 0.5ml of Pedialyte or whatever at a time, but this is both the safe way to do it, and the easy way, as you're giving them so little that they hardly know they're eating or drinking anything. I'd try to get 2-3ml of the Pedialyte in him at a time, and I'd do this twice a day until he starts eating normally again. The extra electrolytes provided to him by giving him 4-6ml of Pedialyte a day will help him recover much more quickly and make the illness and the medications much easier on his kidneys. If you can comfortably get him to take more of the Pedialyte throughout the day then by all means do so, but I always try to give no more than 2-3ml in one sitting, again 0.5ml at a time, because this is so much less stressful than trying to give him larger amounts at one time. So if you give him 2-3ml of Pedialyte in the morning after his lights have been on for at least an hour or so (you can also give him the Soy Yogurt this way, and actually at the same time by thinning the Soy Yogurt with the Pedialyte, so you only have to do this to him once), then give him another 2-3ml around lunch, another 2-3ml at dinner, and a last 2-3ml before bedtime (try to leave his lights on for an hour after giving him the last serving of Pedialyte, water, food, etc. so he digests it), he'll get a good amount of fluids, electrolytes, and the Soy Yogurt containing the probiotics, and he'll get them all in very small amounts over time which is not only quicker but also much less stressful. You can try a fruit-flavored Pedialyte, sometimes they actually really like it, just like they like regular fruit juice, or you can just use the unflavored Pedialyte, doesn't matter.

The second thing I suggest is buying some fresh fruit and offering it to him along with his fresh greens. I know that younger beardies don't typically eat a lot, if any greens and veggies. Some love them and they have lucky owners, but most won't touch them, which is a bummer when they're sick because of all the hydration they would get from greens and veggies. However, they usually all like at least one or two types of fruit, and fruit contains more hydration than greens, veggies, and even the live bugs. The only issue with feeding them a lot of fruit is that it also contains a lot of natural sugar (fructose). That being said, since your poor little guy isn't eating a whole lot of anything and is also in danger of becoming very dehydrated, there is no danger in giving him a little fruit each day until he starts eating regularly. He will feel quite a bit better after eating some fruit each day, not only because it's very hydrating, but also because he could use the extra sugar. You can give him many different types of fruits, but never ever give him ANY Citrus fruits. Other than not giving him any citrus fruits, they pretty much seem to love fresh Strawberries, Raspberries, Blueberries, Apple Slices/Cubes, Blackberries, Grapes (SEEDLESS), Cherries (SEEDLESS/PITLESS), Mango, and any types of Melon like Cantaloupe, Honeydew, etc., and my little 5 month old Dee Dee goes absolutely insane for Banana!!!! He loves bananas more than any live insect, any day of the week. I have no idea why, my 2 other guys won't touch banana, but Dee Dee would eat an entire, full-size banana if I let him, lol. Every beardie is different in their tastes, just like people are, so I always buy little variety fruit cups at the grocery store that have cubes of all different types of fresh fruit and usually some grapes, and I cut them up into tiny little pieces and let them all try them all, and look to see who ate the most of what. Of course they all like something different, lol. But actually I forgot to mention that, that cutting up both greens/veggies and fruits up into different sized pieces can also help them eat more, because some of them like them cut up into tiny little pieces, and others like them a little bigger. So you can try it all different ways and see what trips his trigger.

By the way, I just googled the medication he's on, and probiotics will not interfere with it at all, so you do not have to wait a certain time period before giving it to him. So if he's taking the medication orally (I don't remember if you said orally or by injections) I would make sure his lights are on for at least an hour in the morning, then give him the non-dairy Soy Yogurt to coat his stomach, wait like 10-15 minutes for the yogurt/probiotics to settle, and then give him his dose of medication. That will make it so much easier on his poor little tummy...

I've rambled enough now, sorry, I just know a lot about Giardia and how to combat it, and I have been following your story since you first posted it and he's been struggling so, I want to help in any way I possibly can. Plus I know how Giardia tends to cause very horrible dehydration and malnutrition/weight loss in both people and animals/reptiles, and how important hydration and nutrition are to getting over Giardia, because technically the medications available do not "cure" or kill the Giardia, they just speed up the process of flushing it out of the body.
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