Inbred dragon?

To keep this easy to read, point form....

-bought 2 dragons online
-at least one of them was fully invested with parasites and then spread them to the other
-fecal has come back good now (aside from coxidia which the vet says is normal for a beardie) but he's still just... Odd
-when he tries to eat, it takes him 3-5 tries because his depth perception/Hunting skills (even with non moving veggies) are terrible!
-we've been to the vet several times, antibiotics and parasite treatment and he's still all weird.

At this point, I'm not convinced that there is anything to be done to fix him... I'm just curious if anybody else has experienced this. Is he re traded (won't let me type that word)? Inbred to the point of stupidity? Any other theories?

Side note... He now has an appetite again (post parasites), and my has a drive to breed (I really think that breeding him would be a bad idea though), so he's at least semi normal.

Thanks!

Hi. Can you give a run down of the set up? Also if they are housed together they need to be separated.

They are not housed together... Put them down in too close proximity one day and he tried to breed her. He can see her through the glass and tries to get to her.

The set up is good. Nice and warm(high 80's on the warm side out of the basking area) , good uv (t5ho 10.0) etc.

Also should mention... He sleeps a lot. WAY more than my female. She is 7 months or so, he is 18 months (a guess).

Nobody has any thoughts??

It is extremely helpful if you post photos of him (whole body), and of his complete enclosure and lighting setup. Then please give us details of what brand, model, and type/shape (compact, coil, or tube) of UVB light you have, and the same for his basking light.

-What is the distance in inches the UVB light is from his main basking spot? Is there any clear plastic cover on the UVB fixture over the bulb? Is it mounted inside his enclosure or on a mesh or glass lid?
-What color is his basking light? Does he have any colored lights at all? Any nighttime heat source, and if so, what is his nighttime temperature?
-What are the exact temperatures of his main basking spot, his Hot Side ambient temperature (side with the basking spot and surrounding his basking spot), and his Cool Side? WHAT TYPE OF THERMOMETER ARE YOU USING? I couldn't tell if you meant you have a digital thermometer with a probe on a wire, or a round, stick-on gauge thermometer...You cannot measure his basking spot without a probe or a gun, it's impossible with those stick-on thermometers, and more importantly they are junk, they are usually off by 15-20 degrees, so you need a digital probe thermometer that has a probe you can actually place on his main basking spot, as this determines his ability to digest food.
-What is his daily diet? What live feeder insects, how many per feeding session, and how many feeding sessions per day? -------What greens and veggies and how often? Any other food offered and how often? (Commercial beardie pellets, freeze-dried insects or veggies, etc.)
-What Calcium supplement do you use, and how often? What multivitamin do you use, and how often?

If you can post the photos and answer these questions in as much detail as possible, we can help you figure out what's going on with him. It sounds to me like he's either suffering from a nutritional deficiency of some kind (which could be diet related OR UVB light or Temperature related), or possibly an eye issue, which could also be lighting related...Other issues could also be going on, but we can't begin to guess until we know the whole picture. Often people come on with a problem and they say that their lighting, temperatures, diet, etc. are "fine", "good", or even "perfect", and after they actually post photos and list details they have major problems that they weren't aware of. Pet shop employees and even breeders (even very reputable, established breeders ) give horrible advice and bad recommendations, and people don't know they are doing anything wrong... We'll be able to spot your problems pretty quickly if you provide us the necessary information.

Thanks for the reply... I'll try to answer everything. If you even my memory on how to post pics, I'll get you pics of him and the enclosures.

Now... I would like to mention 3 things.
1. He came to me like this. If you're right and it is nutrition, uvb, or temp it was likely from the dirt bag (feel free to read my previous posts) who sold them to me.
2. Our female is in the same set up. Minor differences, but virtually identical. She is doing great.
3. I ran their set ups past the vet (herp specialized) and she saw no issues.

Ok... So they're shared custody dragons. They follow my daughter to her moms when I'm out of town. We camp a lot and they come with us. The set ups at my house and my ex's are mostly the same. 36x18x18 enclosures. Reptisun10.0 t5ho with no plastic shield or mesh lid. They have a basking side with various types of basking bulbs. (they keep burning out on me). The dragon in question currently has 2x100W hardware store heat bulbs. One is blue, one is red. This is a new development... They have had regular colour day bulbs for most of the time. Ambient temp in the hot side runs about 85. When they bask (10-12 inches away from the t5ho) they are good and warm to the touch. I planned to buy a temp gun, but got distracted. I'm using the stick on variety. It matches up to ambient in my house. Cool side of the cage runs about 75. Night time the whole enclosure is about 70 with no night time heat source.
While camping, they each have their own 3x3x3 mesh cage with natural sunlight to bask in. Ceramic heat to supplement when it's cooler.
Feeding has been all around due to the parasites. Now that he's feeling better, he gets as many bugs (left in a dish all day) as he wants. They are dusted with repcal most days. He'll usually eat about 10 supper worms a day. More smaller bugs obviously. Staple is super worms and king worms, but they get wax worms, horn worms, silks, meal, butter, and Phoenix whenever possible. Worms are gut loaded and dusted. Crickets are fed once a week...because i hate them. Veggies are mostly garden fresh dragon safe. I bought a variety of 8or 10 dragon safe seeds to grow. They get a good variety of veggies with reptivite on most veggie feedings. Other times we grab organic veg from the local stores.

Also... Can a video be posted on here? If so, I could take one of him hunting. It's comical and sad all at the same time. It gets more sad and less funny as time goes on though.

Side note... He looks like a healthy adult dragon. He was sold to me as a 5month old in may, but he is definitely an adult.

Thanks for any help offered.

You can upload images here https://www.beardeddragon.org/useruploads/ and post them to your thread using the XIMG button when you reply.

You can't upload videos directly but you can use a separate service like Vimeo or Youtube and then post a link to the video here using the URL button.

Well if he was actually an adult when you got him (a year or older) then his issues most likely do stem from his prior owner, as their first year of life is when getting them proper UVB, temps, and diet is most important, as that's when they do the most growing. So he probably does have MBD and mobility issues stemming from it.

Your UVB and distance is good, but I gotta say that not having a proper digital thermometer and not knowing his basking spot temperature (the most important temp) is a major problem with digestion and absorption of nutrients, including Calcium. But you have 2 100 watt basking bulbs over his basking spot? I have 2 separate enclosures that are 4'x3'x2', and I have one 125 watt basking bulb in each alongside the same 24" Reptisun 10.0 T5 High-Output UVB tube at a distance of 11" away from their basking spots, and that one 125 watt bulb keeps their basking temp right around 100-103, which is ideal. You said that he's been mouth gaping, so my guess is that you're possibly cooking him. Too hot is just as bad as too cold. You absolutely need to get a digital probe thermometer for $10 at Petco or PetSmart, put the probe on their main basking spots, wait 20-30 minutes, and read it. Those 2 100 watt basking bulbs are too much heat and light for that size of tank.

Also, he's most likely having vision/eye issues either from the 2 100 watt basking bulbs producing too much light and heat, or the blue and red bulbs, which I'm confused about, because I hope you don't have those 2 colored basking bulbs on top of the other 2 100 watt bulbs....It's actually really dangerous to have that much heat without having a proper thermometer. That high 80's you're measuring as his ambient Hot Side temperature may very well actually be over 110 degrees, those round stick-on thermometers are usually off by 20 degrees or more, no joke. So you're using at least 2 100 watt basking bulbs, possibly a red and a blue as well...

You need to ditch both the red and the blue bulbs first, they always cause vision issues. Beardies see in cir just like us, and you're entire goal as far as his lighting goes is to duplicate natural sunlight as closely as you can. You've got the correct UVB part, but you're UVA and your color is causing the issues. They should only have bright white basking bulbs, that's it. No blue, red, green, yellow, INFRARED, "moonlight", no colors at all. Based on the size of his enclosure, you should only need your 10.0 T5 UVB tube and a single, white, halogen indoor flood bulb of maybe 100 watts. That's it. No other lighting. That will not only allow his eyes to heal and his vision to improve, but it should put his Temperature gradient within all the correct ranges, and his main basking spot temperature around 100-103. Seriously, get rid of the blue and red bulbs, they're hurting his eyes, and get yourself a digital probe thermometer and properly take all 3 temps. My guess is that you using 2 100 watt basking bulbs is causing his temps to be too hot.

Not sure where you got the mouth gaping from. I didn't say that. He does on occasion in the full sun on a hot day... But then he ducks in to the shade.

I don't disagree about the blue/red bulb, BUT they've only been in there for a little over a week. This problem did not come about a week ago. If I could find a regular white bulb that would last for more than 2 weeks, I wouldn't be using these right now. As they are blue and red, not much light comes off of them. I have noticed no change in him since changing bulbs.

doch":1uo3ttdl said:

Also should mention... He sleeps a lot. WAY more than my female. She is 7 months or so, he is 18 months (a guess).

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My observation of beardies as they matured from very young hatchlings --> juveniles --> subadults --> adults is they became more lazy as they matured (ie more laid back and relaxed).

I would expect a 7 month old juvenile , to be more "wired" / highly sprung / energetic than an 18 months old who is a subadult .

Of cause there are also differences due to their personalities, some are much more into everything and more inclined to dash about exploring everything than others of the same age, of cause hormonal changes can mix things up to , as do weather changes and seasonal changes.

Feeding / catching insects , some like human hunters and fishermen, are better at it than others, and it is well known that although bearded dragons have excellent eyesight and great colorvision , they do have problems with depth perception when surfaces (like walls / doors) are close and often bump into these , and if you watch closely , when they are going to nail a insect like a roach or cricket , they close their eyes for bite (this is to protect their eyes incase the insect bites back or jumps).

From I can see , there is nothing out of the ordinary here.

I can't see how any of this has anything to do with inbreeding, which is common in the hobby with inexperienced and with unscrupulous breeders (who don't give any thoughts to the genetic consequences of this for the offspring from these matings) . The problem of inbreeding in the herp industry (outside Australia) will remain an issue because the genetic pool is very restricted and few records are kept by breeders and only illegally trafficked and illegally wild caught specimens with unsullied genetics are arriving from Australia, this wont change (it is strictly illegal to take reptiles form the wild in Australia and exports of native fauna from Australia is not permitted).

doch":3dznckm9 said:

Not sure where you got the mouth gaping from. I didn't say that. He does on occasion in the full sun on a hot day... But then he ducks in to the shade.

I don't disagree about the blue/red bulb, BUT they've only been in there for a little over a week. This problem did not come about a week ago. If I could find a regular white bulb that would last for more than 2 weeks, I wouldn't be using these right now. As they are blue and red, not much light comes off of them. I have noticed no change in him since changing bulbs.

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Need to get rid of the coloured globes, these WILL have an impact in their feeding as it makes everything look a different colour from what it should be , this will make it more difficult for the dragons to identify their food.
The strain coloured glow will also cause them to think it's bed time too , so having an impact on their levels of activity.
Forget about reptile brand basking globes, over priced , over rated and poor longevity , better basking globes are domestic indoor/outdoor par38 incandescent or halogen colourless spot globes (with builtin reflectors) , these give good colourless or sunlike light, and plenty of heat.
The other option is a good Arcadia or Zoo Med or Exo Terra brand MVB (these give heat, colourless light , UVA & UVB).

Worth while your working methodically through my cheatsheet too : viewtopic.php?f=6&t=234738&p=1806050#p1806050

As I already said, all you need is a regular, household halogen indoor flood lamp, 109 watts max, maybe 75 watts, the kind you buy in a hardware store. That's it. They last for quite a long time. The only "reptile" specialty bulbs I've ever used were ZooMed Intense Basking Spot, which were okay, but no different at all than a regular $5 halogen indoor flood bulb.

My concern about your temps is not irrational or unfounded, as you have NO PROPER THERMOMETER, thus no way to test his basking spot temperature, and you're using multiple bulbs in a smaller enclosure than I and many others use, and I and other use only a UVB light and a single halogen indoor flood bulb and our TOS are perfect. So I'm trying to get you to realize that you've got a lot of heat and no way to monitor it, which can and will cause issues in the future if not already, as will the colored bulbs...If you "agree with me about the blue and red bulbs" then please, run to your closest hardware store or department store and buy a halogen indoor flood bulb, and then get them out of there because they mess with their eyes and cause issues with them seeing and identifying their food.

As I said, your main goal with her lighting is to duplicate natural sunlight as closely as possible...There are no blue, red, green, yellow, etc. seen in natural sunlight. It always causes issues, and I just don't want you to develop additional issues from something you knew about and was so easily preventable. As you stated, "they've only been in there a little over a week", so that's good, get them out of there and buy a proper digital probe thermometer immediately. Don't let those colored bulbs in there or mess around with multiple basking lamps at one time without a thermometer long enough for a visible problem to occur. A little over a week is long enough, please don't deliberately "wait and see". We're trying to help your beardie and telling you to make these changes because we really do care.

Thanks for your help everybody.

EllenD, I feel like you're misinterpreting what I'm saying. I have heard your advice, I've accepted it and I will make those changes once we're back home. They are currently nice and happy in the natural sunlight at the campground.

I am however simply saying that the problems that I'm asking about were present before the colored bulbs. As for my lack of proper thermometer... I have checked mine compared to ambient and it seems to be accurate. It's definitely not out by 15-20 degrees. As mentioned, I have every intention of ordering an IR gun... I just got distracted. I can feel his temp (with 2 basking bulbs) compared to hers (with one) and they feel the same. This is due to the position of the reflectors being different in both cages. I will be extremely surprised if the basking temp is off... But I will keep you posted.

So, if we could, please think of other theories to help him... Or at least diagnose. As mentioned before... Given what we've been through (several vet visits, etc), I'm not sure that he can be helped. I am however very curious as to the root cause. MBD? Handicapped somehow?

Thanks again