Spreading growths on dragon.

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Cloudkyt

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It started with the growth on his leg a few months ago. I didn't notice it until February, and then I scheduled an appointment at a vet. He did a scraping, sent it to the lab, and gave me antibiotics (which I used). The growth didn't get better and was spreading fast. The red spots on his leg are fairly new, but it's progressing very fast. He's also got two new brown spots on his beard which are concerning. However, the spots themselves don't seem to inhibit his movement or his quality of life. He basks happily, and eats his food when it's given to him. He loves running about and is he KNOWS when someone walks past his cage - tl;dr: he's alert. The basking area tops 113 F and the cool area is 78 F.
 

Cloudkyt

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Original Poster
I've taken him to 2 different vets and his growths have only spread more and have gotten worse. I'm at a loss. Has anyone seen these growths before? Or can someone tell me of a GOOD vet in Miami, FL whose prices are reasonable?
 

AHBD

BD.org Sicko
Hi Cloudy, I can see a dark color under his leg but it's really hard to make out what it is . Can you hold him in the air with his legs dangling and get a direct shot of it ? I don't see anything on his beard at all, maybe it's just the angle ?
 

AHBD

BD.org Sicko
That is odd....I would lean towards a fungal infection [ which antibiotics won't help ] but it looks different than most that I've seen. Can you find a new vet that has more experience with beardies ? Or can you ask this vet to do a skin scraping to check for yellow fungus disease ? For now you can apply a watered down betadine solution to it a couple times a day, but it does need to be cultured to figure out what it is.
 

Drache613

BD.org Sicko
Staff member
Moderator
Hello,

I agree, it is most likely a fungal issue but not sure if it's black fungus or yellow fungus. As suggested, a skin scraping for a culture test would reveal which one it is.
For now, keep the skin clean with a diluted betadine solution & if you can find some anti-fungal cream try getting those areas covered with it. You could even try some raw, unpasteurized honey on them, also.
If you have some probiotics like non dairy soy yogurt or non dairy acidophiliz you can give those daily to help balance out his system.
There is a Dr. Marc Kramer who is an exotic vet out of Miami that we have seen. We haven't seen him for awhile though, but I am not sure he is still doing just exotic practice. It looks like he is doing more surgery, etc. Here is a link where he is at so if he only does surgery etc, maybe he can give a reference.

http://www.projectpetsnip.com/meetourstaff


Tracie
 

EllenD

Gray-bearded Member
You said that the first vet did a skin scraping...What was the result? Did he tell you why he was prescribing an antibiotic? What antibiotic(s) was he given, and how long was he on them? Did either of the vets you have seen suggest it may be a fungal infection? Viral? I'm confused as to why the first vet actually did a skin scraping, which is the first test that should have been run, and then put him on an antibiotic without explaining why. Obviously an antibiotic would only treat a bacterial infection, not a fungal infection, viral infection, parasite, etc. Any vet would know this, so I'm wondering if he found bacteria in the skin scraping and if so, what bacteria it was. If he wasn't a certified Reptile vet with bearded dragon experience, it's possible that he saw normal bacteria that all bearded dragons carry on their skin and prescribed a broad-spectrum antibiotic to try to kill it, which would not only not help the lesions but may also kill off normal, good bacteria and upset his system.

I think the first thing you need to do is find a Board-Certified Reptile Vet with a lot of bearded dragon experience, there has to be at least one really good certified Reptile vet in the greater Miami/Fort Lauderdale area. I'd do a search online for a very good reptile vet, look at credentials and ratings, and then call and ask questions about their bearded dragon experience. And make sure to tell them that this has been progressively getting worse over weeks and months, that he's seen 2 other vets, been given antibiotics, and it's getting worse and worse. They hopefully will get him in quickly that way. And if you never got the results of the skin scraping that the first vet did you need to call them ASAP, get a copy of the test results, and ask specifically why he was put on the antibiotic he was given. Don't ever be afraid to ask questions, and ALWAYS get a copy of all test results, his complete chart with notes on his diagnosis, etc.

In the meantime you need to completely sanitize his enclosure and everything in it. Throw out all rocks, wood, etc. that is porous. You need to order or find some F10 (bleach will work in the meantime) to disinfect his enclosure, both inside and out. Use only disposable substrates from now on like paper towels, and change them often. You need to soak his enclosure in a mixture of the F10 or bleach and hot water, rinse well, then dry well. Even the stand his enclosure is on. And keep all other animals away.

As for him, no more baths, if it is a fungal infection then dampness will spread it. What you can try while waiting to get into the certified Reptile vet is buying either Betadine (iodine) or Hibiclens at Walmart, along with a few gallons of sterile water. Mix the Betadine or Hibiclens with the sterile water, like 1 part antiseptic to 2-3 parts water, then heat it until warm but not hot (don't want to burn him). If using Betadine the solution will look like a weak iced tea, the Hibiclens is pink, so the solution will be very faintly pink with some soap bubbles. Both are great antiseptics that are used in the scrub packs in hospital operating rooms and they kill everything. Soak him in this warmed solution for 15-20 minutes twice a day, then dry him really well. Then also buy a topical antifungal medication at Walmart (or any drug store, I find Walmart cheaper), I'd start with Lotrimin or the generic Walmart or store brand of Lotrimin. It's a pretty broad-spectrum antifungal cream. Apply it sparingly to each lesion, just enough to cover each lesion and rub it in as well as you can. I'd do the antiseptic soaks and apply the topical antifungal cream twice a day. Other than these treatments keep both your bearded dragon and his enclosure completely dry at all times. Clean and dry is going to be very important for both him and his enclosure and anything he touches. Also keeping his basking temperature high enough but still having a temperature gradient from a cool side between 75-80 degrees so he can get out of the heat is important.

Keep in mind that the soaks in the antiseptic and the topical antifungal cream are only meant to try and slow the progression of the fungal infection, but only If it's a fungal infection! The Betadine or Hibiclens soaks will kill both bacteria and fungi, but they won't "cure" him, only slow the external, topical infection if it's bacterial or fungal. If it's a viral infection that he has then none of this will do much of anything except keeping the external lesions from developing infections secondary to the actual disease that's causing them. The only way you're going to cure this is to take him to a certified Reptile vet ASAP, get the cause of the lesions diagnosed, and treat the Infection with aggressive medications. I'm hoping it's not Yellow Fungus, it doesn't present like Yellow Fungus in the typical fashion, but that really doesn't mean anything. What most people don't understand about fungal infections is that they are growing both internally and externally, but all we can see are the external representations of the infection. So a lot of people will try to get away with treating Yellow Fungus with only topical creams, while the fungal infection is raging internally. So it's vital that you get him to a certified Reptile vet who will run the appropriate tests to diagnose and then treat him.
 

Drache613

BD.org Sicko
Staff member
Moderator
Hello,

Let us know how your dragon is doing & if you were able to find another vet.


Tracie
 

Cloudkyt

Member
Original Poster
EllenD":2lv2cvwe said:
You said that the first vet did a skin scraping...What was the result? Did he tell you why he was prescribing an antibiotic? What antibiotic(s) was he given, and how long was he on them? Did either of the vets you have seen suggest it may be a fungal infection? Viral? I'm confused as to why the first vet actually did a skin scraping, which is the first test that should have been run, and then put him on an antibiotic without explaining why. Obviously an antibiotic would only treat a bacterial infection, not a fungal infection, viral infection, parasite, etc. Any vet would know this, so I'm wondering if he found bacteria in the skin scraping and if so, what bacteria it was. If he wasn't a certified Reptile vet with bearded dragon experience, it's possible that he saw normal bacteria that all bearded dragons carry on their skin and prescribed a broad-spectrum antibiotic to try to kill it, which would not only not help the lesions but may also kill off normal, good bacteria and upset his system.

I think the first thing you need to do is find a Board-Certified Reptile Vet with a lot of bearded dragon experience, there has to be at least one really good certified Reptile vet in the greater Miami/Fort Lauderdale area. I'd do a search online for a very good reptile vet, look at credentials and ratings, and then call and ask questions about their bearded dragon experience. And make sure to tell them that this has been progressively getting worse over weeks and months, that he's seen 2 other vets, been given antibiotics, and it's getting worse and worse. They hopefully will get him in quickly that way. And if you never got the results of the skin scraping that the first vet did you need to call them ASAP, get a copy of the test results, and ask specifically why he was put on the antibiotic he was given. Don't ever be afraid to ask questions, and ALWAYS get a copy of all test results, his complete chart with notes on his diagnosis, etc.

In the meantime you need to completely sanitize his enclosure and everything in it. Throw out all rocks, wood, etc. that is porous. You need to order or find some F10 (bleach will work in the meantime) to disinfect his enclosure, both inside and out. Use only disposable substrates from now on like paper towels, and change them often. You need to soak his enclosure in a mixture of the F10 or bleach and hot water, rinse well, then dry well. Even the stand his enclosure is on. And keep all other animals away.

As for him, no more baths, if it is a fungal infection then dampness will spread it. What you can try while waiting to get into the certified Reptile vet is buying either Betadine (iodine) or Hibiclens at Walmart, along with a few gallons of sterile water. Mix the Betadine or Hibiclens with the sterile water, like 1 part antiseptic to 2-3 parts water, then heat it until warm but not hot (don't want to burn him). If using Betadine the solution will look like a weak iced tea, the Hibiclens is pink, so the solution will be very faintly pink with some soap bubbles. Both are great antiseptics that are used in the scrub packs in hospital operating rooms and they kill everything. Soak him in this warmed solution for 15-20 minutes twice a day, then dry him really well. Then also buy a topical antifungal medication at Walmart (or any drug store, I find Walmart cheaper), I'd start with Lotrimin or the generic Walmart or store brand of Lotrimin. It's a pretty broad-spectrum antifungal cream. Apply it sparingly to each lesion, just enough to cover each lesion and rub it in as well as you can. I'd do the antiseptic soaks and apply the topical antifungal cream twice a day. Other than these treatments keep both your bearded dragon and his enclosure completely dry at all times. Clean and dry is going to be very important for both him and his enclosure and anything he touches. Also keeping his basking temperature high enough but still having a temperature gradient from a cool side between 75-80 degrees so he can get out of the heat is important.

Keep in mind that the soaks in the antiseptic and the topical antifungal cream are only meant to try and slow the progression of the fungal infection, but only If it's a fungal infection! The Betadine or Hibiclens soaks will kill both bacteria and fungi, but they won't "cure" him, only slow the external, topical infection if it's bacterial or fungal. If it's a viral infection that he has then none of this will do much of anything except keeping the external lesions from developing infections secondary to the actual disease that's causing them. The only way you're going to cure this is to take him to a certified Reptile vet ASAP, get the cause of the lesions diagnosed, and treat the Infection with aggressive medications. I'm hoping it's not Yellow Fungus, it doesn't present like Yellow Fungus in the typical fashion, but that really doesn't mean anything. What most people don't understand about fungal infections is that they are growing both internally and externally, but all we can see are the external representations of the infection. So a lot of people will try to get away with treating Yellow Fungus with only topical creams, while the fungal infection is raging internally. So it's vital that you get him to a certified Reptile vet who will run the appropriate tests to diagnose and then treat him.
There were 3 different types of "things" in the growth. He never told me whether or not they were all bacteria or not, and I've never heard of them. Pseudomonas aeruginosa, Enterobacter sp., and Staph. aureus. I've been looking for good reptile vets, and most of the vets in Miami that will accept reptiles don't have great reviews. Is there a site that lists certified reptile vets? The first vet prescribed an antibiotic and a topical triple antibiotic cream, but if the growths are fungi, then antibiotics won't help - I know that. The second one just gave me vitamins and said it would take a long time to heal; I know reptiles have amazingly slow metabolisms but I'm concerned because, instead of slowly healing, it's quickly getting worse. And I actually have been giving him iodine baths regularly. His enclosure is stupidly clean right now, and he has a cool area that is about 82F. He moves there regularly, so I placed his UVB light there instead of next to his basking lamp, and his basking area is 113F.
 

Cloudkyt

Member
Original Poster
Drache613":38rr6aas said:
Hello,

Let us know how your dragon is doing & if you were able to find another vet.


Tracie
I haven't been able to find a vet yet :( and Renekton is doing as well as he can be right now, with the growths and all.
 

EllenD

Gray-bearded Member
Yeah, see all 3 of those bacterium are normally found on and in the skin of pretty much all living creatures, and the fact that there are multiple growths in different locations on his body should have told them that the bacteria had nothing to do with the cause of the growths. How frustrating for you and your little guy! I did a search for board certified Reptile vets and it looks like there is one in Fort Lauderdale but that's it close to you. Heather Skaggs is her name.

Have you been using a topical antifungal cream? If so, has it helped at all, meaning have the growths themselves gotten smaller? Obviously a topical antifungal cream won't cure the internal fungal infection, but if a topical cream shrinks individual growths then that's at least an indication that it is fungal in nature... if the cream you're using isn't shrinking the growths then I suggest trying a different over the counter antifungal cream. For example, if you've been using Lotrimin (clotrimazole) and it has made no difference, you may want to next try Tinactin (tolnaftate), Mycostatin (Nystatin), or Terbinafine (Lamisil). The reason I list these specifically is because they are all from different classes of antifungal medications, so you wouldn't just be trying different antifungal medications from the same class of drugs, because chances are that if one doesn't work then another drug from the same class won't help either. For example, if you've been using Lotrimin (clotrimazole) and it hasn't helped, then you probably don't want to try Micatin (miconazole) or Nizoral (ketaconazole) because they are very closely related. The drugs I listed above are each from a different class of antifungal medications and are easily available over the counter, either as a women's yeast Infection medication or as an antifungal for jock itch or athlete's foot. If you find one that helps pretty directly after starting it, that can also narrow down what specific fungal infection he has because each class of drugs treats very specific fungal infections. I'm hoping it isn't viral because that can be much more difficult to treat, and usually there isn't much at all that you can do.

Also, if you've been doing soaks in Betadine for a while and they haven't stopped the spread of the growths, I suggest trying a week of soaks in Hibiclens. It certainly won't make him any worse, but it very well may help him show marked improvement in a very short period of time. Povidone iodine kills pretty much everything, but Hibiclens has been shown to specifically treat and actually cure fungal infections in people. There have been several studies and controlled trials done that you can find easily by googling "Hibiclens for fungal infections", and there are hundreds and hundreds of people who have suffered from chronic fungal infections all over their bodies-armpits, groin area, feet, back of their knees, inside their elbows, in the creases of their skin, everywhere-and these fungal infections cause body odor. Some people have immune systems that just do not keep fungal infections at bay, and they literally have multiple different fungal infections all over their bodies at any given time. It can be very traumatic for young kids and teenagers because of the odor, and constant showering only makes it worse. These people typically end up trying dozens and dozens of topical, oral, and injectable antifungal medications with little to no resolution. In a majority of these people if they wash daily with Hibiclens first thing in the morning the fungal infections are kept at bay all day, and the odor is gone. The only issue for these people is that Hibiclens kills everything, good and bad, so after a long period of daily use their skin is basically destroyed. I used Hibiclens scrub packs during my internship at the Dubois Regional Medical Center, Cardiac Center, and Cancer Center. They use Hibiclens scrub packs in both the operating rooms and the emergency and trauma surgical rooms. So I would go to Walmart and buy the smaller bottle of Hibiclens, it's right next to the Betadine, and just replace his Betadine soaks with the same mixed solution of Betadine. I'm willing to bet you'll see a large improvement in only a week or so. If not then no harm done because it certainly won't get any worse, but I think this has gone on for you two long enough, and it's time to mix it up a little and try some different treatments, because as you said it's quickly getting worse instead of slowly better. So switching up the antiseptic you've been using for his daily soaks and the class of topical antifungal medication you've been applying to the lesions is only logical.

I'm going to call my Certified Reptile vet and see if I can email him the photos of your beardie and his lesions. He's got 20+ years of Reptile experience and he owns Beardies himself, so he may have seen similar lesions and know what bug or virus it is and what the recommended treatment is. I'm also going to get into my texts and look at some reptile dermatology plates to see if I see anything similar.
 

EllenD

Gray-bearded Member
Hey, just a few questions that I know my vet will ask:

1.) Except for the black lesions (and the red, though I can't really tell what the morphology of the red stuff is), he is acting normally? He's eating normally, not list any weight? He's not at all lethargic? Has he shown any other signs or symptoms besides the external lesions since the lesions appeared?
2.) How old is he? He is definitely male?
3.) What basking light(s) do you use (Brand, model, and wattage)? What UVB light do you use (Brand, model, size, and type (coil, compact, tube)/(T8, T5)? How long has he been under these specific lights? Did you change his lighting or get new bulbs around the time these lesions appeared?
4.) I believe you said you first noticed the lesions in February? Prior to February did he ever show any other skin lesions or issues?
5.) What parts of his body does he currently have the lesions on? Are the lesions segregated to a specific part of his body?
6.) Besides the Betadine soaks and topical antibiotic ointment, what other topical meds and home remedies have you tried? What antibiotics did the first vet prescribe?

****Maybe it's just the photo, but you seem to say that these black lesions are mostly located on his back legs, and it looks like he's missing one toenail on his right back foot and ALL of his toenails on his left back foot. Is that correct? Did that happen before or after the lesions appeared?****
 

kingofnobbys

BD.org Sicko
My 2c / or 1p worth


Not a vet , but seems to me from a quick read that soaking in betadiene is not helping in this case, may even be helping this infection grow ==> a yeast or mould or fungal infection of some kind.

So need to steralise all his stuff thoroughly with F10sc diluted 1 part in 150 in water , let stand for 30 minutes to air dry and have good contact time , then wipe it all dry with disposable paper towels, maybe repeat (just in case).

I think perhaps until you can get him to a good reptile vet and id the infectious agent , maybe a general vet can take a swab to send off for culturing and testing to determine the most effective pharmaceutical to use , least this way you will not be flying blind and perhaps making it worse .

So cut the dilute betadiene baths - this will only help it spread and grow if it's a surface yeast or fungal or mould infection .

I think F10 Germicidal barrier ointment and washes with http://www.hyperdrug.co.uk/F10-Antiseptic-Solution-Ready-To-Use-Refill-1L/Productinfo/F10ANTISSR/ might help here.
Skin, scale and feather decontamination: Treat the patient by spraying, soaking or washing with a 1:250 F10 Antiseptic Solution
..
..
. Leave to air dry.
Full body emersion in a 1:1000 solution has been shown to be effective at treating skin problems in some species of reptile and amphibians.
See http://www.hyperdrug.co.uk/F10-Germicidal-Barrier-Ointment/productinfo/F10GERMBO/
F10® Germicidal Barrier Ointment is a multi-purpose broad spectrum preparation effective against a wide range of bacteria, fungi, viruses and spores. The F10 actives are presented in an easily applied preparation containing lanoline emollient which helps to maintain and restore skin viability and assist the ointment to adhere to the skin surface to form an effective antimicrobial barrier. It is ideal as a topical application to treat and help prevent re-infection in a number of clinical situations either alone or in conjunction with associated therapies. The F10® Germicidal Barrier Ointment has been shown to maintain 100% residual action after 5 days.

Uses of F10® Germicidal Barrier Ointment

Superficial skin lesions, burns and open or contaminated wounds:
Where appropriate first clean and flush the lesion with F10® Antiseptic Solution. Aseptically blot dry. F10® Germicidal Barrier Ointment can now be directly applied.
The Barrier Ointment is effective in both superficial lesions and deep penetrating wounds.

It's my understanding very few USA based vets know anything about these products, they very effective and used very widely by reptile keepers and vets here in Australia , my local reptile vet swears by F10, reckons it's the ant's pants.
 

Cloudkyt

Member
Original Poster
EllenD":12ehy4nt said:
Hey, just a few questions that I know my vet will ask:

1.) Except for the black lesions (and the red, though I can't really tell what the morphology of the red stuff is), he is acting normally? He's eating normally, not list any weight? He's not at all lethargic? Has he shown any other signs or symptoms besides the external lesions since the lesions appeared?
2.) How old is he? He is definitely male?
3.) What basking light(s) do you use (Brand, model, and wattage)? What UVB light do you use (Brand, model, size, and type (coil, compact, tube)/(T8, T5)? How long has he been under these specific lights? Did you change his lighting or get new bulbs around the time these lesions appeared?
4.) I believe you said you first noticed the lesions in February? Prior to February did he ever show any other skin lesions or issues?
5.) What parts of his body does he currently have the lesions on? Are the lesions segregated to a specific part of his body?
6.) Besides the Betadine soaks and topical antibiotic ointment, what other topical meds and home remedies have you tried? What antibiotics did the first vet prescribe?

****Maybe it's just the photo, but you seem to say that these black lesions are mostly located on his back legs, and it looks like he's missing one toenail on his right back foot and ALL of his toenails on his left back foot. Is that correct? Did that happen before or after the lesions appeared?****
Hi :).
1) Yes and yes. He eats his meals each day as soon as they're given. I'm surprised I don't draw back a nub with the way he goes after them lol, and has only gained weight. No, he is not lethargic, in fact, he's quite active. No.
2) About a year and a half - the reptile store didn't tell me when he hatched, but when I got him last may he was 3 months old, and yes. He is a male.
3) I use a Fluker's 10'' clamp lamp with a 150 W bulb. His UVB lamp is a Zoo med Reptisun and the rest I have no idea what they mean lol. I just replaced the bulbs and the heating lamp is brand new as I wanted to get a hotter lamp. The UVB has been the same - just a replaced bulb. But the heating lamp is also the same brands I used before. No, the lights have always been the same up until last week, when I got him a hotter lamp.
4) Correct and no.
5) Kind of. His belly and the softer parts of his body tend to be affected - the underside. Two new bumps on his beard just appeared. Similar appearance, but darker.
6) I haven't tried anything at home for fear of giving him something that's poisonous, since I really don't know what's toxic and what's not - I don't want to take chances with him. And honestly? I have no idea what he prescribed. He didn't tell me.
 

EllenD

Gray-bearded Member
Hey, I called my Certified Reptile Vet at home (he's a good guy and a friend) and he made a call and came up with these veterinarians as being members of ARAV, so they are the best Reptile and Amphibian specialists in the Miami area. He is also going to take a look at the photos and call me back, but he wanted to know if the lesions feel rock hard, or do they feel like they may have fluid I side them. I told him that to me they look to have defined borders and look to be hard and implanted in the skin, as to me they almost look like black plantar's warts.

Here's the vets, and I'll get back to you after he looks at the photos and calls me...Oh, he 100% agreed with me that the 3 bacteria that the lesions tested positive for are normal bacteria that live on the skin, and most likely have nothing at all to do with the cause of them. The only way that the bacteria would be involved is if they actually had drained fluid from inside the lesions and found the bacteria inside the fluid. If they don't tested a skin scraping and found those 3 bacteria present then it most likely means nothing and whatever antibiotics he was put on was a complete waste of time and money, and would only serve to mess up his system.
.

Robert Pane
South Kendall Animal Clinic
9501 SW 160th St.
Miami, FL

Greg Rupp
Animal House Veterinary Hospital
12385 Pembroke Rd
Pembroke Pines, FL

Sam Strauss
4585 Weston Rd
Weston, FL

He said the first one, Robert Pane, is board certified
 
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