Hypercalciumia...vet is at a loss. Seeking help!

Status
Not open for further replies.

leezardo

Member
Several weeks ago, I posted in the Beardie ER forum about my 2.5 - 3 year old, Leezardo. (The post is still there and has more info about my set up and diet. I did manage to mount the ReptiSun 5.0 lighting under the metal lid since the post, but just on the side he stays on.). I took him to what I thought was the best exotic vet in our area because I thought he had tail rot and he was limping (front left leg). Yesterday, I found out, the reptile specialist had left a few years ago, and I saw a highly sought after avian vet, which wasn't helpful. Anyway, I followed directions to give injections of an antibiotic for 2 weeks every other day, and also baths every other day to help with the tail shed. She had taken off a good portion of the built up scales before I left. She also said to dust all food with calcium because he MBD could be the limping issue.

Fast forward to this week. I went to my regular vet office, who has a general reptile/avian on board. They had me bring him in before work and said to pick him up after. I spoke to her, and she is at a loss. She said she spent most of the day between her regular appointments searching her books and online, took an x-ray, and ran blood work twice trying to find answers. His calcium level was OFF THE CHARTS. Normal range is 10-14 and the machine won't read above 32....he was above 32. She thinks he is also a little chubby.

See the pictures to see what his physical symptoms are. I had his front leg that was looking like built up shed looking almost normal. It quickly came back once i backed off of the frequent baths. He did shed some a couple of weeks ago around his beard, mouth and eyes. Overnight, his back right leg has turned white and a patch at his neck. The vet thinks it could be stress induced, and not shedding. His tail looks somewhat better (last picture is the older pic). As I said, I had his front leg looking good, but now he won't let me touch it without jerking it away and opening his mouth (even a hiss or two) at me. This tells me he is in more pain than before.

Other than upping the calcium dusting, which in reality, what could cause this hypercalciumia? She has actually referred my case to a an area zoo's retired reptile vet who works from home. I haven't scheduled an appointment yet, but hope to meet next week if he is available.

Any ideas, suggestions, thoughts?
91318-4553674050.jpg
91318-3170297509.jpg
91318-9043738474.jpg
91318-831193091.jpg
91318-2398218359.jpg
 

kingofnobbys

BD.org Sicko
Are you using D3 fortified calcium powder on his insects ?
....dusting his greens with it too ?

This seems to be very common practice on this board.

Might be D3 has been accumulated in blood and might be at toxic levels ???? and as a result he's not able to properly process dietary calcium or excrete excess calcium ....I'm no vet and been a long long time since I touched my biochemistry text or my organic chemistry texts but this seems to be a possibility.

I think the vet needs to investigate that avenue and perhaps make recommendations on changes to Leezardo's supplementation regime .

Could also be inadequate UVB at his basking spot , you mention a 5% tube , this needs to be very close even if it's a T5 tube , to provide adequate UVB to him. I think it's worth swapping it out for a tube rated AT LEAST 10%uvb , 12%uvb is going to be better.
 

Mysty

Juvie Member
Yes I 100% agree to try dusting with pure calcium only. Check the tub and if it says with D3, its not ideal. You can buy reptile branded pure calcium online or in some reptile shops.

By the way its complety not your fault if he has excess D3 which are causing these symptoms, as you are simply following veterinary advice.
 

kingofnobbys

BD.org Sicko
I had to re-find this - I think your vet may find it helpful in diagnosing your beardie

343ivx4.png

Pertinent extract is marked with a red rectangle .... if the image is unviewable = see page 6 of the pdf file
1601nv8.png

so much for TINYPIC
OVER_DOSE_VIT_D3_2.png

The main consequence of vitamin D toxicity is a buildup of calcium in your blood (hypercalcemia).
Hypervitaminosis D is a rare but potentially serious condition. It occurs when too much vitamin D is ingested.
 

leezardo

Member
Original Poster
I checked the calcium and it does have vitamin D in it. It is by Zoo Med and has the green label. The lighting is the Reptisun T5 5.0 and it is mounted under the screen. It sits approximately 13" above him right now because he has a low basking rock. I will don't mind switching it to a 10.0, I was just afraid that it would be too strong based on what I read.

Yes, I was dusting his greens per the vet.

Thank you for the article! I found the full PDF file and will drop it off to the vet this week.

Do you have any recommendations for his current diet?
 

CooperDragon

BD.org Sicko
Staff member
Moderator
The 5.0 is much too week and ineffective at that distance. A T5 10.0 in a reflective fixture would be just right at 12''. I try to get a UVI between about 3-6 over the basking area with gradients to much lower numbers in other areas of the tank. This is the output from the T5 10.0 vs 5.0 based on recent tests I've done.

76248-7328112703.jpg

76248-5109533737.jpg

It shows the UVI beyond 12'' from the 5.0 without a screen is quite low while output from the 10.0 without a screen is much closer to the appropriate range. As long as you create a gradient with an option to get away from the higher UVB, it's best to use a higher powered light in my opinion.
 

AHBD

BD.org Sicko
Hi there, in a nutshell what King pointed out and I've been trying to recommend that LESS calcium, especially with D3 is needed than what people are commonly using. The dragon is overweight as well, [ although very pretty and obviously very loved ! :) ] Are you sure it's a male ? I posted a good article in both the feeding forum and the general forum about too much calcium + D3 leading to serious health problems but it just got buried. Here is the link....I think it should be made a sticky.
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=232638

Sub adult + adult beardie do not need calcium with every meal but only 2-3 times a week at the most, on one meal and very lightly. As for his leg, does he limp on it ?

The uneven shed is common, does not require excessive bathing and is not a health problem. My dragons look like that quite often, here's a pic of one right here.
https://www.beardeddragon.org/media/29897/full
 

kingofnobbys

BD.org Sicko
A thing to check is the colour of the urates, if they are not white , but look for an orange tinge in the urates ==> too much dietary calcium or perhaps excess intake of dietary vitD3 .
 

kingofnobbys

BD.org Sicko
CooperDragon":1pp822r2 said:
The 5.0 is much too week and ineffective at that distance. A T5 10.0 in a reflective fixture would be just right at 12''. I try to get a UVI between about 3-6 over the basking area with gradients to much lower numbers in other areas of the tank. This is the output from the T5 10.0 vs 5.0 based on recent tests I've done.

76248-7328112703.jpg

76248-5109533737.jpg

It shows the UVI beyond 12'' from the 5.0 without a screen is quite low while output from the 10.0 without a screen is much closer to the appropriate range. As long as you create a gradient with an option to get away from the higher UVB, it's best to use a higher powered light in my opinion.

I try to get about 140 microwatts UVB / sq-cm at my basking spot as this is close to mid-morning, mid-afternoon UV exposure in summer in the natural range..
I have been using 26W UVB200s mounted horizontally in NanoHoods ( consider reflector factor about 2x )
From Exo Terra data (for a bare globe , no reflector)
ufb200_26w_uva_and_uvb.gif
 

Drache613

BD.org Sicko
Staff member
Moderator
Hello,

I do have to agree that the UVB is likely too weak & supplementing calcium & calcium with D3 is not absorbing due to inadequate UVB exposure.
Definitely try plain calcium without D3. As Cooper listed the tube bulbs & the strengths, I would recommend going to the T5 10% instead.
Are you sure Leezardo is a male & not a gravid female? Calcium levels that high are normally only high due to a few reasons. Follicular development is usually responsible for a large number of hypercalcemia problems. Otherwise, the high calcium is caused by malabsorption & leeching of the bones to maintain calcium serum homeostasis.
Is he walking & climbing normally?
The end of the tail, are you treating that with antibiotic ointment/cream to help?

Tracie
 

leezardo

Member
Original Poster
Thanks for the input. I talked to the retired zoo vet on Friday and this is what I was told...

1. He might be a she - as you all have pointed out. Might need to be renamed "Leezarda"
2. He is obese. This could be causing a fatty liver and issues.
3. Sounds like circulatory issues could be a problem, too.
4. His husbandry is fine. He actually told me to turn the lights off and since it is summer, just expose him to 10-13 hours of natural sunlight outdoors per week. He will benefit from this more than the artificial.

I go to see him at his house on Wednesday. I will post an update.

Tracie - the previous vet gave me manuka honey. I haven't been putting it on very much lately since it kind of hardened over and isn't crusty anymore. Should I continue with it or switch to Neosporin, Polysporin, etc.?
 

kingofnobbys

BD.org Sicko
leezardo":1a4kic2h said:
Thanks for the input. I talked to the retired zoo vet on Friday and this is what I was told...

1. He might be a she - as you all have pointed out. Might need to be renamed "Leezarda"
2. He is obese. This could be causing a fatty liver and issues.
3. Sounds like circulatory issues could be a problem, too.
4. His husbandry is fine. He actually told me to turn the lights off and since it is summer, just expose him to 10-13 hours of natural sunlight outdoors per week. He will benefit from this more than the artificial.
<<< This is fine with display animals in an outdoor pit at a zoo, but not so great if she spends most her life indoors in a viv, I'd leave the UV lights on (10% - 12% UVB T5) for 14 - 16 hr per day and give her time outside each hazy or sunny day....best of both world's. when she has had enough UVA and UVB she'll do what my gang do - retire into her cave for a siesta for a while.

<<< I'd be requesting blood tests to check for liver and kidney function , and to check for vitD3 toxicity before changing anything .... otherwise you may do more harm than good and make things worse.

I go to see him at his house on Wednesday. I will post an update.

Tracie - the previous vet gave me manuka honey. I haven't been putting it on very much lately since it kind of hardened over and isn't crusty anymore. Should I continue with it or switch to Neosporin, Polysporin, etc.?

Certainly worth having a consult and having his new (retired zoo vet) give her a thorough examination, but bare in mind that zoo vets are generalists , I've dealt with one and found he was not so knowledgeable about reptiles.
 

Drache613

BD.org Sicko
Staff member
Moderator
Hello,

You can definitely continue to use the Manuka honey, it is a great anti-bacterial & anti-microbial agent. If it's helping to improve the tail then it's working nicely.
I am also wondering as well, if he is possibly a female which is gravid. When are you going to the vets?
Let us know how he is doing.

Tracie
 

AHBD

BD.org Sicko
A good reptile vet would know on the first exam if your dragon is M/F. Can you post a few pics with his/her tail arched up in the air ,[ think of like a dog that is excited ] And you can also use this method :

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=209431
 

leezardo

Member
Original Poster
91318-4355368503.jpg

Girl or boy?

It was actually a nice, sunny day here. He was outside for about 5 hours. He turned very, very bright!
91318-4051469839.jpg
91318-8672466240.jpg

I did purchase a 10.0 bulb today. Plan on installing it once his lights go off for the evening.

As for the zoo vet, I am told that he dealt only with the reptiles. He doesn't have an official business, he just takes referrals from people he knows. I go this coming Wednesday.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Members online

Still Needs Help

Latest resources

Latest posts

Latest profile posts

What is a quick way to warm up a cold beardie? His heating element went out overnight and now he's very cold.
Pearl Girl wrote on moorelori1966's profile.
i feel so sad reading your about me 😢
Clapton is acclimating okay I think. He's quick as lightning so I'm not sure how much I should bring him out of his house yet. He's not at all interested in his salad though. I wonder if I should change what I'm giving him. Least he's eating his crickets.

Things to do:
Buy calcium powder
Material to raise surface for basking spot
Scenery decals for back of tank
Taking my beardie for a walk

Forum statistics

Threads
155,853
Messages
1,255,168
Members
75,936
Latest member
KarmaChild99
Top Bottom