Confirmed Gout

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tsjohn19

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My beardie Vlad was confirmed with gout roughly 2 months ago from a vet. It seems to still be in the acute stage because only one arm has been affected. I'm just trying to get out in front of this before it becomes to severe. The uric crystal deposits are around his left elbow and this is also causing significant swelling to his arm. Fortunately he has been and is still extremely active with no major signs of discomfort. A bunch of tests were done and his uric acid levels, or whatever is being measured, came back at a 10.5 ( I forget what unit that would be in) and the vet said that it is in that middle stage where 5 and under is normal and 20+ is severe. This was a couple months ago, so I can only imagine it has gotten somewhat worse because the deposit continues to grow. The tests on his organs came back fine and we believe the culprit is a too heavy of a dubia roach diet because of how high in protein they are. At the time the vet prescribed Metacam to help alleviate some pain which is now been used up. The vet suggested we come back in a month to get retested, but after $500 in vet bills because of all the tests (x-ray, blood, parasite, etc) and our older female needing looked at, we have put that temporarily on hold

Some info on Vlad and setup:
He is rougly 8 months old and his diet has now gone from 15+ / day down to 4-5 every other day. He eats a rotating mixture of turnip and mustard greens, yams, zucchini, escarole, bell pepper, apple, blueberry and papaya. The greens and escarole are more staples while the veggies get rotated and the fruits mixed in slightly less frequently. As a treat he gets superworms, but not all that often. Insects or greens are calcium dusted 5 or so times a week with the other days usually being dusted with vitamins (Reptical and Reptivite). He is bathed at length maybe 1-2 times a week with some other short baths given when he makes a mess of himself. His cage is 48x20x13 (I don't know gallons), but this is a fairly new cage. Old cage was a 20 gallon long. His cage's temperature range is 83f-100f with a flourescent tube running half the length for uvb and a basking bulb used for heating. Like I mentioned earlier the vet found no kidney failure and that is why a high protein diet is suspected to be the culprit and most of the research I have been finding almost exclusively points to the kidneys failing as the cause, so I don't know if a different approach is needed or not. I fear lowering the roach count more or ending it indefinitely because of how young he still is, but he does do work on his salad daily even though you can see how pissed he is that he isn't getting his protein!

Please ask if more information is needed and any and all help is greatly appreciated!
 

AHBD

BD.org Sicko
Hi ts, sorry that your boy has gout. At least it's just in one arm only and not his kidneys. I remember reading that the dubia was thought to possibly cause gout, it may be more so if the roaches themselves are on a high protein diet. I agree that a reduction in protein , as well as extra hydration + green veggies would be good. One of the members here recommends alfalfa meal as well.

Can you post pics of Vlad, full body pics as well as his arm ? Some people give cherry extract for gout, there are a few threads on here if you search . One of the mods. [ Drache613 ] here is pretty up on the best approaches to helping a dragon with gout.

Best wishes to Vlad.
 

Drache613

BD.org Sicko
Staff member
Moderator
Hello,

I am sorry about Vlad having gout!
The uric acid reading of 10/5mg/dl (most likely reading measurement) is the borderline really for uric acid crystallization. Since it has basically been confirmed, to ward it off & keep it from getting worse he needs to be started on Allopurinol immediately. It is terrific news his kidneys do not seem to have been affected yet & hopefully the levels will go down with a diet change for awhile so it wont become full blown visceral gout.
The black cherry is excellent for helping out the kidneys & dissolving uric acid. However, I recommend the combination of the black cherry supplement, along with Allopurinol for now. That really is the best regime to get those levels down.
As suggested, the alfalfa has shown some evidence in helping the body break down the proteins & aiding in gout symptoms, too. I would try to get 4-6mls of oral fluids into him, daily as well.
Do you happen to have any pictures of him?

Tracie
 

tsjohn19

Member
Original Poster
Thanks for the feedback!

Yeah the dubia diet may have been too high in protein as well. When he was weighed at the vet a couple months ago he was over 150g and they were pretty surprised by that. It seems he was just a little too healthy. He has slimmed down a bit because of the lower protein diet, but other than that his limbs still seem sturdy.

https://postimg.org/image/o24bovtsd/
https://postimg.org/image/d7vuam3a5/
https://postimg.org/image/xt4en5yrh/
https://postimg.org/image/4jf4gv9oj/

What dose of black cherry juice should I give and how frequent? Also I know you can buy allopurinol online if I don't end up going to the vet; what dose should be given and how should it be administered / frequency?

Thanks for the help!
 

Drache613

BD.org Sicko
Staff member
Moderator
Hello,

Those are very good pictures of him. He looks so sweet, too.
How is he doing today?
I am glad he still seems very strong. How much does he weigh now?
The black cherry extract juice can be given daily, maybe .5ml to 1ml for him. He should love the flavor of it.
The allopurinol can be given at a 20mg/kg to start out with, then it can be reduced down to an appropriate maintenance level. The maintenance dose is 5mg/kg. When were you planning on starting him on it?

Tracie
 

tsjohn19

Member
Original Poster
He's doing fine; like I said before it seems to be having a limited effect on his mobility and comfort from what I can gauge. He doesn't limp or pull up on it so that's good. My older female is caged below him so whenever he sees her he goes into man mode and tries to run through his cage without the least bit of difficulty. So far he loves the the cherry juice it just can be a pain to try and use an oral syringe to hydrate this much between the juice and the water. Both my beardies have never drank from a water bowl or the bath so I'm trying differene methods to try and entice them to do so. We are thinking on going to the vet within the next week or so, but if we don't where would you recommend me buying the allopurinol?

Thanks for the help!
 

Drache613

BD.org Sicko
Staff member
Moderator
Hello,

I'm glad that he seems to be doing so well & is very active too. :D At least he doesn't have any mobility issues yet, that's a good sign. I am happy he loves his black cherry juice also, it's good for him.
You can mix the juice in with the water to help out since it is a challenge to hydrate through using a syringe.
I will PM you a link for the allopurinol.

Tracie
 

tsjohn19

Member
Original Poster
Just had a follow-up vet appointment for Vlad and his uric acid levels went down from 10 to 1, so very relieved to see that. A lot of my anxiety came from the fact that the bump on his arm did not get smaller, but the vet said that it probably would not get much smaller. At this point it's just about containing it to the one spot and managing any pain or discomfort that may emerge.

Thanks for all the replies!
 

Drache613

BD.org Sicko
Staff member
Moderator
Hello,

WOW, that is a huge decrease. It will probably level out around 3-4mg/dl which is normal. You don't want it too low. How is he doing?
Did you get meds for him, or are you sticking with just Black Cherry juice?
The bump on his arm could go down in time, it may just take awhile. If it's manageable though then he will be just fine! I am happy he has gotten so much better now. :D

Tracie
 

tsjohn19

Member
Original Poster
He's doing great. The vet didn't seem to want and start any meds and I see no reason to at this point either. He said under 5 is good, but that 1 value is just so low from the extreme lack of protein, but he said I could increase it by 50%. Fortunately even with the low protein diet he went from weighing 150g two months ago to 300g today. I do plan on keeping under with the fluids and cherry juice.
 

Drache613

BD.org Sicko
Staff member
Moderator
Hello,

That's great he is doing so much better. I am glad you are going to stick with the Black Cherry &
extra fluids. I think he will be fine with that.
Bringing up his protein should help increase the uric acid some, too. At least he still managed to gain weight even on a low protein diet, also.
I agree, he most likely doesn't need meds now, it was caught early enough & reversed. I doubt much if any damage has been done.

Let us know how he is doing.

Tracie
 
tsjohn19":3ruid1rt said:
Thanks for the feedback!

Yeah the dubia diet may have been too high in protein as well. When he was weighed at the vet a couple months ago he was over 150g and they were pretty surprised by that. It seems he was just a little too healthy. He has slimmed down a bit because of the lower protein diet, but other than that his limbs still seem sturdy.

https://postimg.org/image/o24bovtsd/
https://postimg.org/image/d7vuam3a5/
https://postimg.org/image/xt4en5yrh/
https://postimg.org/image/4jf4gv9oj/

What dose of black cherry juice should I give and how frequent? Also I know you can buy allopurinol online if I don't end up going to the vet; what dose should be given and how should it be administered / frequency?

Thanks for the help!
hi i would like to know about the under bite that he has. do you feed him enough calcium?
 

tsjohn19

Member
Original Poster
Lol we make fun of him for that. He has had it since we got him at around 1-2 months old. He gets calcium about 5 times a week and vitamins 1-2 times a week. I didn't know that the underbite was indicative of anything. To be honest during the diagnostic process we though it may have been caused by over calcium because not only was he getting too many roaches that were being dusted, but the roaches were on a high calcium/protein diet as well. I will try and get a picture or two up of when he was younger; it may just be less pronounced and harder to tell, but we noticed it.

Thanks
 
tsjohn19":1gr2glml said:
Lol we make fun of him for that. He has had it since we got him at around 1-2 months old. He gets calcium about 5 times a week and vitamins 1-2 times a week. I didn't know that the underbite was indicative of anything. To be honest during the diagnostic process we though it may have been caused by over calcium because not only was he getting too many roaches that were being dusted, but the roaches were on a high calcium/protein diet as well. I will try and get a picture or two up of when he was younger; it may just be less pronounced and harder to tell, but we noticed it.

Thanks
Yes. Bexause from what I hsve read it can be sign of a calcium deficiency.
 
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