Is a bright light required over the basking surface?

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Re: Is a bright light required over the basking surface?

Postby kingofnobbys » Sat Aug 03, 2019 9:08 pm

I suggest you do a metasearch / literature review as this question has been addressed.
CBDs: Cleopatra & Caesar born 28Jan19.
Puff (RIP 10Dec15),Rex (RIP 16Mar17),Toothless (RIP 26Nov17).Peppa (RIP 22Mar19).
EBTSs : George & Mildred (born july 2010).
EWSs : , Fluffy (F) rescued injured by lawnwacker 14Nov17, Gutzy (F) rescued 27Sep19 - RIP 3Aug20 (est 12 yo), Wriggles (F) - injured rescue, over 8 yrs old, RIP 2Feb16 old age. Lucky juvenile (M) - cat attack rescue (lost r-eye, broken r-lower jaw), fatal SI RIP 21Jul2010.
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Re: Is a bright light required over the basking surface?

Postby Claudiusx » Sun Aug 04, 2019 10:27 am

Nope cant find anything that answers the question. You're a lot better at googling than me perhaps you will have better luck. Anyways it should be easy since you've obviously read an article that stated that before since you said it so matter of factly.
Looking forward to reading the study you provide.

-Brandon
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Re: Is a bright light required over the basking surface?

Postby kingofnobbys » Sun Aug 04, 2019 7:32 pm

claudiusx wrote:Nope cant find anything that answers the question. You're a lot better at googling than me perhaps you will have better luck. Anyways it should be easy since you've obviously read an article that stated that before since you said it so matter of factly.
Looking forward to reading the study you provide.

-Brandon


Nope , I don't use google , I use my local university's online search tools (NEWCAT+) , this gives me access to much more than Google has on it.

Try using the local public library's online search tools. They are usually linked to all libraries in your region including university libraries.

I wont be doing your homework for you.
Last edited by kingofnobbys on Sun Aug 04, 2019 8:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
CBDs: Cleopatra & Caesar born 28Jan19.
Puff (RIP 10Dec15),Rex (RIP 16Mar17),Toothless (RIP 26Nov17).Peppa (RIP 22Mar19).
EBTSs : George & Mildred (born july 2010).
EWSs : , Fluffy (F) rescued injured by lawnwacker 14Nov17, Gutzy (F) rescued 27Sep19 - RIP 3Aug20 (est 12 yo), Wriggles (F) - injured rescue, over 8 yrs old, RIP 2Feb16 old age. Lucky juvenile (M) - cat attack rescue (lost r-eye, broken r-lower jaw), fatal SI RIP 21Jul2010.
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Re: Is a bright light required over the basking surface?

Postby Claudiusx » Sun Aug 04, 2019 7:43 pm

Well it was your statement not mine. I'd expect on a discussion thread where we are all trying to learn that people would actually try to contribute to that. Making a statement and then refusing to show your source and requiring others to look it up is a sign that either you're lying, or you dont actually care about helping, you just want everyone to agree without question.

Unless your purpose here isnt to contribute to anything. I don't see how you're helping. With your unverifiable statements. Of course you can feel free to change your original comment to "you believe" instead. No double standards please. You demand scientific proof and evidence from everyone who disagrees with you. Literally every time I've asked the same out of you, you retreat.

So if you don't want to contribute and help, thanks for the lack of anything useable. But please just try to mud up your own threads instead.

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Re: Is a bright light required over the basking surface?

Postby kingofnobbys » Sun Aug 04, 2019 8:18 pm

claudiusx wrote:Well it was your statement not mine. I'd expect on a discussion thread where we are all trying to learn that people would actually try to contribute to that. Making a statement and then refusing to show your source and requiring others to look it up is a sign that either you're lying, or you dont actually care about helping, you just want everyone to agree without question.

Unless your purpose here isnt to contribute to anything. I don't see how you're helping. With your unverifiable statements. Of course you can feel free to change your original comment to "you believe" instead. No double standards please. You demand scientific proof and evidence from everyone who disagrees with you. Literally every time I've asked the same out of you, you retreat.

So if you don't want to contribute and help, thanks for the lack of anything useable. But please just try to mud up your own threads instead.

-Brandon


You think a bright overhead basking globe is not needed for bearded dragons , it's up to YOU to find supporting evidence ( scientific observations , etc ) that support this , else it is you who are muddying the waters by your assertions.
I provided information that shows it is necessary , I wont be spoon feeding it to you.
CBDs: Cleopatra & Caesar born 28Jan19.
Puff (RIP 10Dec15),Rex (RIP 16Mar17),Toothless (RIP 26Nov17).Peppa (RIP 22Mar19).
EBTSs : George & Mildred (born july 2010).
EWSs : , Fluffy (F) rescued injured by lawnwacker 14Nov17, Gutzy (F) rescued 27Sep19 - RIP 3Aug20 (est 12 yo), Wriggles (F) - injured rescue, over 8 yrs old, RIP 2Feb16 old age. Lucky juvenile (M) - cat attack rescue (lost r-eye, broken r-lower jaw), fatal SI RIP 21Jul2010.
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Re: Is a bright light required over the basking surface?

Postby Claudiusx » Sun Aug 04, 2019 8:33 pm

You provided a statement. Not information. Information would have been a link to a study supporting your statement. Anybody can say something. But words are useless. Especially coming from a questionable source....
kingofnobbys wrote:You think a bright overhead basking globe is not needed for bearded dragons , it's up to YOU to find supporting evidence

So.... your purpose on this thread is what then if you just said its up to me?
You refuse to contribute or help contribute so once again it calls into question your purpose of even joining in on this discussion?

Either contribute, or stop posting it's really not that hard.

-Brandon
Last edited by Claudiusx on Sun Aug 04, 2019 8:59 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Is a bright light required over the basking surface?

Postby kingofnobbys » Sun Aug 04, 2019 8:44 pm

kingofnobbys wrote:
claudiusx wrote:I have no clue what that link you posted has to do with this discussion. If you care to elaborate, feel free.

kingofnobbys wrote:It's been observed that reptiles in the wild will position themselves to bask with their backs to the sun hence they are aware of the position of the sun in the sky , they also respond similarly to basking globes that produce visible light.

Yes thats what we were discussing. Are they positioning themselves towards to sun because of the light coming from that direction, or the heat. Or, are they simply facing away from it because who wants to stare at the sun.
It would be easy enough to test I just don't have a CHE or a non light emitting heat bulb right now.

The goal is to mimic natural sunlight. The purpose of this thread is the question, does a basking bulb have to fulfill that requirement, or can general lighting in the tank do that instead.

-Brandon


They position themselves so the parietal eye is facing towards the source of light and IR flux.


ref
A sky polarization compass in lizards: the central role of the parietal eye .
G. Beltrami, C. Bertolucci, A. Parretta, F. Petrucci, A. Foà
Journal of Experimental Biology 2010 v213: p2048-2054; doi: 10.1242/jeb.040246

... investigations showed a central role of the parietal eye in lizard orientation in the field under the sun (Ellis-Quinn and Simon, 1991; Freake, 2001). In both experiments lizards released on sunny days outside their home ranges were orientated at random when their parietal eyes were covered with a patch (T. rugosa) or painted black (S. jarrovi). A previous study in which we used the Morris water maze outdoors confirmed the central role of the parietal eye in lizard orientation under the sun (Foà et al., 2009). Since painting the parietal eye might prevent lizards from perceiving light not only by the parietal eye itself but also by the pineal and deep brain photoreceptors (Pasqualetti et al., 2003; Bertolucci and Foà, 2004), further experiments outdoors in the Morris water maze were done at that time to compare the orientation of ruin lizards whose parietal eyes were painted black with that of ruin lizards whose parietal eyes were completely ablated. As both experimental groups were randomly orientated (after the parietal was covered) in the Morris water maze, these results demonstrated for the first time that only the parietal eye, and not other brain photoreceptors, is involved in lizard orientation (Foà et al., 2009).

In the light of the present results, one is led to attribute disorientation of lizards tested under the sun with covered or ablated parietal eyes to the consequent loss of function of their sky polarization compass. However, this might not be the whole story. In fact there is some evidence that the lizard parietal eye might also mediate functioning of a sun azimuth compass.
First of all, in all the experiments cited above lizards with covered or ablated parietal eyes were disoriented in spite of the fact that the sun disc was fully visible and their lateral eyes were completely unobstructed.
Furthermore, in our previous experiments outdoors, ruin lizards were tested at midday in summer in a Morris water maze surrounded by high fences (Foà et al., 2009). In such a situation ruin lizards were allowed to see a very limited patch of sky around the zenith, at a time of day (midday) when the sunlight directly above the parietal eye is mostly unpolarized (maximum polarization occurs at an angular distance of 90 deg from the sun, and thus near the horizon during midday). All this in our opinion strongly supports the contention that the parietal eye plays a central role in mediating not only a sky polarization compass but also an azimuth sun compass.


More details here
Antagonistic chromatic mechanisms in photoreceptors of the parietal eye of lizards.
Solessio, E. and Engbretson, G. A.
Nature 364, p442-p445.

Electroretinogram of the parietal eye of lizards: Photoreceptors, glial, and lens cell contributions.
Solessio, E. and Engbretson, G. A.
Visual Neurosci. 16, p895-907.

I am yet to see any substantive evidence to the contrary that a bright overhead light is needed for pet dragons . Anyone can readily observe the way lizards orientate themselves when basking under the natural sun or in a tank under an basking globe.
Last edited by kingofnobbys on Sun Aug 04, 2019 8:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.
CBDs: Cleopatra & Caesar born 28Jan19.
Puff (RIP 10Dec15),Rex (RIP 16Mar17),Toothless (RIP 26Nov17).Peppa (RIP 22Mar19).
EBTSs : George & Mildred (born july 2010).
EWSs : , Fluffy (F) rescued injured by lawnwacker 14Nov17, Gutzy (F) rescued 27Sep19 - RIP 3Aug20 (est 12 yo), Wriggles (F) - injured rescue, over 8 yrs old, RIP 2Feb16 old age. Lucky juvenile (M) - cat attack rescue (lost r-eye, broken r-lower jaw), fatal SI RIP 21Jul2010.
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Re: Is a bright light required over the basking surface?

Postby Claudiusx » Sun Aug 04, 2019 8:58 pm

Thank you. See that wasn't so hard, contributing is nice in a community.

However, it still doesnt mean a bright basking globe is a necessity. The study didnt answer the main question of this thread. It only substantiates your claim which didnt have much pull in the original question anyways.

-Brandon
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Re: Is a bright light required over the basking surface?

Postby kingofnobbys » Sun Aug 04, 2019 9:01 pm

claudiusx wrote:Thank you. See that wasn't so hard, contributing is nice in a community.

However, it still doesnt mean a bright basking globe is a necessity. The study didnt answer the main question of this thread. It only substantiates your claim which didnt have much pull in the original question anyways.

-Brandon


So prove your claim IF YOU CAN with hard scientific evidence. Ball is your court. I'm not optimistic you will succeed.
Last edited by kingofnobbys on Sun Aug 04, 2019 9:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
CBDs: Cleopatra & Caesar born 28Jan19.
Puff (RIP 10Dec15),Rex (RIP 16Mar17),Toothless (RIP 26Nov17).Peppa (RIP 22Mar19).
EBTSs : George & Mildred (born july 2010).
EWSs : , Fluffy (F) rescued injured by lawnwacker 14Nov17, Gutzy (F) rescued 27Sep19 - RIP 3Aug20 (est 12 yo), Wriggles (F) - injured rescue, over 8 yrs old, RIP 2Feb16 old age. Lucky juvenile (M) - cat attack rescue (lost r-eye, broken r-lower jaw), fatal SI RIP 21Jul2010.
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Re: Is a bright light required over the basking surface?

Postby Claudiusx » Sun Aug 04, 2019 9:04 pm

To reiterate
The question is, is full spectrum lighting being provided in the tank via non heat source bulbs in addition to a non light emitting heat source a suitable setup? Is it a better setup than just a uvb bulb and an incandescent basking bulb?

Do they need a bright "beam" to bask in?
The above is the main question of this discussion. And it will be an easy experiment to test and reproduce as I've mentioned before.

Pineal eye will get light exposure in all the above situations so it's really a moot discussion point at least for this topic.

Appreciate you posting your source :D

-Brandon
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Re: Is a bright light required over the basking surface?

Postby Claudiusx » Sun Aug 04, 2019 9:06 pm

kingofnobbys wrote:
claudiusx wrote:Thank you. See that wasn't so hard, contributing is nice in a community.

However, it still doesnt mean a bright basking globe is a necessity. The study didnt answer the main question of this thread. It only substantiates your claim which didnt have much pull in the original question anyways.

-Brandon


So prove your claim IF YOU CAN with hard scientific evidence.


Sorry, can you tell me which claim I need to prove? I dont recall making any claims. But I can promise you anything I state as fact I will back up. But dont confuse asking questions and stating reasoning behind thoughts as claims. Big difference between me asking a question, and you stating something matter of factly.

-Brandon
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Re: Is a bright light required over the basking surface?

Postby Claudiusx » Sun Aug 04, 2019 9:23 pm

Actually, your quotes from the study are misleading and dont actually substantiate your claim. The study is about the pineal eye being a tool for the ruin lizards to navigate through a training simulation. A compass, a means of reaching a point through learning. They never state that basking behavior or how they rest has anything to do with the pineal eye.

It's all an experiment on navigation. Hence the reoccurring usage of the word compass in the study.

Almost got me! ;) luckily I've learned to double check your sources as you often cherry pick to fit your agenda. Good job on the quotes though, they were convincing at first.

Would love if you could produce a study in regards to basking and pineal eye. That would actually be useful to my question (which by the way, you dont have to help me come to a conclusion with, so no need to get all emotional about it. however if you want to help me come to a conclusion you're more than welcome to) if there were a study that tested a cold bright basking area to a warm dark one, that would be beneficial. otherwise I am going to be doing this myself and I will have an actual answer.

-Brandon
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Re: Is a bright light required over the basking surface?

Postby kingofnobbys » Mon Aug 05, 2019 4:12 am

I don't play silly word games.

If the information I've provided has gone over your head, it's OK to admit it, no one will think any the least of you , we can't become engineers and or scientists.
CBDs: Cleopatra & Caesar born 28Jan19.
Puff (RIP 10Dec15),Rex (RIP 16Mar17),Toothless (RIP 26Nov17).Peppa (RIP 22Mar19).
EBTSs : George & Mildred (born july 2010).
EWSs : , Fluffy (F) rescued injured by lawnwacker 14Nov17, Gutzy (F) rescued 27Sep19 - RIP 3Aug20 (est 12 yo), Wriggles (F) - injured rescue, over 8 yrs old, RIP 2Feb16 old age. Lucky juvenile (M) - cat attack rescue (lost r-eye, broken r-lower jaw), fatal SI RIP 21Jul2010.
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Re: Is a bright light required over the basking surface?

Postby Claudiusx » Mon Aug 05, 2019 5:06 am

It was your statement and your study. They don't correlate and you know it lol. The whole study was about navigating. Nothing to do with basking behavior.

Ahhh and there it is. The insult once you've lost your footing and have no legitimate further additions or ground to stand on. The universal sign someone has lost an argument or debate.
Thank you for your time hopefully you're done and this thread can get back on track now.

-Brandon
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Re: Is a bright light required over the basking surface?

Postby CooperDragon » Mon Aug 05, 2019 9:28 am

Why do you guys insist on antagonizing eachother? Don't you think it would be best not to engage eachother at all at this point? I suggest you both do your best to either speak to eachother in a civil manner - this is just a discussion forum - or not engage on eachothers threads at all.
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