Is a bright light required over the basking surface?

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Is a bright light required over the basking surface?

Postby Claudiusx » Fri Aug 02, 2019 9:06 am

In my previous thread,Here, I made this comment in regards to Arcadias deep heat bulb (which produces no light)
Claudiusx wrote:I still believe a light should be used over the basking surface, but it would be for lighting only. An LED bulb could be used to keep energy consumption low, and still provide a beam of light over the basking area.


But that got me wondering too, is a bright light over the basking area necessary. More specifically, a directed beam over the basking light. We provide directed beams and have been for decades, because of the side effect of needing a directed beam of heat. But, if you were to use a bulb such as the arcadia bulb, you have directed heat over the basking area, without light.

In nature, there is no real directed beam of light over basking surfaces, there is just light, and heat.

So, what would happen if we relied on our uvb tubes for the general lighting in the tank, and used a non light emitting bulb to provide the heat?

If the tank is lit completely, and proper temps are achieved, why do we need to provide a beam of light?
This MIGHT be an idea that I test myself.
If necessary, a full spectrum t5 fluorescent can be used alongside the uvb bulb to provide extra light, and a better lighting spectrum.

The only real negative I can see with this setup as opposed to another setup I wanted to try, was the tank will have a kelvin rating of around 5-6k the whole day. With a basking bulb setup you can mimic sunrise and sunset Kelvin levels. Although, I suppose this could also be achieved with adding in a low wattage LED to mimic the warmer kelvin levels during early and late day.

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Re: Is a bright light required over the basking surface?

Postby CooperDragon » Fri Aug 02, 2019 10:19 am

I think of the basking area as what the sunlight is doing when they are out on a rock or post or grape vine. It is bright and intense and hot and they'll sit there exposed for a while (at different times of the day) so the goal is to try and replicate that. I don't know that we have lighting (yet) that can simulate the broad range of wavelengths emitted over those basking areas. They certainly include infrared so including one of the heat projectors could be useful. If the other wavelengths are included somehow then it might be a suitable alternative. I think part of it is a matter of space. We can only afford so much space for lighting equipment in our relatively tiny enclosures. I still hold out hope for metal halide bulbs but haven't seen one with a wide beam yet. Using a combination of LED with a good IR source might work too as you're saying, but I'm not convinced that LED technology is there yet. We can certainly get some visible wavelengths closer to sunlight, but do they produce a consistent spread? There has been some discussion on this in the past, I'll try to dig up the old threads.
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Re: Is a bright light required over the basking surface?

Postby Claudiusx » Fri Aug 02, 2019 10:30 am

CooperDragon wrote:I think of the basking area as what the sunlight is doing when they are out on a rock or post or grape vine. It is bright and intense and hot and they'll sit there exposed for a while (at different times of the day) so the goal is to try and replicate that.


I think that's where I'm thinking differently than you. Only in the sense that if they were out and exposed, there really isn't a beam of heat on them, it is all encompassing. Anywhere they go is going to be heat and light assuming they are exposed to the sun. No beams really to speak of in the comparison to what the basking bulbs provide.

The only thing that these bulbs seem not to provide that regular basking bulbs do, is wavelengths between maybe 380~-780~nm. But, this isn't an issue as the uvb bulb is providing these wavelengths throughout the tank already, including lower wavelengths.

So I guess my question is, what is the basking light providing besides heat. Visible light isn't really a necessity since the uvb bulb is providing that throughout the tank? And I don't believe the dragon needs a beam of light to know where it should go to get warmth. But, I don't know that for sure.

I do feel that it is a safe enough experiment to try out, and I am contemplating doing so. But, I think if we can get more discussion and research done on it too, that would be great. Those old threads would be good to read to see what has been brought up.

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Re: Is a bright light required over the basking surface?

Postby CooperDragon » Fri Aug 02, 2019 10:37 am

I moved some of the threads over to the new section so they are more visible. As far as a beam goes, if you watch a dragon out in the sunlight, if they're basking they tend to pancake out and tilt their body so their back is facing the sun. They do the same thing when following sunlight through a window. Since they flatten and turn to face the source of the light and heat (sun in this case) this mirrors what we see when they are basking under a lamp. When I have my portable lamps out around the house, all of my guys have returned to them and either sat right under them or sat off to the side and tilted their flattened body towards it. The all encompassing aspect of the sunlight makes sense to me in that no mater where they move horizontally, they get the same exposure to the sun from the same direction. That's where (Fran's) thought of providing a beam wide enough to provide for even basking is a good translation to our small enclosures. If they have a basking area that provides UVB and heat at a relatively even level along the length of their whole body, it's closer to what the sun provides in that regard. As far as how we provide this, that's certainly still a work in progress since the ultimate goal is to imitate sunlight. I think we have something that works now, but still a long way to go.
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Re: Is a bright light required over the basking surface?

Postby Claudiusx » Fri Aug 02, 2019 10:49 am

CooperDragon wrote:As far as a beam goes, if you watch a dragon out in the sunlight, if they're basking they tend to pancake out and tilt their body so their back is facing the sun. They do the same thing when following sunlight through a window. Since they flatten and turn to face the source of the light and heat (sun in this case) this mirrors what we see when they are basking under a lamp.

Oh I agree with you in that aspect. But where I don't completely agree (and I haven't made my mind up for one way or the other, I'm on the fence) are they pancaking out to absorb the heat because they know that the light and heat is coming from that direction, or do they do it because they know the heat is coming from that direction, and the light is just a part of that.

Lots of easy little experiments that can show this one way or another.

Put a light beam angled downwards and to the right on a basking surface, and put one of these bulbs opposite. Downwards angled and to the left. I really don't know which side they would favor. Would they face towards the light thinking thats where the heat is coming from. Or would they actually sense the heat and face towards it, despite the direction of the light.

I think I will be buying the bulb for sure, just because I keep coming up with lots of little experiments to try out!

CooperDragon wrote:That's where (Fran's) thought of providing a beam wide enough to provide for even basking is a good translation to our small enclosures.


Yes but I believe the goal still is to be providing the beam of heat, not necessarily the light. I guess this is complicated enough to ask her thoughts on it lol. I'll see what she says or ask if she perhaps would be willing to come here and post herself. I think it's an interesting enough topic that she'd appreciate the discussion.
CooperDragon wrote:the ultimate goal is to imitate sunlight.

I 100% agree with you.

I love these types of discussions! Gets the thoughts and ideas rolling! :mrgreen:

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Re: Is a bright light required over the basking surface?

Postby Claudiusx » Fri Aug 02, 2019 10:54 am

I guess my reasoning behind all this is, if the uvb bulb is supposed to be mimicking the sun already, and the basking bulb is mainly supposed to be providing heat, would it not make sense that you could use a bulb such as the megaray or the arcadia bulb and even angle it in the same direction the uvb is aimed. This would provide the beam of heat, and also the beams of light and uv light towards the basking surface.

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Re: Is a bright light required over the basking surface?

Postby CooperDragon » Fri Aug 02, 2019 10:58 am

It's possible they are just going after a single component such as IR. I've just thought of it as a single package made up of "required" components. I wish we could just ask them :lol: Interesting to see if they follow IR the same way they do with basking and sunlight. I'm not sure if just UVB will do the job since it leaves out so much of the visible spectrum. I'm just not sure which parts they require. I know which parts can be harmful, but don't want to leave anything out that might be needed.
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Re: Is a bright light required over the basking surface?

Postby Claudiusx » Fri Aug 02, 2019 11:04 am

Oh things would be so much simpler, but arguably not as fun! :mrgreen:

CooperDragon wrote:I'm not sure if just UVB will do the job since it leaves out so much of the visible spectrum.

I believe the uvb bulbs do provide much if not all of the visible spectrum. I could be wrong I guess since I always just assumed that they do since they put off visible light. Do we have data available on that?

If so, the full spectrum tube alongside it would hopefully make up for that deficiency.

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Re: Is a bright light required over the basking surface?

Postby CooperDragon » Fri Aug 02, 2019 11:10 am

Here's what a T5 ReptiSun 10.0 looks like according to one of Fran's old reports.

[Click image to enlarge]


Just looking at the light from my Arcadia, while it's bright, it's not quite the hue or the intensity of the sunlight outside. Some components seem to be visibly missing. Same thing with the MVBs. While the T5 light appears blueish to me, the Megaray light looks greenish when compared to sunlight (just looking at them side by side).
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Re: Is a bright light required over the basking surface?

Postby Claudiusx » Fri Aug 02, 2019 11:19 am

Awesome thanks for that!

I wonder how the full spectrum or grow lights compare.
Additionally, I wonder how basking bulbs and household bulbs compare. Do they compliment the uvb like my rice and beans analogy? LOL!

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Re: Is a bright light required over the basking surface?

Postby Claudiusx » Fri Aug 02, 2019 11:24 am

Oops, just saw what I was looking for in the threads you moved over.

EDIT: Ok that full spectrum lighting thread is a gold mine. Talk about saving me hours of searching this stuff up! Now i'm going to have to reconsider my plan moving forward.... lets see what I come up with.

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Re: Is a bright light required over the basking surface?

Postby kingofnobbys » Sat Aug 03, 2019 8:16 am

I refer you the physics of solar light as succinctly explained in the following physics URL
https://www.cv.nrao.edu/course/astr534/Brightness.html


Essentially the sun is far enough away for the light coming from (IR, Vis, UV etc) is considered to be arriving at the earth's surface in parallel "rays".
The sun is considered a nearly ideal blackbody emitter with temperature 5800 K.
Gs = 1353 W / sq.m .
The latitude and time of year effect the "view factor" of the total solar flux .Radiation heat transfer to surfaces depends on the orientation of the surfaces relative to source as well as their radiation properties and temperatures. View factor (or shape factor) is a purely geometrical parameter that accounts for the effects of orientation on radiation .

ideally the basking globe will mimic the combined visible and IR flux of the sun in the natural range of the reptile.

It's been observed that reptiles in the wild will position themselves to bask with their backs to the sun hence they are aware of the position of the sun in the sky , they also respond similarly to basking globes that produce visible light.
It's the flux of the light ( Vis and IR wavelengths) that is being detecting with their parietal eye in the diurnal lizards. The parietal eye is photoreceptive and is associated with the pineal gland, regulating circadian rhythmicity and hormone production for thermoregulation.
Last edited by kingofnobbys on Sat Aug 03, 2019 8:50 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Is a bright light required over the basking surface?

Postby Claudiusx » Sat Aug 03, 2019 8:25 am

I have no clue what that link you posted has to do with this discussion. If you care to elaborate, feel free.

kingofnobbys wrote:It's been observed that reptiles in the wild will position themselves to bask with their backs to the sun hence they are aware of the position of the sun in the sky , they also respond similarly to basking globes that produce visible light.

Yes thats what we were discussing. Are they positioning themselves towards to sun because of the light coming from that direction, or the heat. Or, are they simply facing away from it because who wants to stare at the sun.
It would be easy enough to test I just don't have a CHE or a non light emitting heat bulb right now.

The goal is to mimic natural sunlight. The purpose of this thread is the question, does a basking bulb have to fulfill that requirement, or can general lighting in the tank do that instead.

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Re: Is a bright light required over the basking surface?

Postby kingofnobbys » Sat Aug 03, 2019 8:53 am

claudiusx wrote:I have no clue what that link you posted has to do with this discussion. If you care to elaborate, feel free.

kingofnobbys wrote:It's been observed that reptiles in the wild will position themselves to bask with their backs to the sun hence they are aware of the position of the sun in the sky , they also respond similarly to basking globes that produce visible light.

Yes thats what we were discussing. Are they positioning themselves towards to sun because of the light coming from that direction, or the heat. Or, are they simply facing away from it because who wants to stare at the sun.
It would be easy enough to test I just don't have a CHE or a non light emitting heat bulb right now.

The goal is to mimic natural sunlight. The purpose of this thread is the question, does a basking bulb have to fulfill that requirement, or can general lighting in the tank do that instead.

-Brandon


They position themselves so the parietal eye is facing towards the source of light and IR flux.
Last edited by kingofnobbys on Sun Aug 04, 2019 8:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.
CBDs: Cleopatra & Caesar born 28Jan19.
Puff (RIP 10Dec15),Rex (RIP 16Mar17),Toothless (RIP 26Nov17).Peppa (RIP 22Mar19).
EBTSs : George & Mildred (born july 2010).
EWSs : , Fluffy (F) rescued injured by lawnwacker 14Nov17, Gutzy (F) rescued 27Sep19 - RIP 3Aug20 (est 12 yo), Wriggles (F) - injured rescue, over 8 yrs old, RIP 2Feb16 old age. Lucky juvenile (M) - cat attack rescue (lost r-eye, broken r-lower jaw), fatal SI RIP 21Jul2010.
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Re: Is a bright light required over the basking surface?

Postby Claudiusx » Sat Aug 03, 2019 8:58 am

That would answer the question completely if you could provide a source for that statement. A source that explicitly states they do that or tested whether this is true. It's still going to be an experiment I do myself since it's relatively easy to setup and reproduce. But if there gas already been tests and experiments done it would be good to see.

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