Dubia Roaches

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Hi everyone,

In 6 weeks we will be the proud owners of a baby bearded dragon and quite frankly, cannot wait.

During the past couple of weeks I have been doing my research and looked at a multitude of food. Veggies and greens is pretty much self explanatory but insects is a whole mine field.

From what I can gather, dubia roaches appear to be the best feeders lb for lb nutritionally. The only advantage that I can see feeding crickets is that they are readily available from most stores... That's pretty much it. So, dubia's, I have decided to create my own colony as I will know how they have been raised and what they have been fed. Also over time it will save a pretty fortune and may even make a couple of quid "IF" everything goes well. My set up consists of a KIS Flexistore 106L tub (735 x 445 x 460) with a secure lid drilled with 4 x 75mm holes (for now, I can add more later if humidity gets to high) with stainless steel mozi mesh to stop anything undesirable getting in. This is sat on a heat mat with a mini stat. I've got this loaded with upright egg cartons and room for food and water crystals. I have no idea how many this tub will comfortably hold, if anyone can hazard me a guess I would be most grateful. Other than that, I think I have the set up pretty much nailed. The set up is in my large shed (more of a cabin as I built it myself) which is double skinned and insulated but unheated, therefore I have built I wooden cupboard to retain the heat from the heat mat which will give me enough room for air circulation and an additional small 9L tub for sorting feeders for easy picking when necessary. When the feeders get too large they can be dumped back in the colony.

Now here is my dilemma and although I have read as much info out there till I'm blue in the face :study: there is a LOT of conflicting info. Feeding the roaches.... Bear in mind I am a beginner and want to get things right from the start and if anything I say is wrong :oops: please flag me on it... Anyway, here goes... From my studies, it seems that rearing healthy roaches on good nutritious food from the outset is the way to go rather than relying on gut loading. I don't see the point in gut loading as I imagine the guts are pretty minuscule and will never really be of additional benefit than if the roaches are fed on a balanced diet throughout there life. One thing I will do in the feeder tub is reduce protein levels to reduce any uric acid build up in the roaches, replacing their diet with fruit and veggies for added vitamins and minerals (sounds like gut loading I know, but what a rubbish term). I have read a very good case study and led to believe that roaches thrive best on about 25% protein. So, I have decided to put the breeders on a mainly dry diet with water gel with occasional fruit and veggies. The diet I am thinking of is quite simple, layers pellets (around 16% protein), Oats along with fish flakes to increase the protein to (with a finger in the air) about 25% overall. The ingredients also include reasonable levels of fats, oils, fibre and ash. Dusting, goes without saying. So that's what I've concluded :? however if anyone can offer any additional advice or if if there's something not quite right I would love to hear from you.

As we will have our little dragon for (hopefully) a good 10 years or more I see this venture will certainly benefit both us financially and our dragon nutritionally :D

Anyway, sorry for wittering on and thanks for reading. Looking forward to your responses and thank you for your time if you do so.
 

CooperDragon

BD.org Sicko
Staff member
Moderator
I switched to roaches a couple of years ago and haven't looked back. SO much hardier and easier to keep than crickets. My 20g long tank holds well over 1000 roaches so your bin should be able to hold more than that easily. I feed them mostly scraps of veges and occasionally throw in slices of bread or fistfuls of superworm chow which they seem to love. Bits of squash are very popular with them. They really aren't too picky. I like using this guide as a general reference for their care http://www.southtexasdragons.com/dubia-roaches.html Once you have everything up and running they're pretty hands off aside from keeping their food fresh.
 

fishtycuffs

Member
Original Poster
Thank you for your reply cooperdragon, your response is somewhat reassuring. I have had a quick peek at the link and it looks full of useful info, I'll have a good read later.

I'm just waiting for a couple of bits n pieces before I order my roaches, it should be by the end of this week. I don't think I will have nymphs in time for my dragon when I get it but I can certainly be on the way (fingers crossed).

I've also been looking online for roaches but if yourself or anyone on here local(ish) to st.helens has plenty of spare roaches, maybe a deal could be made...
 

CooperDragon

BD.org Sicko
Staff member
Moderator
I ordered a mix pack (no adults) with about 600 roaches from ABDragons and let them be. They grew and started producing a new generation about 4-5 months later and have been thriving since. If you need the colony to establish more quickly I'd order some adults too (they are more expensive).
 

quyllur

Hatchling Member
My understanding is the maximum protein for dubias should be about 16%.

I use a 14% rabbit pelleted feed (alfalfa based) and mix in some oats and some dry beardie pellets here and there. I don't both with water gel as I don't like the idea of whatever chemicals go into making them, plus fresh fruit and veggie scraps are so easy, that the water gel is superfluous.
 

fishtycuffs

Member
Original Poster
Thank you for your reply quyllur.

I was looking at rabbit food today in the pet store funnily enough. I've read that roaches are self regulating as far as eating what nutrients they need, therefore my intention is to offer the feed in whole form rather than powder form, besides Mrs would kill me putting pet food into our blender :angry5:

I've read about people giving their roaches cat and dog food which can be over loaded with protein so I'm trying to find a happy medium. Your figure of 16% certainly falls into what I was thinking about lower doses of protein.

As for gel crystals, my intention is to go along with them in my breeder bin but switch to pure fruit n veg in my feeder bin. I know that there will be a cross over where I'm picking out roaches that have only just been moved but there's pro's and cons for using gel and it seems to be a well used product. Its early days though, I may well change my mind. I value your feed back and thank you again for your reply.
 

quyllur

Hatchling Member
I should clarify, I feed the pellets whole. They are hard but the roaches (and super worms that also get them) have no problems. I also would be in for it if I blended animal food in our blender!
 

Taffer

Hatchling Member
I'm late to the discussion, but I saw a website belonging to a company that was at the time trying to make a roach chow and they had several Dubia roach breeders doing testing for them. They were given a batch of test roach chow at 20% protein and that is ALL the roaches were given besides water. At 20%, the protein was high enough to kill most of the roaches, which I confirmed after speaking to a professor at a university that has been posting research papers on roaches since 1966. Roaches can survive just fine on 4% protein, both nymphs and adults, and be perfectly healthy. That may not be the optimal amount for growth & reproduction, but I just wanted to toss that out there to think about. The people doing the tests found that just by letting the food run out and not feeding them for 12 hours or so was enough to drastically reduce the number of deaths. When the roaches were given a variety of food besides just the 20% protein, that varied their diets and allowed them to also eat lower protein foods, the mortality rate dropped back to normal levels. In nature, roaches have evolved to where they can eat decaying meat one day and pack on the protein and excess as uric acid, then when the meat is gone and they are forging on other debris and they need protein, their bodies just convert the excess uric acid back to protein. Very awesome little trick I wish humans could do. So a steady diet of only 20% protein can be unhealthy or deadly for roaches. I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm just parroting information I read on a website of a company that in the past was trying to develop a roach chow, and information I was given by a professor/biochemist that has studied and posted research papers since 1966. So if you're feeding only a 20% or higher protein to your roaches, make sure to toss in some fruits and veggies too.

I personally have two foods I give as a standard, the left over Fluker Farms high calcium cricket chow which is (I think) ~20% protein, and the Lugarti's Premium Dubia Diet, which is 13% protein. I also toss in leftovers as well as oranges, avocados, potatoes, and what seems to be the favorite of all, bell peppers. I don't know why but my Dubia really love bell peppers. I can't blame them, they are pretty good! But roaches have evolved into surviving and being healthy eating pretty much any old crap they can get their mouths on, so the stuff we feed them is like a 5 star restaurant with fresh farm quality foods.

Question...how many of you really take good care of what you feed your Dubia roaches and your bearded dragons?

Next question...how many of you put that much effort into the quality of food YOU each and every day?

For most of us, that's a pretty sad set of questions. :lol:
 

CooperDragon

BD.org Sicko
Staff member
Moderator
My roaches and dragon both eat much healthier food than I do :oops: I should probably add a bit more protein to their diet though. They eat veg scraps mainly. Occasionally they get some orange slices or some superworm chow/bedding which they like a lot. Sometimes some bread or a pita which they also like. They seem to LOVE squash so I give them half a squash when it gets down to that from feeding Darwin. They get a variety of leftover greens as well. They seem to be doing pretty well on that but I haven't tested anything. Just observing the colony health over a few years.
 

fishtycuffs

Member
Original Poster
Hi,

My colony has been up and running for over 6 months now and is thriving. My roach diet is made up of rabbit food, oats and a small amount of fish food. This is in there for when I forget to feed them fresh food and if they need the added protein and other goodness, I always have fresh veggies and fruit in for health and most importantly hydration. Anything from greens, apples. Butternut squash, carrots, oranges, potato peal, pretty much anything really.

One thing I will give you the heads up on though is you will need more vent holes. My setup is very similar to yours (4x 75mm holes on the top) and got moisture buildup in the corners. I made another 4 x 75mm holes in the sides near the bottom which encourages air flow - problem was solved.

The other thing you will need is sorting buckets, simple stacked buckets with the top one having 8mm holes drilled in the bottom of it will do the trick. Tip all the roaches in and let them sort themselves out. Oh, and bearded dragons are hungry little darlings. Don't be surprised if you do need to supplement with other live food from the pet store. At 12 inches they will easily hammer down 90 baby roaches in a day.

I have a colony of a few thousand and as they are in the shed they have slowed down on reproduction during the colder weather. They are on heat mats but even then the temp will drop to around 70 degrees. Optimum for breeding is about 95 degrees.

I know my roaches are doing well as they are twice the size of the adult roaches sold in pet shops but like you, was a noob 6-8 months ago. I don't profess to be any kind of expert but things are going well.

Good luck in your venture
 

Rankins

Gray-bearded Member
Taffer has done a bunch of research on this topic. With his research and some of my own I made up 200 lbs of roach chow recently. If the rabbit food your feeding your roaches has calcium or vitamins added to it, it probably isn't good for your roaches. Calcium can actually be harmful to them...
I would recommend looking for our other dubia thread...it has over 170 posts associated to it. I'm short on time right now but will try to add more later.
My orange head roach bin:
[ximg]85426 6064186790[/ximg][ximg]85426 8025580584[/ximg][ximg]85426 1741029090[/ximg]
 

Taterbug

BD.org Addict
Dietary self selection is in the benifit of the insects not necissarily the pet you feed them too - for example uric acid accumulation is a good thing to an extent for the roaches but bad for you dragon. It is not studied in B. dubia either - how quickly this is processed out is unclear for feeder roaches so generally I stick with a low protein diet.

There are plenty of studies showing the effect of gutloading on nutrient chemistry - it can even be an alternative to supplement dusts when applied in a specific way. There is also some speculation that the digestive process of the insects (enzymes bacteria and such) has trickle down effect to the animals that eat them.

I am not comfortable using gel crystals anymore. Depending on the manufacturing process and how they are stored they can contain neurotoxic arcylamide which I don't really want in my food chain.
 

Taffer

Hatchling Member
Rankins":1in4fdz2 said:
Taffer has done a bunch of research on this topic.
Thanks buddy!
With his research and some of my own I made up 200 lbs of roach chow recently. If the rabbit food your feeding your roaches has calcium or vitamins added to it, it probably isn't good for your roaches. Calcium can actually be harmful to them...
Thanks again...I didn't know that about calcium. The leftover cricket food I used was high in calcium. I'll whittle that out of their diet.

I would recommend looking for our other dubia thread...it has over 170 posts associated to it. I'm short on time right now but will try to add more later.
Dang it Rankins...until you said that, I THOUGHT I was in that other thread...same name. The other thread has like 12 pages of tons of stuff from diet to bin set up, heating sources, lots of great info from that biochemist etc.

Fishtycuffs, there is protein in the plants you're feeding your Dubia as well, and according to the biochemist, protein is protein, no matter the source. I don't know how much protein is in what you are feeding off the top of my head, but as long as it is over 4%, that's enough for roaches to thrive. I don't have any studies saying if higher amounts of protein will increase growth rates or reproduction, but if you need to add protein, it is probably a minimal amount.

Quyllur, I bought a small 3 pound bag of alfalfa plugs, pressed alfalfa...it's too compact for my Dubia. I have a plug that has been in there for a few months. When I take a piece and put a little water on it, it decompresses and the Dubia eat it. It just cracks me up that it is pressed so firm they can't eat it. :lol:

CooperDragon, I too eat food not as healthy as my roaches or dragon, but my wife is going to start us on the "Whole 30" soon which is supposed to be a great cleanse/reset, and once you're done you add one item that you love back into the diet and see if it has a negative impact. If it does, you know to remove it from the diet. If I do this and peanut butter makes me feel bad, (shaking my head), I may end up suicidal (just kidding). My wife jokes me because I put peanut butter on almost everything. I'd wager your roaches are probably getting enough protein too, or really close, with the same caveats as I said above.

Oh, Fishy, I have buckets, I just haven't had my Dubia long enough to have to sort them out yet. I'm guessing once my 2nd breeder colony starts to produce nymphs, I'll put the two together into a single bin and start sorting, but my BD won't eat the small nymphs. I ordered some nymphs and they were smaller than I thought I was ordering. I'll go back and double check what I ordered, but what I was shipped were baby nymphs, maybe a week old tops. 500 of them could easily fit on one side of 1/4 piece of egg crate. Looks like I'll have to grow them several weeks before I can feed them.

You all may be interested in this - a combo thermometer/hygrometer with LED readout. The temp reads in Celsius but who cares, it cost $2 and $1 shipping, and although it says it does not come with batteries, both of mine did. I tied both of the sensors together and the hygrometers stayed within 1% of each other, and the temperature sensors stayed (usually) about 0.5 degrees Celsius apart (withing parameters), but accurate enough to check your monitor from the outside with the sensor on the inside.

Ignore the low rating...the 1 start is because the ***** didn't read and see it only reads in Celsius, and because it didn't come with instructions. The % is for the humidity, and the temperature is with the degrees Celsius...pretty simple. If the LED stops working, replace the battery. Second review complained it only read in Celcius (again, didn't read), and complained he couldn't read it across the room..duh, the dimensions are listed too. Sorry for the gripe, but it burns me when people give low ratings because they didn't read the product details.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01IBK3Y76/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o05_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1
 

Rankins

Gray-bearded Member
Haha...Taffer your the only person I know of that has done more research on roaches than me!! It's funny how certain parts of reptile keeping captivates our attention and we fixate on it. I'm always building crazy contraptions to aid in my reptile husbandry....and your an entomologist now ;)
I gotta give credit to Taterbug...I'm pretty sure she is the one that let me know calcium can be harmful to the roaches. I steal info from everyone...but I won't take credit for all of it ;)
 

fishtycuffs

Member
Original Poster
Thanks for the heads up in the calcium, I checked out the nutritional info on the rabbit food and it does contain calcium. I'll have to revisit the thread you spoke about and come up with another concoction for my roaches.

I probably haven't seen any real effects from the added calcium etc due to the fact I usually have fresh food in with them and they devour it before anything else.

Like I said, I'm just a noob muddling along but it's info and help on here that makes all of us that give a dam about our beardies, better owners.
 
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