Alfalfa Gut Load

Several months ago I mentioned this in a gout related thread. Food items that are fed alfalfa meal are great for your reptiles. I don't feed my adult Rankins many insects. Their diet consists mainly of calcium rich greens. Too much insect protein can lead to gout issues. Purines break down to form uric acid crystals in joints and organs. Plant proteins do not cause these problems. However alfalfa is great for relieving and preventing gout and is high in protein. I feed my crickets damp alfalfa meal, it allows me to avoid giving them some form of water. They readily eat it...and its healthy for them. I even sprinkle the alfalfa meal on the rankins greens.
Just an FYI

Do you have some info about it as treatment/prevention of gout?

Here's the short version:
Diets high in purines (animal proteins) can cause a condition call hyperuricemia (fancy word for high blood uric acid levels). The crystals that precipitate out into joints and viscera are called monosodium urate crystals. Articular gout pertains to joints, viseral gout obviously pertains to the viscera. When blood serum uric acid concentration are too high, it increases the chance for both types of gout. Some uric acid gets excreted through urination, however if the kidneys can't excrete it effecient enough or if the kidneys can't handle the volume of urates, it raises blood uric acid levels.
The primary way (I believe there were some secondary mechanism's of action...I just don't remember and don't feel like looking it up) alfalfa works is it changes the bloods pH (potential for hydrogen) value, and is measured on a scale ranging between 1-14. 1 is acidic 14 is alkaline.....
So it raises the blood pH making it more alkaline (or base...its a higher number...remember 1 is acidic, 14 is alkaline). Alkalinity helps keep the uric acid in solution (blood serum). Obviously if it doesn't precipitate out and stays in solution, it makes it easier for the kidneys to excrete.

I don't have a scale to tell you where the blood uric acid levels would be with use of alfalfa..it depends on how much alfalfa and purines eaten (I'm just making an educated guess on that...but its a reasonable assumption). But since alfalfa causes the blood pH to be more alkaline and urates stay in solution, it helps flush the blood/joint/organs of uric acid crystals via the kidneys. Thus it works as a treatment and preventative measure.

It has a lot of benefits (many, many, many more than just gout)...it also helps prevent kidney uric acid stones (they can cause kidney failure) and bladder stones if they are uric acid stones. Since it helps flush the blood of uric acid, the kidneys don't store it as monosodium urate stones as easy.

If you know your dragon has gout or kidney failure, minimal amount of insect protiens (purines) should be fed. Basically the kidney care diet and gout diet are very similar. So if you want to study it in deeper detail I would suggest looking in a human health care book. Mosby's manual is very detailed and covers a vast amount of info that can be pertinent towards reptile care. Its fairly easy to understand if you have a chemistry or health care background.

Kidney and bladder stones can also be comprised of calcium from high blood serum calcium levels (hypercalciemia), but its more likely to be uric acid stones in reptiles.
I'm unsure if alfalfa helps with calcium stones, (I'm to lazy to look that up right now...but its doubtful) its not pertinent to this discussion anyway.

The best part about alfalfa is its a high protein plant (which doesn't raise uric acid levels..no purines) and it helps prevent gout from a high purine diet.

Now time for my opinion based on valid facts. Adult dragons don't need much insect protein and it can cause more health issues (in larger amounts) than they are worth. But alfalfa is high in protien...so I feel it is a good choice to make. Besides live feeders are expensive. So why cause potential health problems and spend a lot of money on large volumes of bugs?
Some insect protein is fine...but too much isn't. Young dragons need a higher protein diet due to growth and development...but should be gradually weaned off so many insects as they grow.

There are always posts on here about adult dragons with gout...its totally preventable unless the dragon has a metabolic issue. People have spent a bunch of money on vet visits and allopurinal to clear a gout and kidney issues related to high protein diets. Worst of all the diet isn't totally healthy for the dragon.

I don't expect anyone to take what I say as gospel, nor do I want anyone to. I encourage everyone to do their own research on anything they are interested in and formulate their own opinions. But my info is usually well thought out....

Mellisa Kaplin and I had a similar protein discussion about 25 years ago. It was related to iguanas....but she added much of the protein related issues we discussed on her care sheets. She's very knowledgeable and has done a bunch of research on iguanas, water dragons, and bearded dragons. Her info is usually easy to find by doing a name search. I highly recommend doing that. I wasn't aware of the use of alfalfa back then or I would have mentioned it. I have found stuff I posted from 25 years ago still floating around the net...some I wish would disappear

Katherine Tosney also has a bunch of my info on her bearded dragon care pages also. I think most of it had to do with false gravidity and egg binding though. Again, that was about 25 years ago, so long ago I almost forgot about it. Highly recommended for awesome dragon info.

Sorry this is a lot of typing and I'm trying to remember all my chemistry and nursing garbage. This is just the basic version

This will give you a good start. You'll find the rest if interested I'm sure.....
If through your research you find that any of the info provided is inaccurate please let me know.

Forgot to mention something, so fit this into the post somewhere A purine molocule is rather large and renal tubuals are small. So the molocule can plug up the renal tubuals and cause renal failure. This is especially true if the animal is dehydrated. Animals with gout should also stay very well hydrated to help flush the uric acid.

Happy studying

(Edited a million times to fix typos and correct my disjointed thought process)

http://www.anapsid.org/

http://www.bio.miami.edu/tosney/file/BDcare.html


MK has a good site, just wish she updated more. I have heard about the benefits of alfalfa meal but never really investigated.

Thanks for adding links...I'm not good with computers and don't know how to do it.
Yeah, I'm not even sure if Mellisa is still doing anything with reptiles any more. Her site was the "go to" guide for many, many years. I haven't check her stuff out in a long time. I don't even remember all what I helped add to her site....I think a lot of it was about breeding iguanas and some diet stuff. (Edit: I remember now what MK and I discussed!! It revolved around people feeding iguanas "monkey biscuits"...bad idea!!) But I haven't bred iguanas in about 25 years...nor would I ever again.
(Edit...again!! I think I'm getting mixed up between what MK, Katherine and I discussed....but I'm doing my best. I am almost positive Katherine added some diet stuff also, I know she did put something about silicosis from using construction sand) It was a long time ago, and I'm getting old...its easy for me to be confused

(Just edited out an irrelevant photo)

This thread is very old but I figured out something new.
I have been feeding my ivory head, orange head, and dubias a diet that consisted of mainly alfalfa, ground up birdseed, and some pellet bird food. I grind everything up and feed it wet with orange juice. Basically its like thick oatmeal. But as my orange head colony has gotten rather large I'm getting a strong smell of ammonia. I totally cleaned out the bin Twice and it cleared up the smell for a few hrs.
I even mounted a 80 cfm fan inside the bin. The smell is still there when the humidistat shuts the fan off. Yes, my roach bin is very high tech. I have posted pictures of it in the past...but its even more improved since then.
The only thing I can attribute to the smell is the diet. Apparently since the nitrogen content of alfalfa is pretty high it converts to ammonia...
Needless to say I stopped giving them alfalfa....its a shame because they love it. Its also cheap and extremely healthy for gut loading.
So switched the diet yesterday to wheat bran, ground up birdseed, pea powder, garbonzo bean powder, orange powder, and some pellet bird food. The reason for the garbonzos was because its really cheap...4 lbs $15. Hopefully the ammonia levels will drop...it can't be good for the colony.
BTW Ivory head roaches are awsome!! I'm getting adults molting out now and they are already a favorite. They are pretty expensive and hard to find.
Sorry, long post...just haven't been around much

This is the determination on the ammonia problem possibly being related to alfalfa. It was the cause of the ammonia buildup in the bin. I was feeding 50% or more of alfalfa. Within two days of cutting them off from the alfalfa the bin odor vanished. I still think alfalfa is healthy in the right amounts...but I'm not going to experiment right now. The dang roaches eat better than me.
I still dust it on the Rankins greens because its really healthy for them. At least 50 lbs of alfalfa meal still has a use. I can feed the rest to my plants, alfalfa has a natural plant hormone called tricontinol in it. Your plants grow like crazy if you foliar feed or root drench. Don't do it very often....your plants will grow deformed

Rankins":kwltdbsd said:

Several months ago I mentioned this in a gout related thread. Food items that are fed alfalfa meal are great for your reptiles. I don't feed my adult Rankins many insects. Their diet consists mainly of calcium rich greens. Too much insect protein can lead to gout issues. Purines break down to form uric acid crystals in joints and organs. Plant proteins do not cause these problems. However alfalfa is great for relieving and preventing gout and is high in protein. I feed my crickets damp alfalfa meal, it allows me to avoid giving them some form of water. They readily eat it...and its healthy for them. I even sprinkle the alfalfa meal on the rankins greens.
Just an FYI

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Thank you so much for this info. My beardies are 7 months old. One is healthy (270 grams) and the other is 60 grams.
She has articular gout and adenovirus. I'm getting so much conflicting info between websites and my vet. The vet says to not limit her insects but I thought I should. She hasn't had an insects in 3 weeks though because she doesn't eat on her own anymore. I have to syringe-feed her carnivore critical care which contains chicken and egg white. What are your thoughts on that kind of protein? I have already ordered alfalfa powder, serrapeptase, and black cherry powder so I'll definitely be feeding her those as well. I also have Repashy bugpie to try. She's been on allopurinol for 20 days so far and I'm just now starting to see her move her limbs slightly on her own and they feel less stiff. Her one elbow still has a big "knot" (uric acid crystal?) though. My poor little baby.

I'm glad you mentioned the alfalfa and dubias. I was going to fill my dubia colony up with alfalfa so I'll make sure not to do that or atleast not go overboard.

MommyOfDragons":36kxecnj said:

Rankins":36kxecnj said:

Several months ago I mentioned this in a gout related thread. Food items that are fed alfalfa meal are great for your reptiles. I don't feed my adult Rankins many insects. Their diet consists mainly of calcium rich greens. Too much insect protein can lead to gout issues. Purines break down to form uric acid crystals in joints and organs. Plant proteins do not cause these problems. However alfalfa is great for relieving and preventing gout and is high in protein. I feed my crickets damp alfalfa meal, it allows me to avoid giving them some form of water. They readily eat it...and its healthy for them. I even sprinkle the alfalfa meal on the rankins greens.
Just an FYI

Click to expand...

Thank you so much for this info. My beardies are 7 months old. One is healthy (270 grams) and the other is 60 grams.
She has articular gout and adenovirus. I'm getting so much conflicting info between websites and my vet. The vet says to not limit her insects but I thought I should. She hasn't had an insects in 3 weeks though because she doesn't eat on her own anymore. I have to syringe-feed her carnivore critical care which contains chicken and egg white. What are your thoughts on that kind of protein? I have already ordered alfalfa powder, serrapeptase, and black cherry powder so I'll definitely be feeding her those as well. I also have Repashy bugpie to try. She's been on allopurinol for 20 days so far and I'm just now starting to see her move her limbs slightly on her own and they feel less stiff. Her one elbow still has a big "knot" (uric acid crystal?) though. My poor little baby. <<< gosh she is in the wars --- poor little mite .... I don't know if the big "knot" is uric acid crystal buildup , did the vet take a small needle biopsy or something similar or do some ultrasounds or xrays of it. If could be permanent if it's a calcified buildup on an old break maybe https://www.healthgrades.com/conditions/calcification--treatments.

I'm glad you mentioned the alfalfa and dubias. I was going to fill my dubia colony up with alfalfa so I'll make sure not to do that or atleast not go overboard.

Click to expand...

Alfalfa is very low in calcium and high in phosphorus Ca/P = 1/1.2 , I'd be looking for leafy greens to gutload and feed them, something with a Ca/P > 2.0

P binds Ca , so it's helpful with insects who have a naturally low Ca/P to gutload with high Ca/P food , this has the effect of changing the overall Ca/P in the insect when used as feeders so it's closer to the optimal of 2:1 , of cause if it's higher this is better.