ADV

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Hello. I haven't been here in a while because I was busy battling pinworms and coccidia. The good news is my boy Dalí tested clean almost two months ago. I had been meaning to retest because he was acting strange but since I was told to do so in six months, I figured I'd wait. Now, I'm worried about something worse than parasites. His behavior, appetite, and health have rapidly declined. Here's what has been going on with him:

1: His appetite. Ever since I got him he had a voracious appetite. He'd chase after his food and finish it in the blink of an eye. He'd always eat his green first too. He loved food. His appetite didn't change even when he was on Ponazuril and Panacur. Lately, however, his appetite has declined. He'd eat 100 roaches at first. That then fell to about 75-80 but since it was a decent number, I wasn't too concerned. Then it went down again to about 65. Then 60. Then 50. And now he's at 20-25 if I'm lucky. He eats some greens but leaves most of them in his bowl.

I have also had to hand feed him because he doesn't chase after them or make much of an effort to catch them. Only if they're near enough will he try but if they move a little bit away, and I mean a little, he'll let them escape. In fact, I was starting to think he had trouble with his vision because he has difficulty catching his food. But I know he can see. He just isn't trying as much.

2: Constipation. He hasn't popped every day like he used to since he started the parasite meds. But I figured that was a typical side effect of those meds and that it would go back to normal eventually. Not so. It has only gotten worse. He now goes every 2-5 days. It varies each week. I've given him baths to help but it continues the same. Also, when he does go, it's just a lump. It's not well shaped though not entirely loose or diarrhea like.

3: Hiding. He constantly hides in the box platform/cave I made for him. He turns to face the corner or side and curls up there all day. He doesn't run around anymore like he used to. He also doesn't bask as much, which is worrisome. He has a hammock and ladder too so he has plenty of spaces to use for basking. He just won't much. Thankfully he does sit in the warm side of the tank and I have an Arcadia and a 100w basking bulb so he's getting the light he needs.

4: Lethargy. He doesn't run. He doesn't stand often. He doesn't walk much. If he moves, it's to find a new spot to sleep. Then he spends all day there squinting or outright sleeping. Tonight I went to pick him up and he didn't even respond to my touch or look at me like he usually does. He was so still. He let me move his arm and leg without fussing or moving. He constantly lies with his head on the floor of his cage.

5: Sad look in his eyes. He constantly closes his eyes and he looks depressed. He doesn't have that alert look he did in the beginning. I'm scared he's in pain.

6: Twitching. I've seen very slight twiching on his back toes and tip of the tail. Very slight. I probably wouldn't have noticed if I hadn't already been looking at him. He also does a head tilt sometimes but I'm not sure that that's not just what he does since he has done it before.

7: Lumps under chin. It seems there is one on either side. Honestly, I'm not sure that I'm not just panicking but his chin does look different. I will try to take pictures.

He doesn't have any other visible infections or bumps or the like that could be causing this. And he came up negative on parasites recently. I'm wondering now if this isn't the reason he got that sore on his snout I took care of a few weeks ago.

What scares me a lot aside from the fact that I can't find any other logical explanation for this is that he got to this point within the past week or two. It has been a rapid change and given that reptiles hide their weaknesses until they can't anymore, I feel awful. I keep being afraid that I'll find him dead. He just looks so sad. Today I sat there watching him and he looked me in the eye and then slowly turned around to hide his face in a corner and sleep again. It broke my heart.

I'm taking him to his vet Friday because tomorrow the vet isn't there and I don't trust any other--it's not like I have many reptile specialists around anyway. I'm doing my best to get him to continue eating even the few bites of greens and 25 roaches he has been accepting. That's better than nothing.

If he does have ADV, though, and it's this bad and he doesn't improve or get worse, does it mean it would be best to let him go? I can't stand the idea of force feeding him and the like if he's just going to be weak and miserable and will never be himself again. What kind of life would that be?

Any suggestions or comments? Thanks.
 

AHBD

BD.org Sicko
Hi Jennifer, how old is your little guy now ? Can you post a few full body shots as well as of his beard ? A beardies appetite can decline as they get older, as a matter of fact it would be very unhealthy for a near adult or adult dragon to eat over 50 insects a day. As a sub adult, they should be eating about 75 appropriate sized insects per week, not per day. As adults it's even less ! Do you use a calcium supplement ?

So how long was he on the meds., and was he taking a probiotic ? Sorry if I missed that. Taking a lot of meds. can have side effects starting during OR after they are finished, which could include lethargy and a change in their poo.

If you want to test for ADV, p.m. Tracie [ Drache613 ] She belongs to an organization that does testing for a very, very reasonable price. In the mean time, try not to think the worst.
 

Jennifer0148

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Original Poster
Hello. Yes, I use Rep-cal calcium and vitamin powders. The vitamin is twice per week and the calcium is every day. The vet told me that because he has a pretty powerful Arcadia UVB light I could use calcium powder without D3 for most days and use the one with for two or so days out of the seven days a week. But either way, he gets his vitamins and calcium.

Now, I know the ratio of insects to greens shifts, and I had been meaning to ask when that starts to happen, but I can't imagine it does so that rapidly and in the span of just several days. It's the context of the shift that worries me. All the other symptoms are not his normal self either. Today he only ate 9 roaches and a mouthful of greens and couldn't muster the energy to eat more. He then dragged himself across the enclosure to hide in his cave.

I don't know how old he is. I tied to find out by going to the Petco he was bought from (I got him as a gift) but they don't keep records because of course they don't. They don't care. I need to measure him again but I'd say 15 inches or so. I can't imagine he's more than 8 or so months at most.

He was on meds for about a month and a half total. Not every day though. He got Ponazuril for two days, then two weeks off and then another two days. The Panacur was for 5 days then two weeks off and then another five days. Then after two weeks he got another dose of that. The thing is he was 100% normal during and after the meds up until the past couple of weeks. He did get Bene Bac while on the meds and a bit after too. His last dose was at the beginning of June. I figured that if he was going to have side effects it would be soon after.

I'll try taking pictures later when I get home. It's just not looking good.
 

AHBD

BD.org Sicko
I can see why you'd be concerned, the behavior + decline in appetite coming on so suddenly. Is there any way you can post a short video of him walking across his tank ? And measure him + weigh him so you have an accurate record of his growth.

And do get the ADV test, like I said, Drache613 can do it for a very good price.
 

Jennifer0148

Member
Original Poster
Thanks. I went to the vet today and he said my boy looked healthy, except for his sad expression. He weighs 401g, too, which is a lot more than the last time I took him in a couple of months ago. So given that, he said it's quite possible it's ADV. He told me if that's the case there's not much we can do about it. He gave me Baytril in case there's some underlying infection but I'm wary of giving him that when he's already lethargic and not eating. I feel he should eat more first. He told me to syringe feed him carnivore care, which I have to find online. If he doesn't improve, though, and he has ADV, I will not keep him miserable and subject him to force feedings. I don't believe in prolonging misery.

I PMd Tracie so I can do the fecal swab and send it in, though. I do need to know.
 

Drache613

BD.org Sicko
Staff member
Moderator
Hello Jennifer,

I also PM'd you this evening, too.
The Arcadia UVB light you are using, is it the T5 high output tube bulb or the Mercury vapor bulb?
Since he is still growing & probably under 1 year then calcium 5 days per week is good. Plain calcium without D3 is fine if his lighting is strong.
It is a possibility he is having absorption issues which happens often with or without Adeno. I would recommend switching to a liquid calcium for help with absorbing calcium better. To build his immune system, you can use bee pollen, a vitamin supplement with beta carotene in it for immune support & extra oral fluids.
Are you keeping him warmer overnight, around 80 or so, for help with immune system support?

Pictures of him would be great, when you can get them up.

Tracie
 

Jennifer0148

Member
Original Poster
Hi Tracie. Thank you for your response and PM.

Yes, it's the 12% Arcadia tube light. I'll get him a liquid calcium then and feed him that along with the carnivore care. I gave him some critical care the vet gave me and he didn't dislike the gruel itself but he was not in the mood to be touched so it was quite a struggle. I'll try again tomorrow. The vitamin powder I use has beta carotene, so I assume that should be good. I just want him to eat and be his feisty self again. I love him to bits.

And I'm in CA. It's incredibly hot here right now to the point where I start dripping sweat if I stand out in the living room where he is. I think it stays around 75-80 there, so he should be good.
 

Jennifer0148

Member
Original Poster
You know, I was thinking...could he be brumating? I know as a general rule they're at least a year old and do so in fall or winter (though because they're Australian, they may do so during our spring or summer), but considering that he's healthy and eats bites of food here and there, could he be doing that at 7-9 months? If so, I would feel a lot better. But I wouldn't want to force feed him or give him Baytril then. His symptoms seem to fit. He burrows under the puppy pad in his enclosure, especially his face; he sleeps most of the day; he goes to sleep early at night; he doesn't eat much or at all; he's lethargic in general and moves around like he's sleepy; and he doesn't poop much.

As for eating, drinking, and pooping, how would I handle that? This morning I placed a dish with greens and roaches in his enclosure before I left for work and I think he ate some. I know he needs to poop but unless he goes into a deep sleep, do I just let him do this thing and poop when he's ready like he has been? Or should I remove his hide, force him to bask, and bathe him to make him poop more regularly? Do I keep offering good?
 

Drache613

BD.org Sicko
Staff member
Moderator
Hello Jennifer,

Let me know when you get the swab, it was sent out today.
Brumation is a possibility, absolutely as the symptoms fit. We have a male who every year, no matter what I do, brumates in late June to July until October or November, usually. He is on Australian time for sure.
How is he doing tonight?

Tracie
 

Jennifer0148

Member
Original Poster
Well, he hasn't eaten well at all. Since last Friday August 5, he has only had about 20 roaches and a couple of bites of greens. He won't take to the syringe feeding. My hands were raw from the scratches I got because he struggled so much to get away. He has not pooped either. He spends most of his time in his hide sleeping or looking sleepy/depressed. He has that half closed eyes look to him. Sometimes he has his arms and legs in a position as if he were going to stand but can't. Maybe he doesn't have the energy to hold himself up for too long. If he does walk around it is to find a spot to lie down. He also looks up and tilts his head a lot. I'm not sure it's brumating if he's making efforts to eat and walk but simply can't do so well or for long. I'm scared he's suffering and that I'm helping prolong it. It's hard because they hide things well and try their hardest to even when it's too much and it starts to show. Here are some pictures of him. He finally turned around and came out long enough for me to take some.

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