Terrified of Atadenovirus (Pos and Neg Breeders)

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Varalidaine

Juvie Member
I am looking to be a first time owner of a Bearded Dragon and have been looking for a month for a breeder I like. There's one close-ish to me that have tested some of their adult breeders and they have tested negative for ADV, but I don't particularly like their colors. I have found a baby that I like on Dachiu Dragons, but at the bottom of their health statement they say that they don't test for ADV "Our breeders and currently available dragons have not been tested for adenovirus. Adenovirus is believed to be present in many/most bearded dragons, including ours. For those of you who wish to test – a positive tested animal may be returned to us within 6 weeks and a refund issued for the purchase price. *We do not refund shipping fees or testing costs." I appreciate their honesty but now I feel I have a dilemma. Get a safer bet and MUCH more expensive dragon from the breeder closer or get the cheaper one I want from Dachiu. I suppose I have 2 questions.

1. Are there people out their with ADV Negative dragons, because after reading, I feel like it is everywhere!

2. What has people's experience been in dealing with Dachiu Dragons and have you tested the dragon you got from them?

Thank you for your answers. I don't even own a dragon yet and I'm already a terrified worry wort mama.
 

TerryG

Member
I don't think atadenovirus is "everywhere."

I'd read about it a little when I first got my dragon but after reading your post I looked it up again. It says that ADV positive dragons die young, usually before they are 4 months old and if they do survive they are sick all the time and develop muscle twitches.

I got a Beardie from PetCo who, as far as I know, is completely healthy. From what I've read here, pet store chains seem to be notorious for selling sub-par dragons but their main issue seems to be very curable parasites.

To me it sounds like this breeder that is saying almost all beaded dragons have ADV is a lazy, money hungry, hack that has no business breeding anything.

I'd say, don't buy from the breeder with the sick colony. There's a reason they're selling their dragons so cheap.

Maybe you will find this article helpful:
http://www.reptilesmagazine.com/Reptile-Health/Habitats-Care/Atadenovirus-This-Disease-Can-Be-Deadly-To-Your-Bearded-Dragon/
 

DaisyDragon123

Sub-Adult Member
I have no experience with that breeder but Carolina Classic Dragons in Raleigh NC is great. David Freeman is the owner and a really nice guy.
 

Varalidaine

Juvie Member
Original Poster
So upon further research, I found some documents showing Dachiu had ADV positive dragons back in 2007, and then their disclaimer and finding people on here that have had problems with dragons they got from Dachiu and on even testing positive, I think it's safe to say Dachiu is knowingly breeding and selling ADV positive dragons.

As for Carolina Classic Dragons, I had looked into them because they are by far my favorite looking dragons, so I asked if he tests for ADV. David's response was: "I no longer test. Way too many inconsistencies and unknowns about this virus. If I ever have a dragon showing any symptoms, I would test but my adult dragons haven't shown any signs of issues in several years. The biggest litmus test that I use is the health of my babies. I know breeders that lose 30%-50%+ of a clutch when infected with ADV. I am fortunate enough to have one of the best exotic veterinary clinics 10 minutes from my facility and they come out annually and inspect my operation. Avian and Exotic Animal Care owned by Dr. Dan Johnson. Dr. Dan will tell you that I take the utmost care in the husbandry of my dragons. Also, Dr. Stacy Wilkinson is one of only a dozen certified reptile vets in the world and she has also visited my facility several times."

So it's great he has top of the line care for his dragons, but he had avoided my answering whether they tested positive or negative, so I asked again and he replied: "Yes, I have owned several dragons over the years that have tested positive for it."

And then quickly sent another in defense: "and with that said... you won't find anyone that has purchased a dragon from me tell you that their dragon hasn't lived a normal, healthy life due to ADV. ADV in young babies causes a high mortality rate. Easy to see"

So. It appears he also knowingly breeds and sells ADV positive dragons.

It really bothers me that breeders would do this. I feel like ADV is the dragon version of HIV/AIDS. It may just be an immunosuppression, but why breed sub-standard dragons? Why risk losing 50% of clutch? Why bring sick dragons into the world and sell healthy looking ones, that still carry it and may yet suffer from it, to unknowing people. It's irresponsible and cruel. I understand that not much is known about it, and it doesn't have to be a death sentence, but no vet or scientist in the world would recommend breeding an ADV positive animal. If you have an ADV dragon, then give it the best life you can, but don't go breeding it and spreading a virus.

This post/topic is not meant to flame anyone, but for the life of me I could not find a place of reviews for breeders, and I think most people don't even know about ADV. I just wanted to say that at least these 2 breeders have admitted to breeding and selling ADV positive dragons. People have a right to know. I think a list should be created of breeders who have infected colonies and breeders who have clean ones.

Spice Dragons is SoCal based breeder, and they said they have tested some, but not all of their dragons, but that those tests came back negative. They also keep their babies a little longer before selling to ensure they are healthy (I noticed Dachiu's babies seem to be much younger).

So, just for everyone's info:

Carolina Classic Dragons: Positive for ADV
Dachiu: Positive for ADV
Spice Dragons: Seemingly Negative for ADV

None of this is to say that every dragon at Dachiu or CCD is infected, or that it is impossible to get a negative dragon from them. I just wanted to put the info out there so people can make their own educated decisions and take their own risks.
 

Taterbug

BD.org Addict
One of the mods on here (drache613) is a part of a group looking at ADV but I'm not sure if they have released any new information recently. I think it was them who did, at one point, have a list of breeders who'd tested their entire collections and got cleared as "negative".

Perhaps your question is rhetorical... but there is a lot in the reptile industry that is powered by money over the wellbeing of the animals. Breeders have lots and lots of money animals and years of time invested in their bloodlines - new and high end morphs can sell for thousands of dollars, even very attractive babies from established morphs or bloodlines can be hundreds of dollars. If ADV is spread easily (buy breeding, to offspring from the mother etc) and isn't assured fatal to infected dragons, exposure is risked with each new breeder added to the collection (after all testing isn't 100% accurate) and the only way to control/eliminate it is to destroy the animals and possibly the entire collection? It's an ethical mess for sure but it's not that hard to see why it happens and why breeders don't want to talk about it.

It's a sketchy industry on its good days... After all "morphs" are just exploiting a visual genetic mutation for financial gain - not much is known about invisible influences/side effects of the mutation or mutations tied to it, and it doesn't seem to matter if it looks good enough. Dragons don't have as dramatic of examples but other reptiles have some pretty brutal problems related to genetics - and those still get defended, bred and justified by breeders and owners alike. If you aren't familiar spider ball pythons and enigma leopard geckos are good examples.
 

DaisyDragon123

Sub-Adult Member
Taterbug, well said. My dragon just tested positive for atadenovirus. Vet called me yesterday to confirm positive test. I knew this virus existed but I thought, incorrectly it turned out, that by going to a private breeder I would avoid this. I too have questioned the breeding for different color morphs and patterns and the effect upon the dragon's longevity and temperment. I tried to do an online search but came up empty. My dragon is a red morph. I didn't intentionality set out to buy a color morph but thats all the private breeders are producing unless you go to Petsmart or Petco. I would rather have a healthier, longer-lived standard dragon than a color morph any day of the week.
 

Varalidaine

Juvie Member
Original Poster
I really appreciate both of your responses. Taterbug, your messaged was well composed and informative. My question did start out genuine but after much research I discovered some of my own answers and felt the need to share with others.

If anyone does have a single dragon household that tested positive fro ADV, I would love to know where you got your baby from. It would be interesting to see the results and maybe compile a more thorough list of ADV positive colonies.

Also, if you have negative dragons, I'd be interested in knowing where you got your from as well, so people can see at least what colonies may be less likely to result in an ADV positive dragon.

I realize testing is not 100% accurate, but I feel it the at least the results it gives could lead to establishing safer/vs more risky colonies.

Random side, I definitely don't agree with 'destroying' the animals, but I can understand how for large scale breeder it's either be rid of it or ignore the virus and hope everything works out.
 

Drache613

BD.org Sicko
Staff member
Moderator
Hello,

This is a good discussion, one in which I could help more with.
Adeno has been a source of frustration & disappointment for me for quite awhile now. I have been under fire for such trivial things early on when I started my research on it & got involved in guiding people to test, etc.
However, I did successfully force Diachu to place that disclaimer on their site due to enough buyers testing their dragons from them which came back positive. I have made some headway but at the moment I don't have any breeders that are all negative. Now that isn't saying that there aren't any, but none that have gone through the lab in Dallas in which I work in conjunction with for my data.
I agree, it is deplorable that breeders don't have more of a conscience when it comes to not breeding positives. Their blase attitude does bother me by saying well they all have it so why bother testing.
No, not all dragons have it & they don't just all of the sudden get it, etc. Those types of excuses are simply cop outs in my opinion & just shirking responsibility at the expense of the dragons as well as potential buyers. Most of them just don't see the value in it & as long as they don't see any problems with their health, they refuse to test because it costs them money.

I am still working on gathering data, helping people who have positive dragons, as well as others who just have general questions. I am even working on a potential cure, which is very time consuming & taking a lot of tweaking as well.

If I can help out in any way, or just answer questions, just let me know.
I have a web site here:

www.thepats.info


Thanks,

Tracie
 

Varalidaine

Juvie Member
Original Poster
Thank you so much for the reply Tracie, and I'm glad to see other people feel as outraged as myself. I've become quite passionate about all this since obtaining my dragon and am determined to find a way to help solve this problem.
 

Drache613

BD.org Sicko
Staff member
Moderator
Hello,

You are very welcome. :D
I am trying very hard to make progress with this, so as soon as I come up with some type of cure this community will be the first to know!!!
In the meantime, feel free to email me or PM me anytime, with any questions, etc that you may have. I would be happy to help in any way.

Tracie
 
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