New Beardie with Serious Coccidia and ADV Great update!

Oops! I changed the title but the update is in the last post below!!!


Hello,
Sorry in advance for the long post

I'm worried. I have a new baby Beardie. He has an approximate hatch date of 3/5/14. I received him from an online store 4/15/14. He hadn't eaten since I had him so I started feeding him a liquid diet of carnivore care with vitamin D and calcium added. called the online store to find out what they would say and what they had been feeding him. they said crickets and greens. I'm not sure if they actually saw him eating as there were several in his enclosure. I asked if they tested for Atadenovirus and they said they did random swabs of the enclosures but couldn't say if he had been tested.

I have been trying a mix of greens that my other boys eat (collards, carrots, endive, dandelion greens, mustard greens and turnip greens), I have tried tiny Dubia roaches as my boys don't eat crickets, phoenix worms, wax worms, flightless fruit flies, and very tiny horn worms. He ate nothing. I had been soaking him and this would not bring a poop and he still looked dehydrated.

He has stayed the same weight throughout the time I have had him 8 grams and about 7.5".
I took him to the vet today to have a fecal test and exam. She gave him a liquid feeding, and subcutaneous liquids. She then called me later and said that he had seriously high levels of Coccidia. I know this can be from stress. The vet thinks it came from the Dubia Roaches.

I have to go drop off fecal samples from my other two which may be telling if it was something they were eating, but I wouldn't know what as they are a eating good variety. Even my one boy who is positive with ADV has been eating well.

Questions:
1. Has anyone ever had their Beardie get Coccidia from feeder insects especially Dubia's? ( I will be seriously peeved as I spent a lot of money and have hundreds of Dubias as well including adults to start a breeding colony)
I have to go drop off fecal samples from my other two which may be telling if it was something they were eating, but I wouldn't know what as they are a eating good variety. Even my one boy who is positive with ADV has been eating well.

2. So the last question is what is the best cleaner for Coccidia the bleach solution or the Ammonia?

3. What are the best supplements to help him now that he is going to have to take the medicine to kill off the Coccidia?
I ordered Acidophiliz+ and I have a whole host of things from my ADV boy (Milk Thistle, Serapeptase, Reptaid, colloidal silver, liquid calcium, liquid D, Bee pollen and Herpavite.


Oh and my setup temps etc are correct.

Thanks

Jacqui

I am not sure the feeders definitively can carry Coccidia, but it's possible they could be a vector for the oocysts if they fed on fecal matter. In that regard any insect could. Stress can lead to high counts, but environmental hygiene is a factor too.

Ammonia or quartenary ammonium cleaners, however heat(steam <works well and requires no rinsing> or fire) is generally more effective.

What medicine did he get? In general probiotics and extra guilds are a good idea with worming meds. If he is receiving Albon, the antibiotic can disrupt their system a bit.

Good luck with your treatment

I was able to get to the vet after hours to have the other two dragons fecals done and theirs were negative thank goodness. This lets me assume the dubias' aren't infected, or carrying anything.

The medicine prescribed is trimethoprim sulfa. I hadn't heard of it. I had only heard talk of Albion (sp).
I ordered a steam cleaner and I'm going to clean everyone's tank everyday. This way no-one gets anything!!

I guess I should be calm about the whole thing. It's something about the dragons that has me worried more than any other animal I've ever had!!

I should ask to have this posting moved to the infectious diseases section.

Glad your other dragons are clear! And that you go a steamer, they make cleaning much easier.

That drug looks to be one used for Coccidia as well, but I'm not familiar with it either. Probiotics and extra fluids would still be a good idea. When you are done with the treatment you should also get a follow up fecal to make sure the counts are down to an acceptable level.

Hello,

The Trimethoprim sulfa is used for coccidia & is a sulfa based drug which treats a wide variety of ailments.
It is good for gram negative bacteria.
Steaming is the best really for cleaning. That is great you are ordering one, that should help a lot!

The acidophiliz is probably the best probiotics you can use while she is on the meds.

I will move your thread to the Infectious Diseases for you, too.

Tracie

Tracie (or anyone who can help!),

Since the Sulfa drugs can affect their appetite should I feed him first and then give the medicine after that? I am using the Carnivore Care liquid diet.
I wont be getting the Acidophilliz+ until Tuesday but I want to start the antibiotics today. I just fed him should I wait?
This is going to be a long process. It says give .1ml every 24 hours for 2 days, then .1 ml every 48 hours after that for 21 days.

I know that when I do give it to him I am going to try to soak him. The crazy thing is that through all of this he has been dehydrated but hasn't lost a gram! Its a shame that the only way he is getting used to being handled is through me bathing him or forcing him to eat, and now giving him meds!
I'm going to try to upload a picture of him.

Thanks for the help in advance!

Jacqui

considering the beardie's age, and the conditions he was kept in at the breeder, it's almost certain the coccidia was already present in his system. the feeders should not be the problem, especially if proper sanitary procedures are being followed: no sharing of feeders between enclosures, no recycling of uneaten feeders back into the dubia colony, feeding the new/sick beardie last. since it's a new reptile, if quarantine procedures weren't already being followed, they definitely should be now that he is known to be infected and until some time has passed after he is clear of the infection.

in my opinion the best meds for coccidia are baycox/panazurl/toltrazuril. this medicine is much easier on they system, it is coccicidal (unlike albon which is merely a suppressant) and is specific to coccidia, leaving most beneficial gut flora unharmed. it is also much quicker to act, usually only 2 treatments back to back and a follow-up a week later is needed to clear the animal, and overdosage is less dangerous than with some other meds. i don't know enough about the sulfa drug that was prescribed, but if it doesn't succeed in clearing the coccidia then i'd definitely recommend using the toltrazuril next.

daily cleaning is really important, especially removing all fecal wastes as quickly and completely as possible. removable non-porous cage furniture and disposable substrate such as newspapers or paper towels should be used and disposed of when soiled. i use this coccicidal disinfectant and it is better in my opinion than anything else out there. i don't trust steam cleaners because there's so little information on which ones produce sufficient steam temperature or for how long the steam must be applied to succeed in killing the oocysts. that cleaner is safe to use. bleach won't kill coccidia, so bleach solutions are a waste of time.

I agree with Tim on the coccidial cleaner, I use it for every deep cleaning of their tanks and furniture. Followed by my steam cleaner for the corners and up under the rim of the top of the tanks. I love the professional pink cleaner for soaking furniture before baking it and for soaking bedding <hammocks pillows and blankies> before they go in the wash along with their washcloths and under feeding dish cloths. I cleaned with it for the first time and asked my vet if she would take a look at some swabs I did of the tankafter it was cleaned and she found nothing bacterial or paracidical in their tanks on the swabs. I also agree with Tim on the toltrazuril. Geico had a bad case of coccidian and after meds did not clear it up I tried 2 doses of the toltrazuril on a recommendation from someone here, and it cleared up his coccidian but also gave him benebac 2 hours afterwards <probiotic> and for up to a week when the meds were done to replenish any good gut flora.

Hello,

The meds should hopefully lower the levels.
I agree, the Ponazuril is a great anti-coccidial drug so if this med doesn't work you can get your vet to try that for him.
Steam cleaners are excellent as long as they get hot enough. Steaming for at least 5 minutes by going over the areas several times is pretty effective. It sounds like you have a good handle on things though right now.
At least he hasn't lost any weight though. Hopefully he is feeling a lot better now.
let us know how he is doing.

Tracie

Ok,
I am checking his weight and he hasn't gained but he hasn't lost. I am doing the carnivore care liquid orally. I added a little D and Calcium (liquid) to the formula. I am just making sure he is not too weak. He will let me do the feedings but he does fight me! He stopped running when I go to give meds or feed him as he has found resistance is futile!! :lol:
the Trimethorprim and sulfa is supposed to be .1ml every 24 hours for 2 days and then .1ml every 48 hours for 21 days.
He is about 7 inches and he is 8grams and is supposed to be around 6-7 weeks. I bought him from a reptile store online. I emailed them about the fact he wasn't eating. I think since they had several in the tank some may have been eating but I don't know if they can tell me that for sure he was eating. I know you are right about him having it when he got here because no one else has it and he wasn't even eating enough to
He seems to be on target as far as my other dragon who is fine with no health problems. I bough him from an online store I heard had good ratings but never again. My ADV positive boy was from Petsmart, this one was from another online mart and my boy with no issues ever, was from Cheryl at RioReptiles. She has wonderful dragons and they are healthy and disease free. I wanted him because he is supposed to be a red dragon. If I wasn't done with acquiring dragons I would go back to Cheryl or another dealer personally.

An yes I have taken quarantine precautions and have done well with keeping Kaden ADV free even though Konner is. I don't recycle feeder and don't use crickets so no one gets bitten.
Thanks for the well wishes and advice. The roaches are eating healthier than me!
I will keep you updated and even with the steam cleaner I will buy the Coccidial cleaner.

Jacqui

OMG I love my steam cleaner!!! so far so good. It came today and I asked the company how hot it gets and they said all of theirs run at 225 degrees. I was able to clean all three tanks within 45 minutes with no chemicals. I got rid of the old decorations and climbing stands which cant be cleaned.

I'm wondering if I should contact the online retailer where I bought my boy from and find out about any warranty they have. The Coccidia levels were way to high for him to have gotten them here. He had a brand new never used setup. I don't want to return him i love him but I paid a little under a hundred dollars for him and I have paid more than that in vet bills and meds. I told them he wasn't eating and they tried to just have me adjust stuff that wasn't wrong. He's lethargic dehydrated and thin because he is infected!! not his lighting.

I ordered from them because I had heard great reviews. I should have known though when I first ordered him. I said I wanted to see a pic of the one I was getting because I wanted the reddest one they have. they told me to make any special request I wanted. It turns out it was good I asked because the one they were shipping to me wasn't really red, and I asked if he had all of his fingers and toes and any tail nips and he did!! They never said anything! It was also good because the girl had someone else do the packing and that was not even the one she meant to send me!
I'd only gotten him the Wednesday and took him to the vet Saturday.

I'm going to email them again.

Still force feeding him and soaking him. I did get the Acidophiliz+ and he fought me but he ended up liking the taste!!

Sooo I go to the vet and I get the news that not only does Kacey have the highest level of Coccidia (the vet says it is rated from 1 to 4+ and Kacey is 4+), but the fecal came back positive for Atadenovirus. I am so disgusted. The vet said she had never seen a dragon with that high a level before.

Before I found out about the ADV I had received an email back from the reptile store saying they didn't really have a "sick animal policy" but to send them the info on the diagnosis and they would see what they could do.

I scanned in all of the documents from my vet and plan to send them to them now.
So not only did they sell babies with deathly Coccidia levels they also have ADV. Wonderful.Oh and there is the part also where if I hadn't asked if there were any tail nips or finger bites, the one I would have been sent had both
I am going to read the post that says how to post a pic.

Okay here is the pic the store sent me of him before shipping


Here are pics of him at home. He has stayed a stable 8g








I am hoping he will make it I have well over $400 in medical costs and I have only had him less than 2 weeks. He does have the fire angel on the top of his head so I'm hoping she'll protect him.

Hello,

Poor thing!
I am glad you have decided to keep him though, he is beautiful!
Hopefully the meds will work well for him. At least he likes the acidophiliz, that is great!
He is very small but hopefully he will get through all of this. Are you keeping his tank around 80 overnight to help his immune system?

Tracie

I am so glad that I have stuck it out with Kacey. We are by no means out of the woods at all, but today was a great day.
It is days like this that give me hope for his health.

After I cleaned his tank I made fresh greens for everyone we eat a combination of collard, mustard, turnip, and dandelion greens with carrots. I mix some calcium and vitamins in.
We don't eat crickets here (ick!!), we have dubia roaches, hornworms, phoenix worms.

Kacey hadn't been eating on his own I have been force feeding him Carnivore care and acidophiliz+ and water with some gatoraid.

I keep putting the greens in any way and today it payed off!! He ate some of the greens and bolstered by him doing that I dropped in about 4 baby dubias, and he ate them!!!

His hatch date is approx 3/5/14 and he has stayed the same range with me around 9 grams. I'm not sure about the Coccidia levels but I'm going to let him be for a while with the force feeding. especially if it will make him hungry enough to eat!!

Here are pictures of him, he even has his tail up happy! You can see from the pics that he is still dangerously dehydrated and thin. I soak him and my vet offered to give him fluid by injection free if I bring him when I bring my other boy who is on antibiotic shots every three days. I'm going to take him unless it starts to stress him out too much.

My first ADV positive boy from Petsmart started out like this and was only 15 grams at about 16 weeks. I think Kacey will be small any way because his head is tiny!!

Here he is having a good day. ( I had to sneak and get the pictures because he saw me looking and would stop eating!!)

Jacqui

BTW I just weighed him before posting him and he is 10 grams!! Highest he's been. Still cautious but optimistic!!
Skinny

Eating

Happy and lounging!!