Fluid filled coelum & atadenovirus testing questions

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Fluid filled coelum & atadenovirus testing questions

Postby lele » Wed Jan 30, 2013 10:25 am

[TOPIC AUTO-LOCKED DUE TO INACTIVITY]

A bit long, but want to give as much history as possible…

Darwin hatched Feb 10th 2005. (will be 8 in a couple weeks). I have had him since 2 1/2 months old.
He is 17" long, weighs 374g. His best weight was 434g in Dec 2006. Dropped to 400g & below around mid 2007.

He is a Citrus Translucent and his lineage is from Fire & Ice, though I did not get him from them, I have his bloodline. We did not know he was a translucent until I noticed some things (“see-thru” skin, black eyes). His, brother (only surviving hatch mate) died at about 1 year or so and I think weighed less than 100g (can get details).

Has always had Reptisun 5 or 10 (depending on tank depth) change as required. Has a long history of being a "poor-doer." He was not a great eater even as a baby. I never got him tested for AV due to testing variability (back then) and seemed it would not have changed any of the care I do anyway. He has been well cared for, hand fed pretty much now with homemade slurries (veggies and/or critical care/repti-aid). I try, usually to no avail, to get his weight up before brumating, but each year it is more and more difficult.

His brumating has typically been 4-7 days max under his log in spurts over the winter. This year it was longer, I figured age. I took him out for weight check and hydration and he seemed more “off” than usual. He has stayed out, normal low energy, but now is reluctant to move except to get himself “just” out of basking light but no farther. His muscle tone is pretty much diminished in all legs. Back in 2007 my vet asked if he every pulled himself up when he walked (belly often on or near ground).

Although he has always had proper lighting, CaD3, temps, etc. to stave off MBD he still has had some problems (he has a healed fracture near his hip. Looking back in photos, it always looked slightly “misaligned”). I often wondered if it was an absorption issue from the possibility of the virus, but this is why I have done a variety of regimens (including probiotics, acidophilus, reptaid, CA glubionate). He was born w/2 kinks in his tail (has straightened considerably) and one has now developed a small (hard) bump on it).

After reviewing more recent article on atadenovirus, one thing I came across was a photo of fluid in coelum. I have sort of been “teasing” Darwin for having a big belly for such a skinny guy – then I saw this image from article (this is not Darwin, but could be)
Image

We went to the vet yesterday. Before I said anything about his belly, he mentioned it. We did an x-ray to compare to last (4/2011). Bone density is good (always has been), tail/hip looked pretty much the same, ribs looked a bit different, not as well formed(?) structured. He pooped right there and it was clean. As for fluid, could not see any variability so does feel ab. has fluid, however last x-ray (4/11) shows same.

We discussed testing for AV, but I wanted to check here about actual cost, etc. (I have been unemployed since last April and my vet bills are nearly $1000 after caring for, and losing, a cat with cancer).

I found the DNA/PCR test fee from UoF at $100 (yikes!) I absolutely cannot afford this. Is there a cheaper way and should I even bother at this point. That said, we are concerned about the possible fluid in his belly. Should we do blood panel first instead?

I have read the PATs page http://www.thepats.info/Adenovirus_Testing.html but not sure how current it is as it mentions fecal and I was under the impression that a cloacal swab is best method. http://labs.vetmed.ufl.edu/files/2012/0 ... ol-DNA.pdf and I am not a breeder.

Any thoughts on abdomen, testing/not or questions about history/care I may have left out that is pertinent.

Thanks,
lele
[size=80]Darwin, Kyndra & Lita
0.2 Cats: Kaiya, Emma Lea'
*1.0 Bearded Dragon (translucent): Darwin RIP 2/10/2005-12/31/2016
*0.2 Snappers: Wellie 10/2008-2012, Rochella 9/2011, released 9/4/2012
0.1 Tarantulas: Cyana 6 Olivia RIP 2017, Zahra RIP 2016, Rosa Lea' RIP 20
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lele
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Re: Fluid filled coelum & atadenovirus testing questions

Postby Drache613 » Fri Feb 01, 2013 8:55 pm

Hello Lele,

Sorry for the delay.
How is Darwin doing?
Poor guy! You are right, the earlier testing WAS extremely hard to get accurate results a lot of the times, as there were a lot of variables.
We are getting more answers now but it takes time with the limited number of breeders willing to help.
The fecal EM is no longer done as the U. of Illinois did not have enough funding, or interest, etc.
The swab test offered through the Dallas lab that I work with will test for Adeno. You can do an "environmental swab" or a "direct fecal swab" for a stronger or more direct result. It is $18 for the test through Dallas.
That is excellent however, he is 8 IF he does have Adeno. Most don't tend to last that long. His morph tends to be from inbred stock which does result in a less than healthier offspring or more tendencies for suppressed immune system issues, etc. What dose of the calcium glubionate have you followed, did the vet dose it to you?
Your regime sounds great, with the probiotics, etc. Has he ever had any trouble with respiratory issues at all or fungal trouble?
If you would like, you can email me the x-rays & any blood work so I can take a look at them, too in case something has been missed?
If you haven't had a blood test done on him, I would consider that also, unless you want to do an Adeno test first. The fluid in the coelomic cavity could be from several things. I have to ask as I am sure you are positive on the sex, but you are sure he is male & not female correct? Liver impairment can cause fluid to fill the area, also.
I would get a test done on him so we can rule that in or out. If you would like to start treating for liver issues, that would be helpful, too. You have been proactive with him already.
You can try milk thistle or serrapeptase to help with his liver.

I hope he is doing well today! Do you have any pictures of him?
How often do you change his UVB light out & how close is it to him?
Do you keep his tank around 80 over night to help with his immune system?

Tracie
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Re: Fluid filled coelum & atadenovirus testing questions

Postby lele » Mon Feb 04, 2013 3:59 pm

Now it is my turn to apologize for the delay, had a bit of a difficult weekend... I was also trying to organize some of Darwin's past test results, x-rays & pics. I am going to scan/upload and will post in a little while but wanted to get a reply to you first.
Drache613 wrote: We are getting more answers now but it takes time with the limited number of breeders willing to help.
The fecal EM is no longer done as the U. of Illinois did not have enough funding, or interest, etc.
The swab test offered through the Dallas lab that I work with will test for Adeno. You can do an "environmental swab" or a "direct fecal swab" for a stronger or more direct result. It is $18 for the test through Dallas.

… is the “environmental swab” the cloacal swab? Is there a difference b/t what Dallas does vs. FL (for $100?) or is the price special for breeders who join PATS and if so can I still get it done this way. Should I have my vet do the swabbing so it is done properly and in a sterile environment, then he can read results or is it something I can do w/o stressing out Darwin – or me— and keep my costs down.

You said ”You can do an "environmental swab or a direct fecal swab for a stronger or more direct result.” Did you mean that the fecal swab gives a better result? That I can manage at home and would not have to incur additional vet costs.

Drache613 wrote: That is excellent however, he is 8 IF he does have Adeno. Most don't tend to last that long. His morph tends to be from inbred stock which does result in a less than healthier offspring or more tendencies for suppressed immune system issues, etc.

Yes, I even have his mom and dad’s (and maybe a grandpa) names. As I said, his brother died very young and very small :( I did not have him, but the friend I got him from did. I have both their baby pics and I chose Darwin because of his funny kinked tail. If Darwin does have it, maybe he is the oldest to survive!?! They can carry and be relatively asymptomatic and just be “poor doers” from what I understand. As I said in another post, I think mutual love is what keeps him here with me.

Drache613 wrote: What dose of the calcium glubionate have you followed, did the vet dose it to you?

I must be honest and say I don’t care for the herp vet in my area. He has seen him a couple times and I have blood work (I think, still digging around for that one). The one I went to last week is at my regular cat vet clinic but he has seen a selection of herps in his years of practice (studied in Europe) and is willing to learn (a definite plus!). There is an exotics specialist, but he is quite a distance. Darwin went to him once and that was the last bw and x-ray before last week (x-ray).

The glubionate was pretty much my own doing. I got it from Veronica (beautifuldragons.com) and followed the weight/dose on bottle, but never for more than a few days and since he likes the taste I often used it to get him to eat (to avoid force-feeding). I am always afraid of overdoing so if I used it that way I would adjust accordingly and/or if I mixed CaD3 into any of his slurries. His Ca has always been within range on all his tests, as has his phos. so was cautious on amount.

Drache613 wrote: If you haven't had a blood test done on him, I would consider that also, unless you want to do an Adeno test first. The fluid in the coelomic cavity could be from several things. I have to ask as I am sure you are positive on the sex, but you are sure he is male & not female correct? Liver impairment can cause fluid to fill the area, also. I would get a test done on him so we can rule that in or out. If you would like to start treating for liver issues, that would be helpful, too. You have been proactive with him already.
You can try milk thistle or serrapeptase to help with his liver.

His last bw was 4/2011.
I know about milk thistle and liver problems. How is it best given and dosing for beardies? The serrapeptase is in silkworms – he used to love them, but I got some just this past Oct. and he would not eat any, I dip them in squash baby food or in the neoCal and got him to eat a few that way.

As for which test to do first…the bw will run me around $70 and my biggest problem right now is finances. As mentioned before I have been unemployed since last April and paying off big cancer/euthanasia/cremation bill :( Not that I won’t do anything for my animals, but I just lost my apt. and had to move. (It’s just me, no other income and have been collecting unemployment just since Oct. and very little).

During that move, Darwin was in and out of a Styrofoam box with heat packs to keep him warm. Fortunately, he had been in a deep brumation before but I kept up temps best I could (it was traumatic for me and all the animals –even the tarantulas got cold! :( The house I am in now is very cold so I have been using my ceramic emitter. It is a 75w, but he is in a 40gal breeder tank as long as we are here, as his big 75gal tank and stand simply would not fit (moved into a furnished house until end of May). I had not been keeping his nighttime temps at 80° but have been trying since I read your post.

Drache613 wrote: I hope he is doing well today! Do you have any pictures of him?
How often do you change his UVB light out & how close is it to him?

He has eaten a little lately. I have been mashing dandelion, mustard, Flukers Repta-Aid, Oxbow critical care, a dash of CaD3, some Reptaid, etc. Today I mixed it with organic green beans and brown rice baby food. I know gb are not ideal, but it is one food he will eat. I usually use squash, but he gets tired of it. I did manage to get a fat female cricket (cut her ovipositor off) and two baby superworms in him, too. He loved me this morning and hates me tonight (I fake him out and he gives me the evil eye!). I know feeders are not ideal in winter b/c of brumation, but he needs some fat!

re: lights - I change them every 6-7 months
When he is in his 75 gal he has Reptisun 10 and his basking rock was about 15", his log, which he goes under, but often goes on top (cooler side of tank) was about 10" if that. In the 40gal. (only 18"deep) he has brand new 5.0 and his spots range from 7-9"

I am uploading photos and will post. I will email you his blood work results. Btw, I did post a year ago about light areas on his skin while basking viewtopic.php?f=6&t=163376 but never got any replies. There are two pics of him there, too. He has been very "blotchy" when he basks over the last few years, also on his belly (you will see in pics). I have often wondered if this was due to his being a translucent, but I do not recall, nor see evidence of it in past photos. he was always lovely yellow/orange.

Thanks for all your help!
lele & Darwin
[size=80]Darwin, Kyndra & Lita
0.2 Cats: Kaiya, Emma Lea'
*1.0 Bearded Dragon (translucent): Darwin RIP 2/10/2005-12/31/2016
*0.2 Snappers: Wellie 10/2008-2012, Rochella 9/2011, released 9/4/2012
0.1 Tarantulas: Cyana 6 Olivia RIP 2017, Zahra RIP 2016, Rosa Lea' RIP 20
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Re: Fluid filled coelum & atadenovirus testing questions

Postby lele » Mon Feb 04, 2013 9:46 pm

I uploaded several photos here under Darwin 2013 I made comments on many so you can see some questions and explanations there. Also look at Darwin where I have a few baby pics and some others.

here are his two translucent belly pics at a bout 2 1/2 months (these two are old and my hand looks very pink! Looks like his skin is reflecting the color, too :shock: )

Image

Image

Here you can see from femoral pores that there is no question he is a male ;)

Image
[size=80]Darwin, Kyndra & Lita
0.2 Cats: Kaiya, Emma Lea'
*1.0 Bearded Dragon (translucent): Darwin RIP 2/10/2005-12/31/2016
*0.2 Snappers: Wellie 10/2008-2012, Rochella 9/2011, released 9/4/2012
0.1 Tarantulas: Cyana 6 Olivia RIP 2017, Zahra RIP 2016, Rosa Lea' RIP 20
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Re: scheduled for blood test tomorrow

Postby lele » Wed Feb 06, 2013 3:36 pm

Broke as I am, I have a full panel scheduled for tomorrow (over $100 :( His numbers have always been within range (or close) in the past, so I have mixed feelings about doing it, but just not sure. More info in last post.

Tracie, sent you a PM, too.

thanks
[size=80]Darwin, Kyndra & Lita
0.2 Cats: Kaiya, Emma Lea'
*1.0 Bearded Dragon (translucent): Darwin RIP 2/10/2005-12/31/2016
*0.2 Snappers: Wellie 10/2008-2012, Rochella 9/2011, released 9/4/2012
0.1 Tarantulas: Cyana 6 Olivia RIP 2017, Zahra RIP 2016, Rosa Lea' RIP 20
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Re: Fluid filled coelum & atadenovirus testing questions

Postby Drache613 » Thu Feb 07, 2013 12:27 am

Hello Bonnie,

Let me know how things go with the blood test. You can send me a copy of them so I can take a look at them, also.
The discolored tummy I believe is relatively normal with trans morphs. He outgrew it though or doesn't appear to have that discoloring on him now.
I am glad you have increased his heating overnight, maybe that will help a little bit.
With regards to the testing, the fecal swab gives a stronger results than swabbing the environment, yes. The test is $18 as well & can be done at home. You don't need to be a breeder to test, either.
They can carry it with virtually no symptoms but in times of stress cause the virus to manifest more. They can pass it to others, also. Most of the times, if they can successfully reach adulthood, most of them can live normal lives with proper care. There are quite a few problems associated with this virus though.
That is fine, the glubionate works great & if you are dosing him properly that should not be a problem.
It sounds like the vet who studied in Europe is trying & seems to be helpful?
Milk thistle is easily given in powder form or liquid. I think a base dose of 15mg/kg works well with the milk thistle or serrapeptase.
That poor cricket though, cutting her ovopositor off. I hope he enjoyed the bugs! The organic baby food is great, that should hopefully help him out right now. He does need some weight on him right now.
You could probably use a Reptisun 10 for a stronger exposure at 8-10 inch distances. Do you have the Reptisun 5 mounted directly over head alongside the basking light?

Let me know how he is doing.
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Re: Fluid filled coelum & atadenovirus testing questions

Postby lele » Sun Feb 10, 2013 8:24 am

Tracie - I sent you Darwin's bw on Friday...

thanks!
[size=80]Darwin, Kyndra & Lita
0.2 Cats: Kaiya, Emma Lea'
*1.0 Bearded Dragon (translucent): Darwin RIP 2/10/2005-12/31/2016
*0.2 Snappers: Wellie 10/2008-2012, Rochella 9/2011, released 9/4/2012
0.1 Tarantulas: Cyana 6 Olivia RIP 2017, Zahra RIP 2016, Rosa Lea' RIP 20
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Re: Fluid filled coelum & atadenovirus testing questions

Postby Drache613 » Wed Feb 13, 2013 12:21 am

Hello Bonnie,

Yes, thanks a lot! I got your swab in the mail today. Let me know when you it.

Tracie
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Re: Fluid filled coelum & atadenovirus testing questions

Postby lele » Wed Feb 13, 2013 2:36 pm

I am trying to hold off his poop until it gets here! :shock: w/o him eating much he only poops a couple times a week unless it is in the bath. I assume it should be super fresh and not sitting in his tank for any length of time?

Thanks for everything!
[size=80]Darwin, Kyndra & Lita
0.2 Cats: Kaiya, Emma Lea'
*1.0 Bearded Dragon (translucent): Darwin RIP 2/10/2005-12/31/2016
*0.2 Snappers: Wellie 10/2008-2012, Rochella 9/2011, released 9/4/2012
0.1 Tarantulas: Cyana 6 Olivia RIP 2017, Zahra RIP 2016, Rosa Lea' RIP 20
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Re: Fluid filled coelum & atadenovirus testing questions

Postby Drache613 » Fri Feb 15, 2013 10:55 am

Hello Bonnie,

You are very welcome! I hope Darwin is behaving himself today also. :D


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Re: Darwin test results (Fluid filled coelum)

Postby lele » Sun Feb 24, 2013 10:42 am

Thought I would update here before posting elsewhere for anyone (other than Tracie) who might be following this. Thanks for everything, Tracie :wave:

Darwin's test results for the atadenovirus were negative! Yeah! But, it is confusing as to what his problems have been most of his life. I will have him retested in a few months and will continue what I am doing. He turned 8 two weeks ago so must be doing something right AND he just ate a cockroach! :D
[size=80]Darwin, Kyndra & Lita
0.2 Cats: Kaiya, Emma Lea'
*1.0 Bearded Dragon (translucent): Darwin RIP 2/10/2005-12/31/2016
*0.2 Snappers: Wellie 10/2008-2012, Rochella 9/2011, released 9/4/2012
0.1 Tarantulas: Cyana 6 Olivia RIP 2017, Zahra RIP 2016, Rosa Lea' RIP 20
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Re: Fluid filled coelum & atadenovirus testing questions

Postby Drache613 » Tue Feb 26, 2013 12:13 am

Hello Bonnie,

No problem, I hope Darwin is doing ok today!
Let's retest him in a few months just to be sure.
I am not sure why he has not done very well for a portion of his life. It could be genetics, also. You must be doing something right or he wouldn't have made it to the age he is!
Let me know if you need anything.

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