Adenovirus Question

chickcasa":27f7raqm said:

I suspect most dragons who become very ill, it is due to secondary infections during active periods of adeno infection.

I also would like to point out that I don't believe anyone said that ALL dragons have the virus. Daichu's statement says they believe that *many/most* have it, and it sounds as though further testing is going to be required to see whether or not this is true. Given that I agree with this belief, and current research does not disprove it, I have no problem with Daichu's policy in not testing their dragons. They simply make this known for people who are more concerned about adeno than they are. That is their right, and should not be vilified, particularly given the continued lack of convincing evidence that there is anything inherently unhealthy about most adeno positive dragons.

~Katy

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Hi Katy, thanks for your input on the matter - it's great to be able to discuss this with others in a mature manner May I ask what you mean when you say that current research does not disprove that most bearded dragons have Adenovirus? I'd be very interested in checking out the reference article/study demonstrating that. Also, if you believe that related illnesses/deaths are actually being caused by secondary infections taking place while the Adenovirus is active, then wouldn't that lead you to believe that Adenovirus has immunosuppressant characteristics? I mean, that's kind of similar to HIV... the virus itself won't kill you but it will make it to where you can't fight off the simplest common illness. I would say that's pretty inherently unhealthy, in my personal opinion. Although I respect Dachiu's openness in informing their customers outright that they do NOT test for Adenovirus, the claims they make about Adenovirus seem contradictory when they then say that they'll refund the purchase price of any dragon purchased from them who tests positive for Adeno within 6 weeks. An actual purchase price refund versus replacement for a reptile is almost unheard of in this industry... why would they be willing to refund a reptile purchase if they stood behind the belief that there's not significant health risks associated with Adenovirus? Also, don't quote me on this for fact - but I believe that notice only even went up on their site a few years back after some of their customers complained on Fauna about ill dragons coming from them & some positive Adeno results were posted.

Anyway, I agree with you that Adenovirus isn't necessarily a death sentence... but neither are a lot of other potential illnesses. That doesn't make it ok to sell dragons who have it, just like it's not ok to sell a dragon with a URI (again, just my opinion). At the very least I feel that someone should KNOW that they're purchasing an Adeno-positive beardie so that they can make the choice for themselves as to whether or not they want to deal with that. I know that I, as a dragon owner myself, would definitely care for an Adeno positive beardie differently - especially since I have a negative beardie already.

(in reply to XtinaBeardieMom... I didn't want to make this post any longer than it already is by quoting! LOL)
I was going off what Tracie has written, that the test shows a positive only if the dragon is shedding the virus and that she had personally only repeat tested 2 dragons who she could confidently say are definitely negative. I think the only definitive way to know how prevalent the virus is in dragons would be to test a good number of dragons (healthy and otherwise) post mortem. And even then, what if we are wrong about adenovirus being something that stays with the animal for life? Post mortem testing of previously positive tested animals will help determine that. Even if adenovirus DOES stay with an animal for life, there are plenty of other viruses that will lay dormant in a host forever without becoming an active infection and without causing any illness or being contagious.

As far as the immunosuppression possibility, I don't think so, not like HIV/AIDS. There are many other illnesses that can cause secondary infections, for example you can develop pneumonia as a secondary infection to the flu or a common cold. In a way, yes, it is taking advantage of a compromised immune system, but the difference is that in AIDS the immune system is chronically compromised. With your typical illness leading to a secondary infection, the immune system is temporarily weakened due to using its resources to fight off something else. If anything, it is the other way around. In humans, adenoviruses causes different/worse symptoms in those who are immunocompromised.

Adenovirus in other animals and people is rather common, and only in some cases is it potentially fatal. So thinking that reptile adenoviruses are going to be worse than average is, yes, playing it safe, but a not a very safe assumption without more research.

As far as Daichu, it isn't at all contradictory to offer a refund if a person tests a dragon and it comes back positive. It's good business practice. They don't have to AGREE with other people about how serious adeno is/is not to respect other peoples opinions enough to not keep a dragon that tests positive for it. Is a person who does not want an adeno positive dragon really going to want to exchange for a different dragon, that they now think may be more likely to have adeno if they already got one from the breeder that was positive? No. So offering an exchange simply isn't a viable option... it's either they offer a refund, or nothing at all. Good customer service means making the customer happy, even if that means the customer does not ultimately keep your product. I don't know when they put the notice up, but even if it was after some complaints that's a good reaction to have, is to offer a refund rather than tell people they are SOL or can have a different dragon that may also have adeno. They certainly aren't the only breeder that doesn't test their dragons. Browsing other breeders websites breifly over the past couple days, few others even address adeno at all much less state they have had their own dragons tested.

~Katy

chickcasa":23q4vhzn said:

As far as the immunosuppression possibility, I don't think so, not like HIV/AIDS. There are many other illnesses that can cause secondary infections, for example you can develop pneumonia as a secondary infection to the flu or a common cold. In a way, yes, it is taking advantage of a compromised immune system, but the difference is that in AIDS the immune system is chronically compromised. With your typical illness leading to a secondary infection, the immune system is temporarily weakened due to using its resources to fight off something else. If anything, it is the other way around. In humans, adenoviruses causes different/worse symptoms in those who are immunocompromised.

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I'm not going to pretend I know a lot about Adeno, because I don't, and all of this is pretty confusing, but I was under the assumption that what made Adeno something to be concerned about IS its immuno-supressent qualities. The fact that dragons who are positive for the virus are more susceptible to parasites and are affected by parasite treatments more harshly than an Adeno negative dragon. I've also read from a couple different sources (not sure how reliable they are) that Adenovirus positive dragons could be more susceptible to yellow fungus.

I agree with you in that its common when fighting off an illness to develop a secondary infection due to a weakened immune system, however I don't think Adeno can be labeled a "typical illness", because unlike the flu or the common cold, Adeno (from what I've read) sticks with the dragon for a good part, if not all its life. That means its resources for fighting off secondary illnesses is pretty much always compromised. That seems like something you shouldn't take so lightly, in my opinion.

Katie007":104pgiig said:

I'm not going to pretend I know a lot about Adeno, because I don't, and all of this is pretty confusing, but I was under the assumption that what made Adeno something to be concerned about IS its immuno-supressent qualities. The fact that dragons who are positive for the virus are more susceptible to parasites and are affected by parasite treatments more harshly than an Adeno negative dragon. I've also read from a couple different sources (not sure how reliable they are) that Adenovirus positive dragons could be more susceptible to yellow fungus.

I agree with you in that its common when fighting off an illness to develop a secondary infection due to a weakened immune system, however I don't think Adeno can be labeled a "typical illness", because unlike the flu or the common cold, Adeno (from what I've read) sticks with the dragon for a good part, if not all its life. That means its resources for fighting off secondary illnesses is pretty much always compromised. That seems like something you shouldn't take so lightly, in my opinion.

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But see, I'm not really sure we have enough solid evidence of any of this. To the best of my knowledge, a lot of initial info has been assumed based on testing on animals that are already ill or have already died, who happened to test positive for the virus. There wasn't a good explanation for why the dragon was so sick, after testing it turned out to have adeno, so it was assumed that the adeno was the cause of the problems... but this is correlational data. You cannot show causation from it. There seems to be more information coming that sounds, at least from what little I have read here lately, to indicate that we still have very little info about healthy dragons who carry the virus. But that they DO exist.

There's also the very real possibility that any of those supposed links between adeno and other illnesses are actually in fact all linked to something else that weakens the immune system that causes an increased susceptibility to parasites, fungus, AND adeno. Just because adeno is present in dragons who are ill, doesn't necessarily mean that adeno is causing all of this. There is the very real possibility that something else that causes immune suppression (genetics, a bacteria, another virus, environmental exposures, etc) then makes a dragon more likely to develop active adenovirus infection as well.

Even if adenovirus does cause a suppressed immune system, this doesn't mean it does it all the time. It is common for viruses to remain dormant in a host for a period of time which can vary from only some of the time to almost all of the time. Take mono, humans get mono once but carry the virus in dormancy forever... it CAN cause an active infection again, rarely, if the persons immune system becomes compromised for some reason. Mono is caused by the eppstein bar virus, which is a type of herpes virus. Other herpes viruses in humans have more frequent active infections, but still go periods of time lying dormant where the person has no symptoms and is not contagious. The more likely scenario is that adenovirus, if it is carried with a dragon, in most dragons only shows an active infection some of the time and would only suppress the immune system during that time (if it suppresses it at all) or that something else that suppresses the immune system triggers the active adeno infection.

Realistically the reason people tend to think it is so bad is partly because it is better to be safe than sorry, and partly because most people aren't very good consumers of science and misattribute things as causational even when all of the evidence is correlational. Lets put it this way, I almost always have a soda I am drinking in the car while I drive. If I were to get into an accident, should we assume that it was caused by drinking my soda just because I happened to have it in the car? I'm just personally not convinced that adeno isn't getting a bad rep for being in the wrong place at the wrong time. There needs to be more data on healthy dragons and how many carry adenovirus, which it sounds like there is becoming more info on, as testing is becoming more common.

~Katy

I guess I have to agree with that. The only way to prove or disprove any of it though is with more research, which I know is heading in that direction. That's why I plan to get my currently negative dragon re-tested, and have been trying to encourage others I know with beardies to test and re-test also. It's the only way to get some definitive information, so we can all stop speculating. One thing I know though, is this thread has made me feel a lot better about the possibility of my dragon having Adeno, in that it definitely isn't a death sentence. I'd still want to know for sure though, just so I can be extra cautious.

Hello,

This has been a great discussion.
There is obviously still a lot more research to embark on & I feel like I have been the lone ranger on it for awhile. After the few vets that were trying to do research on went by the wayside due to persecution from a lot of the breeders, I am the one of the only ones left trying to gain more answers.

Anyway, as far as the statement of all dragons having Adeno, that was a statement which was used & still is used by a lot of breeders unfortunately. Several years back, it was a phrase commonly used by breeders to simply avoid having to test their colonies. By working in conjunction with the lab & gathering my own data, I have seen that roughly half of the dragons tested are negative. I have spoken numerous times with the lab regarding their opinions of the virus, in general, shedding, etc. In all honesty, no one knows for sure since there has not been enough data presented on the subject. You no longer have to test post mortem though which is great news! You can test dragons while they are healthy, or sick to get a reading.
From the information that I have gathered, the lab considers a specimen, or in this case, bearded dragons, to be negative after 3 consecutive test results of being negative tested at 3 or so month intervals. A bearded dragon is not all of the sudden going to test positive for no reason unless they are exposed to a positive dragon after testing negative then of course that will or could change the outcome. I am working with someone who has been testing for me & myself personally have some tests from consecutive testing which have been negative. I am not at liberty yet to discuss nor release the results yet.
On a side note, my overall goal when I started my endeavor was not to go on a rampage & put breeders on guard or out of business, but to try & educate & steer people to do the ethical thing by testing in the very least. Apparently, the breeders did not have enough passion to try & take care of this early on. So we have the mess we have now, which is a lot of dragons who have been bred that were positive & inbred. People deserve to know what they are buying & it is the responsibility of the breeder to provide a healthy dragon. I don't see the problem with that, since other species have pedigreed & certified healthy animals, such as dogs, cats & horses. Why can't we as a whole try to provide that type of service for reptiles, they deserve it also. It doesn't make sense to continually breed immunosuppressed dragons that can't handle stress very well. I would imagine that sick dragons in the wild would not breed near as much as healthy ones as it would be the survival of the fittest type of scenario. Why do we force that situation in captivity then? It is known to cause an array of symptoms that do contribute to secondary problems. I have been trying to understand how we can fix this mess, but unless healthier breeders are used, I don't see how there can be any improvement.
I don't think that is too much to ask out of breeders, personally. I think we can all agree that Adeno is not the cause for everything, as husbandry & genetics play a huge role also. However, we should make more of an effort to not breed without testing to make more of an informed decision. It is our duty as keepers since we have chosen to keep them in captivity.
Adeno is not necessarily a death sentence, especially once they get past their juvenile stage. The symptoms can be treated quite successfully. If a dragon carries it & it is in dormancy, it can come out in times of stress sure, but it may still show in low levels on a test even when they are not ill. The problem is that you have to look at the big picture. Adeno attacks the liver & while it may not appear at the time to be affecting the dragon early on, it may affect the manner in which is can metabolize fat as it becomes an adult which could contribute to fatty liver disease. If bred, then it passes that genetic material onto its offspring, which becomes another cycle.
I think those types of thought patterns may be missing in a lot of the breeders who don't think far enough down the line to consider the long term health of the dragon. No one can see inside of the organs unless you do a biopsy, or exploratory surgery which is not desirable unless absolutely necessary.

Those are my thoughts. I am proud of the people who have worked with me along the way & very grateful to those who are willing to help & ask more questions to learn more. I constantly learn more & I learn from all of you as well.

Thanks for a great discussion.

Tracie