Just a question?

A Buddie of mine has this problem that I never dealt with before!! The bottom part of her vent is black and swollen!! It is not a prolapse! His husbandry is on point!! He said that it got this way the last shed! And he said it is not a retained shed! He tried a bath with baby soap and a baby tooth brush and nothing! So I will try to get a picture up! Anyone ever herd or seen this before? :roll:

Hello Lance,

Did she have any discoloration before now? It is a possibility of yellow fungus. I will wait for a picture though.
I am assuming he has bathed her several times, then, to see if it will come off, right?
What type of substrate does he have her on?

Tracie

Tracie, she is on slate. Also he has bathed her many of times! To me it does not look like yellow fungus! It kinda looks dead! Ill try to get a picture up.

Lance
I have seen something like this before with my first dragon, my big male. He developed a small bump (smaller than a pea) by his vent that went dark brown/black within a day or two. Was soaking him a couple times a day and it didn't seem to increase. (Initially we were thinking it was possibly a callous) Then after a couple weeks it started to grow and was all black. Called the vet, at the time it was slightly larger than a pea, she couldn't see him for about 6 days, by the time I took him in the next week the bump was the size of a marble (I had continued to soak with no results). She soaked him and picked at it trying to get a good look at it. It was a mass. We decided to remove it. Started him on antibiotics and she removed the mass 4 days later. We sent it for testing to see what it was (the tissue around this mass was all necrotic-dead). It was determined that it was a type of virus with a secondary infection. To remove the mass the vet had to remove part of the vent on that side as well. By the time we got the tests results a coule days later, little bumps had started to form on the thigh of his back right leg and on different spots on the base of his tail. I was now giving him antibiotics by injection and meloxicam. After the surgery, it slowed the progress of the virus slightly, but within 2 weeks, he took a turn for the worse. (the vet had told me the virus had probably already spread and that the outcome wasn't promising as this type of virus tends to head for the brain). He began head tilting and turning circles and we put him back on the meloxicam to make him comfortable. I knew it was time to consider putting him down. The night before I was to take him in to do this, he passed away while sitting curled up in my lap. I asked the vet what it was that I did wrong, and she told me he was born with this virus and it had layed dormant until after his first real brumation then became active and growing rapidly. I spent almost $1,000 trying to save my boy, but, regardless of the outcome it was worth the attempt.
Now, mind you, your friends beardie may have any number of things going on, but I would highly recommend he take her to the vet and have them take a sample of that tissue as it sounds necrotic and have it tested to see what is going on. Let us know how things turn out!

Sandy, thanks!! Well I just got word today that his little girl passed away!! He had a vet appointment today but I guess it was to late! So he is donating her for science research! It is a shame only at 2 years old!!

Hello Lance,

Oh I am sorry about your friend's dragon. I had thought possible late stage yellow fungus which turns black when the fungus is dying off.
A virus that kills tissue which causes tumors or lumps/bumps is horrible. I don't know what would cause that type of bacteria or viral contraction.
Being born with it is definitely a possibility, & she is young. There are all types of things that they can be born with that can lay dormant in their systems.
It is too bad it wasn't caught earlier to try & treat it.

Tracie

Tracie,

Yea he is upset. He told me that they are going to a dissection then try to figure out what has caused it. But I don't think we will find out anytime soon. As soon as I get word ill update everybody with it. I just cant believe he said it started about 2 months ago. He thought it a retained shed at the vent, but then it just got bigger. I guess it was a 1-2 cm tumor. Wow that really took a quick toll for the worse! I am really curious to know what it was.

Lance, I am so sorry your friend lost his girl. It sounds so much like by Big boys lump. It started as a small bump that in two months was a tumer that was growing rapidly. My vet said it was a herpes type virus that affects reptiles and it spreads like mad once it gets a foot hold. She also believes that we will see more and more occurances of this virus, just like with the adeno virus. There is no cure for it, and even caught in the early stages, will still progress rapidly. Ultimately, it heads for the soft tissues, especially the brain. My boy was only 2 years old as well and he was a huge, healthy dominant male until this happened. My vet seemed to think that the dormant virus became active after that first true brumation, and the chemical changes in the body after they brumate. Tell your friend that my heart goes out to him, it's bad enough to lose a very young dragon or an elderly dragon, but one that you've had for a couple years thats in its prime just seems all the worse.

Sandy, I will do that. Thank you. It is just weird how these viruses keep showing up! Wish I had the funds to fund for a lab and its research on and for beardies! :roll:

That is part of the problem, there is really very little research on beardies when it comes to vet medicine. Just like with most reptile species. It's coming, slowly but surely, especially with people like your friend donating his females body for research. My vet wanted to do the surgery to remove the mass and wanted to have a histopathy done to see what it was as well as the opportunity to examine the mass more closely (she sent part to the lab for the tests and kept a small part to examine herself). We were hoping that removing the mass would eliminate the illness along with antibiotics if it were a bacterial thing. But, my vet had seen something like this before and she forewarned me that it was probably a virus. She's done a lot of research herself (she owns beardies and lost one to cancerous lumps-it was her first necropsy). She's really an awesome vet, she's put a lot of time into research and theres a vet website that vets can share their findings, questions and research that she spends a lot of time on. I think we need more vets out there like this one who want to look for the causes and try to understand them in order to form new treatments. The herpes virus in reptiles was originally found in certain snake and turtle species (and I think maybe some species of iguana) and has only recently, in the last 5 years or so started to show up in beardies and other lizards. Remember, it was just a few years ago that it was believed the the adeno virus had not affected beardies and they weren't considered susceptable to it, now look, it's becoming more and more wide spread. I can't help but think that much of this is due to large scale breeders and some small scale ones as well who are housing so many animals, and attempting to start new lines and breeding programs and these viruses have crept in and been spread before it was realized what was going on.( Not pointing a finger, just an opinion). If you get one parent that is a carrier of a disease that it has contracted, it may not become ill, but will pass on that virus to it's offspring and sooner or later that dormant virus is going to raise it's ugly head. Or the Adeno Virus, which if I understand correctly is highly contageous, is contracted by a beardie that is exposed to another animal that is carrying it, then passes it to other beardies it comes in contact with through handling, breeding and, with many larger breeders, being housed with other beardies. It's a vicious cycle. And with the gene pool getting ever smaller here, it's going to get worse I'm afraid.
Lance, let me know what your friend finds out, I'm interested also to see what caused his females early death. It reminds me so much of my boy, it breaks my heart. Tell your friend, Chin up-maybe by donating her to science will help beardies in the near future.

Sandy I think you hit the nail on the head! And I will do so..

I totally agree with you Sandy.

My understanding of viruses is if they have one virus, especially adenovirus, it makes them susceptible to other viruses. There is a virus that effects bearded dragons that has to have a host virus such as adenovirus. I think the name of it is dependovirus.

Lance, please tell your friend that I am truly sorry they lost their girl.

I will most definitely! Thank you all for caring as much as we do. I was doing a little reading and I see that their are other viruses out there. I am still doing research and I will be working closely with a few vets and Tracie if she would like. A few new things will be reveled soon....

Yes Lance, there are several viruses out there that can affect beardies or could potentially affect beardies. I have also done some research after losing my first dragon this way, trying to understand whats out there, it's origins and how it is spreading. Major progress in this would be some form of testing that can identify a virus early and even if it's fatal, that could help breeders make a decision early on not to breed an infected animal and avoid passing on the virus to the babies as well as isolating the animal to keep from passing it to other animals. Let me know what you find Lance, I'm always interested in all info on the subject.

Sandy, absolutely!! We are also going to be doing tons of blood cultures with marrow platelets! Also quiet a few other tests! One of the biggest ones I have been working on is the shell of the egg! Sounds weird but believe it or not you can tell a lot from it! More to come, as I don't want to leave the cat out of the bag just yet!!! Tracie may know what I am getting to! :wink: We will talk..