Re-Using an Old Tank After AV

This forum is for people to discuss the issues specifically around having to deal with infectious diseases such as Adeno virus or Coccidia.

Re-Using an Old Tank After AV

Postby Naomi » Fri Jul 03, 2009 11:07 pm

[TOPIC AUTO-LOCKED DUE TO INACTIVITY]

I realize there have been a few posts regarding this, but I had a rather specific question, so forgive me for making a new one.

Last January, I lost my baby Hermes to a suspected case of Adenovirus. I am now looking into getting a new dragon, but I would really like to re-use one of his old cages. I have read repeatedly on this forum that there is no proven way of properly killing AV. However, I hadn't had Hermes in this particular cage for at least a year and a half, at which point I steam cleaned it for my snake. She's been in a new cage for the last year or so. Obviously, I would thoroughly clean it out again any way before I put my new dragon in it.

So, my question is: Can any AV from Hermes still be living in this tank even though it has been so long since he'd had any contact with it? I'm not sure how long the shelf-life is for AV, and I'm concerned that it may not be safe for the new little guy. I'd rather go out and buy a new tank than have any risk of infecting another dragon with the virus that claimed my baby's life.



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Re: Re-Using an Old Tank After AV

Postby zebraflavencs » Sat Jul 04, 2009 3:47 am

I could be wrong, however if you steam cleaned it, that kills most virus'. You can also use a 10% bleach mixed with water to clean, allow to air dry, and hit it with the steamer. That should kill everything.
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Re: Re-Using an Old Tank After AV

Postby pscaulkins » Sat Jul 04, 2009 3:53 pm

Steam cleaning does not kill adenovirus. Here is what I would do, I would wash really well with bleach, rinse real well, wash with Ammonia, rinse really well, get some new aquarium sealent and reseal the tank. Just put the new sealant over the old. This is your best bet. Adenovirus particles can get under the sealant. I did this once and then sold the tank and just bought a new tank for Jada. I was told to do this when I bought a used tank from a breeder.
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Re: Re-Using an Old Tank After AV

Postby zebraflavencs » Sat Jul 04, 2009 5:22 pm

Thanks I figured with both the bleach and steam cleaning that would do. Appreciate the heads up on that.
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Re: Re-Using an Old Tank After AV

Postby BadCon » Mon Jul 06, 2009 3:37 pm

Ok first off...using bleach and ammonia during the same cleaning cycle warrants more than "rinse really well". Combining these two household products will produce toxic (read deadly) gas. Rinse EXTREMELY well before using either of these chemicals after one another. While several reactions are possible (all of which are dangerous), one such reaction between bleach and ammonia may produce Chlorine Gas...which was used during WW1 as an effective chemical weapon on all sides. I can't stress enough the risks one takes by using these two products during the same cleaning cylce. RINSE WELL...or use one or the other based on what your trying to kill.

The human strains of adenovirus are very resistant to disinfectants...so much so, that killing them is somewhat of a benchmark with regards to efficacy. With little info about the reptile strains being available, I can only assume they are as resistant to chemical disinfectants, maybe more so. That said, from my readings, bleach (sodium hypochlorite) seems to be an effective disinfectant with regards to adeno virus in concentrations starting at 1%.
* So, my suggestion for your situation is to mix a fresh 10% bleach solution (1 part bleach, 9 parts water), and let contact the tank for 20 minutes. It must stay wet with the solution during this time. After the 20 minutes, rinse well with water, and keep rinsing until all the fumes are gone (easier outside with a hose). Let air dry....and your done. There is no need to use ammonia in this situation, especially if adeno virus is your main concern. Also, bleach is rapidly deactivated in the presence of organic compounds, so make sure the tank has been pre-cleaned with warm soapy water to remove any soils, rinsing well once completed.

Also, from my readings, Adeno Virus seems to have an activation period of 10 days on clean surfaces (assuming no organic soils are present to harbor it for longer). So I think your chances of a further infection are greatly reduced after this amount of time, assuming the tank is clean. That said, I would use the bleach solution anyways.

If you want to get exotic, Virkon S is a chemical disinfectant shown to be effective against adeno virus (human strains). Its available in powdered form, and can be had for cheap on the internet. Roccal D is also an effective disinfectant, and is used in many vet and farm situations to control tough to kill parasites and virusis, such as parvo-virus and coccidia. Both of these would be effective for your situation...and any future cleanings.
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Re: Re-Using an Old Tank After AV

Postby pscaulkins » Mon Jul 06, 2009 6:27 pm

BadCon wrote:Ok first off...using bleach and ammonia during the same cleaning cycle warrants more than "rinse really well". Combining these two household products will produce toxic (read deadly) gas. Rinse EXTREMELY well before using either of these chemicals after one another. While several reactions are possible (all of which are dangerous), one such reaction between bleach and ammonia may produce Chlorine Gas...which was used during WW1 as an effective chemical weapon on all sides. I can't stress enough the risks one takes by using these two products during the same cleaning cylce. RINSE WELL...or use one or the other based on what your trying to kill.
I never said to mix them. I said to rinse them very well before using the other. I spent around 4 hours cleaning that aquarium.
The human strains of adenovirus are very resistant to disinfectants...so much so, that killing them is somewhat of a benchmark with regards to efficacy. With little info about the reptile strains being available, I can only assume they are as resistant to chemical disinfectants, maybe more so. That said, from my readings, bleach (sodium hypochlorite) seems to be an effective disinfectant with regards to adeno virus in concentrations starting at 1%.
* So, my suggestion for your situation is to mix a fresh 10% bleach solution (1 part bleach, 9 parts water), and let contact the tank for 20 minutes. It must stay wet with the solution during this time. After the 20 minutes, rinse well with water, and keep rinsing until all the fumes are gone (easier outside with a hose). Let air dry....and your done. There is no need to use ammonia in this situation, especially if adeno virus is your main concern. Also, bleach is rapidly deactivated in the presence of organic compounds, so make sure the tank has been pre-cleaned with warm soapy water to remove any soils, rinsing well once completed.
Bleach does not kill every thing.
Also, from my readings, Adeno Virus seems to have an activation period of 10 days on clean surfaces (assuming no organic soils are present to harbor it for longer). So I think your chances of a further infection are greatly reduced after this amount of time, assuming the tank is clean. That said, I would use the bleach solution anyways.
This is not so for reptile Adenovirus. I have been told it can live over a year on surfaces and is active the whole time. Seriously, all you have to do is hold a positive dragon, wash hands and handle a negative dragon without changing your clothes and your negative just might become positive.

If you want to get exotic, Virkon S is a chemical disinfectant shown to be effective against adeno virus (human strains). Its available in powdered form, and can be had for cheap on the internet. Roccal D is also an effective disinfectant, and is used in many vet and farm situations to control tough to kill parasites and virusis, such as parvo-virus and coccidia. Both of these would be effective for your situation...and any future cleanings.

Cleaning with chemicals alone will NOT kill adenovirus under the sealant and yes it can get under it without noticing it. It needs to be resealed. The OP didn't want to infect a new dragon and adenovirus is very contagious so I gave her all the things I have used. It's so much better to toss if you know you had an positive dragon in or using things and start new with a dragon. Once positive equals always positive.
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Re: Re-Using an Old Tank After AV

Postby BadCon » Mon Jul 06, 2009 8:22 pm

Read some of my other posts, I know plenty about proper disinfection, and yes...bleach doesn't kill everything. Thats why I said to use the product that targets the bacteria/parasite/viri you are trying to kill. In this case, bleach is the best alternative when battling adeno, as far as I understand. If we were talking coccidia, I would recommend a 10% ammonia solution...as I have done very recently (read my other posts on similar subjects).
Alternatively, you could use a product like Roccal D+...which will kill all of the above. Its up to the end user to determine the what they are really after. I personally use Chlorhexidine, as while it doesn't kill coccidia, its much safer than bleach, ammonia, etc.

Also, if the surface is free of organic debri...I seriously doubt Adeno remains active for a year. And if you re-read above, I stated that organic debris/soils can harbor bacteria and viruses for much longer than they would last on a clean surface. I did a quick skowering of all the available data on reptile specific adeno...needless to say, not much data exists. So until I read a specific white paper looking at various strains of reptile adeno, and their pathology, I am going to have to go on whats available for similar viruses affecting various species. That said, this is moot....as we both instructed the OP to clean and disinfect the tank. Also, everyone knows to wash their hands between animals....

Either way, there is no point in arguing. Just be very careful when ever using bleach and ammonia during the same cleaning regime, as those two combined can kill you several different ways, all of which are unpleasent.
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