Genetic Side-effects of Morphs

Last week, whilst looking up an answer for a different topic/question, I came across a site that listed all the adverse genetic conditions attached to different morphs--the "downsides" so to speak. Unfortunately, (Like an idjit) I didn't immediately bookmark the page, and of course now I can't find it.

I've tried searches for bearded dragon genetic [conditions] (and a dozen or so variants) but no luck.

Anyone know of such a site or list?

Thanks

I've never seen a list like that.

I will say most people really dont understand genetics at all. And the people who actually do, understand that they dont know much either lol.

The only genetic mutation I'm aware of that we know actually causes issues due to the mutation itself, is silkbacks.

All other issues that I'm aware of are actually caused by selective breeding and inbreeding lines, not necessarily from the mutation itself.

Take the trans gene. For a long time transxtrans pairings were considered horrible practice as the babies often times were coming out deformed. But, this was also when the trans gene was relatively new in the hobby. At least new in the widespread sense of the word...
But, that could largely be attributed to the fact that bloodlines were weak. And genetics were all from the same lines. The same pairs of animals.

It's kind of what's happening right now with the zero and witblit morphs. Most responsible breeders are only breeding hetxhet or visxhet simply to strengthen bloodlines. There is no super mutation from visxvis in my examples. What there is is weak blood from inbreeding. In the future I'm sure visxvis in those two examples will be more common as hetxhet does good for introducing fresh new blood into the lines. The chances of inbreeding will be much lower.

TLDR it's not the mutation, it's the bloodline.

-Brandon

https://www.herebdragons.com/bearded-dragon-mutations

The often repeated myth is that if two trans dragons mate, the offspring will be weak, sickly, or have any one of a long list of health problems as juveniles, or appearing only when they become adults. None of this is true. But it has been repeated so many times that it is only natural that many people believe it is true.

There was a point many years ago when trans dragons were being overbred to produce dragons with a full body blue or purple tint. That project was eventually abandoned by breeders because those dragons did indeed have health issues.

That was a long time ago. The trans gene is now one of the oldest of the mutations, and has long since spread to every corner of the gene pool. Yet the myth continues to be repeated.

Click to expand...

-Brandon

I've seen information like what you mention ( much of the health issues come from inbreeding and very small genetic diversity in the morph populations , try A Guide to Australian Dragons in Captivity by Dr.Brown.

A very thorough book.

Thanks guys. I'm not crazy; there was a list--a half-dozen at least--and it was on a web page.

claudiusx":38gwf7fx said:

All other issues that I'm aware of are actually caused by selective breeding and inbreeding lines, not necessarily from the mutation itself.

Click to expand...

With the numbers of various morphs we're seeing, they're not just popping out randomly. They're being selectively bred and inbred.

Yes, there is confusion about this--much confusion. I've seen this article from Reptiles Magazine.
I also found the following article by a veterinarian with special knowledge of inbreeding, which I thought was excellent.
Inbreeding in Captive Reptile Populations

Good breeders know the circumstances under which inbreeding may be deemed acceptable, and take great care to determine the degree of genetic diversity in the populations of animals they are working with.

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The operative word here being Good.
The article goes on to say...

Unfortunately in the reptile community as a whole, this background knowledge of animal breeding concepts and best practice is frequently lacking in pet owners with very little knowledge due to inexperience keeping animals and very often subject to various myths and misunderstandings even from the so called experts in reptile breeding. All too often we hear and read opinions that inbreeding doesn’t affect reptiles, that it is fine to mate sibling to sibling/offspring to parent just once, or that a breeder has mated several generations of offspring to parents without any visible ill effects. The crucial word in this latter claim is ‘visible’.
I hope in this article to dispel some of these myths and misconceptions, as well as provide facts rather than opinion on why inbreeding in captive reptile populations is doing a tremendous damage to animal welfare and the hobby in general, the consequences of which we may not be able to see for some time to come.

So what are the consequences of inbreeding over time?

The consequences of inbreeding are often seen as positive to those deliberately breeding closely related reptiles in that new and attractive colour morphs or patterns can be produced. The production of new varieties and strains in captive reptile breeding has seen a massive rise in the value of individual animals, with rarity often determining extraordinary market price. One of the standard methods of producing such rarities is the use of line breeding or inbreeding once genetic aberrations appear in a population of animals. The reptile community has become more of an industry in recent years and a worrying trend of dismissing any criticism of inbreeding has emerged, with many wrongly assuming there are few if any negative consequences. The justification for this practice is, as in agricultural practice, based on human benefit rather than animal welfare and so it is important for the community and leaders in the industry to recognise and discuss the issue.

Click to expand...

There is SO much more in this article--a MUST READ, IMO.

Don't even get me started on this... "person" (and I use that term loosely).

Honestly I feel that the bearded dragon community as a whole is well aware of inbreeding, and the negativity associated with it. I'd say most owners are very much against it. The article makes it seem that most people don't think inbreeding is bad. I don't know what it's like in other communities, but I'd say dragon owners as a while are very cognizant and against inbreeding.

Take bloodbank dragons for instance. Once rumor got out that they were inbreeding (along with other things) public opinion of them tanked. I dont know if that's why they aren't around anymore really, but it definitely hurt them. They were one of the biggest breeders of high end morphs for years. It almost seemed like you HAD to go through them to get a fancy morph.

New breeders are aware of the court of public opinion. Practices most likely haven't changed, but i think end goals have. Most breeders now feel that if their number 1 priority is to produce stunning morphs and dragons, their second priority is to sell healthy ones. Hence, the hetxhet pairings, or the selective inbreeding to bring out a trait followed by generations of blood strengthening.

Anyways, I'm getting a bit off topic here lol.

-Brandon

Sounds to me like you're also contradicting yourself between early and last paragraphs.

Our conversations with breeders have (apparently) been very different. When we've directly asked some breeders the hard questions, we got as much squirming as a politician caught with hand in cookie jar. Others have been more candid--admitting, "that's how you get morphs" or "We don't inbreed".
Maybe some of the answers are prepared(?) :dontknow: (Yes, I know I'm a cynic :roll: )

I'm saying that I think most people know it happens and that's how morphs come to be, but most people expect that what they receive to have strong blood.

When you pair hetxhet a couple things happen.
Firstly, you get way fewer of the morph you're actually trying to get when compared to visxhet or visxvis. Secondly you're introducing fresh bloodlines to the bloodline you're trying to breed out. Essentially diluting the "bad blood" .

People understand that inbreeding happened down the line, but what most people expect is that enough strength and fresh bloodlines have been bred into the lines by the time they get their dragons.

That's why all the big breeders will list that their dragons are from hetxhet pairings. They know that people dont want the possible risk (or stigma) associated with inbreeding, and hetxhet pairings are just one way of strengthening the blood.

Look at some of the biggest breeders that are active right now. I almost promise you none of them are doing visxvis to any new morphs. Very few if any even do visxhet with new morphs.
And this is simply because they either understand the importance of strengthening the bloodline, or they understand the importance of public opinion.

I guess you could compare it to having to sit on a really dirty disgusting sofa. You probably dont want to. Lightly clean it once, you still might have some hesitation. The sofa is still kinda dirty. Clean it a few more times, it's getting pretty clean and you'll likely sit there now. Clean it even better and a few more times, you probably wouldnt even know it was ever that dirty disgusting sofa in the first place.
That's the morph market for you. Usually to start off a new morph like that, it's a dirty disgusting sofa. And people know that. But through enough responsible breeding (hetxhet or even visxnon-carrier) the bloodlines get more "acceptable" just as the sofa gets cleaner. Eventually, the sofa is so clean and the bloodlines so clean that there isnt much thought put to it.

So when I say people are against it, I mean it in the sense of my sofa analogy. No one wants the dirty sofa, they expect it to be clean and healthy by the time it comes for them to sit (buy a dragon).

And as far as you questioning breeders. That's what I'm talking about in regards to the court of public opinion.

If you ever change your mind and want a fancy morph, the best I cam suggest is to find out the genetics of the parents.

-Brandon

That is the weirdest, most bizarre analogy... :laughhard:

I'm not so ready to dismiss the conclusions of the article I linked to--I'm still looking into it.

Yeah I was oddly satisfied and confused with it at the same time.... LOL.

Either way, the longest living dragon I've ever had has been a normal morph. I've never raised a "fancy" morph its whole life yet. That's something only time and experience will show me. In the mean time, I'll still enjoy my crew and do what needs to be done to keep them healthy.

-Brandon