Baby beardie's eyes closed

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Baby beardie's eyes closed

Postby Alle » Mon Jun 17, 2019 1:43 am

Hello!
I've bought a baby bearded dragon two days ago (I was told it's one month old, but it seems to have only two/three weeks). After a three hour drive with the beardie, I noticed when I got home that it had it's eyes closed. They are still closed,in two days it didn't open them once. There is a membrane-like ?coming out of them.
It also didn't eat anything but a small cricket the day I got it and only drunk a very bit of water that I dripped near his mouth.
The breeder I got it from doesn't think it shedded yet (as I've read this could be an after-shedding problem)
As I said, it had the issue before getting in his tank, but I don't remember wether his eyes were like this when I got it( i probably would've noticed)
Does anyone know what I could do to help the little guy? There is no vet specialized in this anywhere near my city
Image
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Re: Baby beardie's eyes closed

Postby MorganaTheSatyr » Mon Jun 17, 2019 2:11 am

Heya, could it be that its keeping its eyes closed because its still very young? Have you got the right lighting set up? (Heat lamp and UVB?) I'd give it a couple of days until it settles down in its new home.
Could you try to re upload the image as there's an error.
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Re: Baby beardie's eyes closed

Postby Alle » Mon Jun 17, 2019 3:43 am

I have a heating lamp, at the right distance, it has light 12/14 hours a day but I haven't managed to get a UVB bulb just yet (I will only get it tomorrow), but I kept him in the sun (half of the tank exposed) for a few hours daily to get as much UV as possible until tomorrow.
I did think it might be cause it is too young but I googled images of beardies at about three weeks and their eyes are open (if google images is a reliable source)
Image
https://imgur.com/4Z9SaTv

(Here u can see how big he is compared to my hand, if the image works)
Image
https://imgur.com/9KTRvem
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Re: Baby beardie's eyes closed

Postby MorganaTheSatyr » Mon Jun 17, 2019 3:56 am

Aw he's so precious! <3
I did a quick google search - eye problems are usually an indication of inefficient lighting - so knowing you don't have uvb installed yet could be the issue. Leaving your dragon;s tank partly out isn't going to do much as of yet. I understand that it might be a hassle to leave what ur doing and hunt for a tube but it would be for the best. (more so since its such a young baby!)
As what has been recommended on this site - go for a Reptisun 10.0 uvb tube that should be fixed along the entire length of the tank:
https://www.beardeddragon.org/articles/ ... ting-help/
(BUT, if you don't manage to find, anything is better than nothing - I got my dragon at 4 months old and started out with a coiled uvb noticed the errors and fixed it, but at least there is a UVB intake)

Regarding that gunk around the eyes, I'm not too keen on advice as I havent had any hatchlings and so I'm limited on that information, I hope one of the senior posters can have a look and see.
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Re: Baby beardie's eyes closed

Postby kingofnobbys » Mon Jun 17, 2019 5:01 am

I suggest you very gently while it's still inside it's tank, pick it up … if it's not used to being handled it'll immediately respond by leaping off you hands and trying to get away ==> prove it's not too sick to move.

If this fails to get a response , flip it over onto it's back , dragons do not like being on their back as they have trouble breathing , it should try to right it's pretty much immediately.

If the above two tests fail to get a response it's either
>> too cold --- check the following temperatures using a digital thermometer
(cool zone air temperature , warm zone air temperature, basking spot temperature)
or
>> too hot and it's suffering extreme thermal stress and lost it's locomotor abilities (VERY BAD !)

see viewtopic.php?f=5&t=233516
Good temperatures for a hatchling bearded dragon are
basking spot air temperature NOT HOTTER THAN 40 degC
warm zone air temperature 35 degC
cool zone air temperatures 30 degC.

or
>> very sick (VERY BAD ---> need the help of reptile vet
or
>> dead.

Such a young dragon should be alert , actively thermoregulating , and feeding on suitable sized LIVE insects 3 times per day.
CBDs: Cleopatra & Caesar born 28Jan19.
Puff (RIP 10Dec15),Rex (RIP 16Mar17),Toothless (RIP 26Nov17).Peppa (RIP 22Mar19).
EBTSs : George & Mildred (born july 2010).
EWSs : new rescues Gutzy (F) 27Sep19, juvenile Cheakie (M) 21Oct19
Fluffy (F) rescued injured by lawnwacker 14Nov17, Wriggles (F) - injured rescue, over 8 yrs old, RIP 2Feb16 old age. Lucky juvenile (M) - cat attack rescue (lost r-eye, broken r-lower jaw), fatal SI RIP 21Jul2010.
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Re: Baby beardie's eyes closed

Postby kingofnobbys » Mon Jun 17, 2019 5:05 am

Alle wrote:I have a heating lamp, at the right distance, it has light 12/14 hours a day but I haven't managed to get a UVB bulb just yet (I will only get it tomorrow), but I kept him in the sun (half of the tank exposed) for a few hours daily to get as much UV as possible until tomorrow.
I did think it might be cause it is too young but I googled images of beardies at about three weeks and their eyes are open (if google images is a reliable source)

<<< unfortunately virtually zero UVA or UVB penetrates through window glass or the glass used in fish tanks / reptile tanks , and this is compounded by the fact that only 50% of the remaining UVA & UVB is allowed through flyscreens.
So the dragon has been getting zero UVA and zero UVB.


Image
https://imgur.com/4Z9SaTv

(Here u can see how big he is compared to my hand, if the image works)
Image
https://imgur.com/9KTRvem
CBDs: Cleopatra & Caesar born 28Jan19.
Puff (RIP 10Dec15),Rex (RIP 16Mar17),Toothless (RIP 26Nov17).Peppa (RIP 22Mar19).
EBTSs : George & Mildred (born july 2010).
EWSs : new rescues Gutzy (F) 27Sep19, juvenile Cheakie (M) 21Oct19
Fluffy (F) rescued injured by lawnwacker 14Nov17, Wriggles (F) - injured rescue, over 8 yrs old, RIP 2Feb16 old age. Lucky juvenile (M) - cat attack rescue (lost r-eye, broken r-lower jaw), fatal SI RIP 21Jul2010.
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Re: Baby beardie's eyes closed

Postby Alle » Mon Jun 17, 2019 5:05 am

MorganaTheSatyr wrote:Aw he's so precious! <3
I did a quick google search - eye problems are usually an indication of inefficient lighting - so knowing you don't have uvb installed yet could be the issue. Leaving your dragon;s tank partly out isn't going to do much as of yet. I understand that it might be a hassle to leave what ur doing and hunt for a tube but it would be for the best. (more so since its such a young baby!)
As what has been recommended on this site - go for a Reptisun 10.0 uvb tube that should be fixed along the entire length of the tank:
https://www.beardeddragon.org/articles/ ... ting-help/
(BUT, if you don't manage to find, anything is better than nothing - I got my dragon at 4 months old and started out with a coiled uvb noticed the errors and fixed it, but at least there is a UVB intake)

Regarding that gunk around the eyes, I'm not too keen on advice as I havent had any hatchlings and so I'm limited on that information, I hope one of the senior posters can have a look and see.


But is it possible for such symptoms to appear in such a short time?(around 3 hours) Assuming it was fine when I got it.
I can only get the UVB bulb tomorrow cause the pet shops are closed today sigh
Alle
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Re: Baby beardie's eyes closed

Postby Alle » Mon Jun 17, 2019 5:18 am

kingofnobbys wrote:I suggest you very gently while it's still inside it's tank, pick it up … if it's not used to being handled it'll immediately respond by leaping off you hands and trying to get away ==> prove it's not too sick to move.

If this fails to get a response , flip it over onto it's back , dragons do not like being on their back as they have trouble breathing , it should try to right it's pretty much immediately.

If the above two tests fail to get a response it's either
>> too cold --- check the following temperatures using a digital thermometer
(cool zone air temperature , warm zone air temperature, basking spot temperature)
or
>> too hot and it's suffering extreme thermal stress and lost it's locomotor abilities (VERY BAD !)

see viewtopic.php?f=5&t=233516
Good temperatures for a hatchling bearded dragon are
basking spot air temperature NOT HOTTER THAN 40 degC
warm zone air temperature 35 degC
cool zone air temperatures 30 degC.

or
>> very sick (VERY BAD ---> need the help of reptile vet
or
>> dead.

Such a young dragon should be alert , actively thermoregulating , and feeding on suitable sized LIVE insects 3 times per day.


I handled it quite a bit, he is responsive, moves in my hand, gets on it, etc but the only movement inside the tank he does is when moving from his basking spot to the cooler sides. He did not eat any vegetables or crickets (only the first day I got it, ate a cricket) and doesn't seem intetested or responsive when I try offer him his food. Could it be just the stress of moving? He was kept with other beardies before I got him.
I also noticed a bit of progress regarding his activity.

Edit: I kept him on the balcony, with no lid. He got direct sunlight (at 12 am, so the sunlight didnt come from the sides for a bit). But I will get the UVB bulb asap
Alle
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Re: Baby beardie's eyes closed

Postby MorganaTheSatyr » Mon Jun 17, 2019 5:52 am

It could be stress from relocation, plus the lack of lighting won't help.
Dw you're doing the best you can! Tomorrow get the lighting and fix it up and you should see changes happen within the hours hopefully! S/he might still be off food but that again could be because of the move.
It's tricky to adjust a baby beardie to a new environment esp a hatchling - you're doing the best you can though :)

It's a good sign that he's moving! Has his/her eyes opened much or?
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Re: Baby beardie's eyes closed

Postby kingofnobbys » Mon Jun 17, 2019 6:01 am

Alle wrote:I have a heating lamp, at the right distance, it has light 12/14 hours a day but I haven't managed to get a UVB bulb just yet (I will only get it tomorrow), but I kept him in the sun (half of the tank exposed) for a few hours daily to get as much UV as possible until tomorrow.
I did think it might be cause it is too young but I googled images of beardies at about three weeks and their eyes are open (if google images is a reliable source)
Image
https://imgur.com/4Z9SaTv

>>> your photo of his eye reposted as it doesn't come up using imgur
Image
if both eyes are like this , this is a very sick hatchling and it's suffering some form of advanced conjunctivitis and it's essentially blind with it's eyes in this very bad state of infection.
You should not have been allowed to buy the hatchling in this condition.
It IS NOT shedding related.
Conjunctivitis can be viral, bacterial, or fungal or a combination of these and is HIGHLY CONTAGEOUS and easily spread to other reptiles.
I WOULD STRONGLY ADVISE AGAINST home remedies at this stage , some will suggest using raw honey on the eyes ( diluted in an equal volume of water) , I think the eye infection is very advanced and past honey being effective , in fact honey mixed with water may make the infection worse if this is fungal.
I STRONGLY ADVISE your find a local reptile certified vet and have them take a swab and work out what kind of conjunctivitis you are dealing with , and from this the vet can prescribe the most effective med (eye ointment / drops ) to use to defeat this infection.


(Here u can see how big he is compared to my hand, if the image works)
Image
https://imgur.com/9KTRvem


>>> repost of your image of the size of the hatchling
Image
Looks like both eyes are bad.

I'd say this hatchling is about 6 weeks old .
I recommend you weigh it on a set of scales that can measure with a resolution of 0.05g

Being so small, this dragon will not survive very long if it's not getting food and moisture past it's lips at 3 times per day.
Being so small it has no fat reserves and a much higher metabolic rate cf adult bearded dragons.

It isn't eating because
1) it is feeling very sick
2) it is very weak from little or no food for too long
3) It is essentially blind and unable to see it's food , let along hunt it's feeder insects and catch them.

You have no option but to assist feed this poor little hatchling. This means getting messy and hand feeding it USING YOUR FINGERS, you need to get enough of the insect each time past the lips to elicit a feeding response.
Here are some tips on how to do this :
viewtopic.php?f=18&t=235583
and more tips here :
viewtopic.php?f=18&t=249501

Suitable feeder insects include these that are highly nutritious and don't need to be dusted or gut loaded :
house fly lavae & pupae
blow fly lavae & pupae
black soldier fly lave & pupae
I'd suggest small (1" long) silkworms but these may be impractical while the hatchling is essentially blind , but are worth a try , you'll need to place the rear end of the silkworm inbetween the hatchling's lips while it's still chewing another insect - will take good timing.

and these insects that are excellent feeder insects that DO need to be gutloaded and dusted with calcium powder and vitamin powder :
crickets (I'd suggest 20 day old 1/5 to 1/4 size crickets based on the size of the dragon in your photo)
roaches (I'd suggest under 7 mm long)
locusts (see above)

You can try dabbling a droplet of honey on the hatchlings lips under it's nose , this is likely to get it licking , and help get the chosen feeder insect into it's mouth.

Monitor it's weight closely , at least weekly , to ensure it's getting enough nutrition to grow .

Don't worry about trying to get this sick little hatchling to eat veg and salad. It will get these via the gutloaded insects.

Consider getting hold of some feeding gear ( 1ml or 5ml syringe and syringe nozzle would be good to have on hand ) , and some HerpaBoost or VetaFarm Reptile CrittaCare liquid food , or Oxbow Carnivore / Insectivore Critical Care mix. You may need to resort to using one of these high potency liquid food slurries given orally very slowly (dropwise by depositing on it's lips/ snout) if it will not take insects by hand or this handfeeding (intensive care feeding) is too much for you.

A big benefit of handfeeding is you will know exactly what the hatchling has eaten and when, and it's a fabulous way to bond with a dragon.
CBDs: Cleopatra & Caesar born 28Jan19.
Puff (RIP 10Dec15),Rex (RIP 16Mar17),Toothless (RIP 26Nov17).Peppa (RIP 22Mar19).
EBTSs : George & Mildred (born july 2010).
EWSs : new rescues Gutzy (F) 27Sep19, juvenile Cheakie (M) 21Oct19
Fluffy (F) rescued injured by lawnwacker 14Nov17, Wriggles (F) - injured rescue, over 8 yrs old, RIP 2Feb16 old age. Lucky juvenile (M) - cat attack rescue (lost r-eye, broken r-lower jaw), fatal SI RIP 21Jul2010.
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Re: Baby beardie's eyes closed

Postby kingofnobbys » Mon Jun 17, 2019 6:07 am

Alle wrote:
kingofnobbys wrote:I suggest you very gently while it's still inside it's tank, pick it up … if it's not used to being handled it'll immediately respond by leaping off you hands and trying to get away ==> prove it's not too sick to move.

If this fails to get a response , flip it over onto it's back , dragons do not like being on their back as they have trouble breathing , it should try to right it's pretty much immediately.

If the above two tests fail to get a response it's either
>> too cold --- check the following temperatures using a digital thermometer
(cool zone air temperature , warm zone air temperature, basking spot temperature)
or
>> too hot and it's suffering extreme thermal stress and lost it's locomotor abilities (VERY BAD !)

see viewtopic.php?f=5&t=233516
Good temperatures for a hatchling bearded dragon are
basking spot air temperature NOT HOTTER THAN 40 degC
warm zone air temperature 35 degC
cool zone air temperatures 30 degC.

or
>> very sick (VERY BAD ---> need the help of reptile vet
or
>> dead.

Such a young dragon should be alert , actively thermoregulating , and feeding on suitable sized LIVE insects 3 times per day.


I handled it quite a bit, he is responsive, moves in my hand, gets on it, etc but the only movement inside the tank he does is when moving from his basking spot to the cooler sides. He did not eat any vegetables or crickets (only the first day I got it, ate a cricket) and doesn't seem intetested or responsive when I try offer him his food. Could it be just the stress of moving? He was kept with other beardies before I got him.
<<< I posted that response before working out how to see your images.
What you've reported is a good sign - it's well enough to thermoregulate and be responsive when handled :)
The relocation stress will be contributing , but not the cause of the infected eyes. This hatchling was sold to you while sick.
It's not feeding by itself because it CAN NOT SEE it's feeder insects with it's eye's in this condition.
.


I also noticed a bit of progress regarding his activity.

Edit: I kept him on the balcony, with no lid. He got direct sunlight (at 12 am, so the sunlight didnt come from the sides for a bit). But I will get the UVB bulb asap


T5HO 12% UVB tube about 2/3 the length of the tank with a reflector hood is your best option.
Try to set up the basking spot about 30cm from the T5HO 12% UVB tube IF it's under the mesh lid.
If it's ONTOP mesh , this distance is halved.
CBDs: Cleopatra & Caesar born 28Jan19.
Puff (RIP 10Dec15),Rex (RIP 16Mar17),Toothless (RIP 26Nov17).Peppa (RIP 22Mar19).
EBTSs : George & Mildred (born july 2010).
EWSs : new rescues Gutzy (F) 27Sep19, juvenile Cheakie (M) 21Oct19
Fluffy (F) rescued injured by lawnwacker 14Nov17, Wriggles (F) - injured rescue, over 8 yrs old, RIP 2Feb16 old age. Lucky juvenile (M) - cat attack rescue (lost r-eye, broken r-lower jaw), fatal SI RIP 21Jul2010.
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Re: Baby beardie's eyes closed

Postby Alle » Tue Jun 18, 2019 1:53 pm

Hello
Sorry for the late reply
So I've managed to feed him some powdered and gutloaded crickets (not enough) and give him some water. It is impossibly hard, as he is barely 4 inches and I'm scared I might hurt him while trying to force open his mouth. I used the honey trick and it worked for a few crickets and I did the same trick but with water. Unfortunately I can't afford any liquid food and there is no one that sells it in my country (Romania). I'll keep trying to hand feed him.
I haven't found a specialized vet anywhere closer than 200 km, but a vet recommended eye drops which might or might not work (trying to have hope), as they are only for bacterial conjunctivities and the vet couldn't determine via images what type it is.
Also a few minutes ago I tried to feed him again (I failed) and while trying to open his mouth (gently, with my finger), this happened:
Image
A piece of his cheek skin came off. Could it be shedding? Or did I hurt it? He is also bulging his eyes a lot (the first time scared me to death).
Thank you for all the support and instructions! It means a lot for this newbie
I'll keep doing my best and hope the little guy will be okay.
Alle
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Re: Baby beardie's eyes closed

Postby kingofnobbys » Wed Jun 19, 2019 3:49 am

Alle wrote:Hello
Sorry for the late reply
So I've managed to feed him some powdered and gutloaded crickets (not enough) and give him some water. It is impossibly hard, as he is barely 4 inches and I'm scared I might hurt him while trying to force open his mouth. I used the honey trick and it worked for a few crickets and I did the same trick but with water. Unfortunately I can't afford any liquid food and there is no one that sells it in my country (Romania). I'll keep trying to hand feed him.

>> it's good that you managed get some food into the little sick hatchling.
Some is better than none at all.

Regarding the liquid foods , try EBAY and don't restrict yourself to Romania, you are in or right next door to the EU and there will be heaps of places on Ebay who sell these critical care foods online .
https://www.ebay.com.au/sch/i.html?_fro ... _PrefLoc=2


I haven't found a specialized vet anywhere closer than 200 km, but a vet recommended eye drops which might or might not work (trying to have hope), as they are only for bacterial conjunctivities and the vet couldn't determine via images what type it is.
Also a few minutes ago I tried to feed him again (I failed) and while trying to open his mouth (gently, with my finger), this happened:
Image
A piece of his cheek skin came off. Could it be shedding? Or did I hurt it? He is also bulging his eyes a lot (the first time scared me to death).

<<< if the eyeballs are bulging off and one TEMPORARILY ==> a shed is coming .

<<< if they are bulging permanently ==> health problems.

Thank you for all the support and instructions! It means a lot for this newbie
I'll keep doing my best and hope the little guy will be okay.
CBDs: Cleopatra & Caesar born 28Jan19.
Puff (RIP 10Dec15),Rex (RIP 16Mar17),Toothless (RIP 26Nov17).Peppa (RIP 22Mar19).
EBTSs : George & Mildred (born july 2010).
EWSs : new rescues Gutzy (F) 27Sep19, juvenile Cheakie (M) 21Oct19
Fluffy (F) rescued injured by lawnwacker 14Nov17, Wriggles (F) - injured rescue, over 8 yrs old, RIP 2Feb16 old age. Lucky juvenile (M) - cat attack rescue (lost r-eye, broken r-lower jaw), fatal SI RIP 21Jul2010.
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