Baby beardie has coccidia 3grams , 4.5 inches

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Baby beardie has coccidia 3grams , 4.5 inches

Postby PetLover2018 » Sat Jan 05, 2019 8:09 am

Hi all,
I have a beardie that is sick. :( To cut the long story short (Because the story is very long), I got two bearded dragons on 19/12/18. The reason why I got two is because I fell in love with them and I was getting a massive tank and stuff and though they'd love being together. Anyway, I traveled 3 hours to get them. Ended up getting two baby dragons from the petstore, one of them although looked very small and lethargic but I was new to it all and probably should have known better. One of them is sick, the other one is perfectly fine.
So here it goes, my little one, Pixie. The pet store told me they feed her every 2 days and shes a good eater.. Obviously when i brought her home she had no interest what so ever to eat, or even lift her head. So I waited 2 days just in case she was stressed, then brought her to an exotic vet. He gave her an antibiotic shot, and told me her stool sample showed high growth of coccidia, and pin worms also. So then we started her on treatment for it, Sulfatrim drops. Which she takes every other day.
Anyway, so she is on
1. Reptaboost 3 baths a day
2. She is on Chloramphenicol 1% eye ointment 2 times a day
3. Sulfatrim drops every other day
4. Critical care formula, and baby food 2-3 times a day (with some added calcium).

So we've been to the vet 3 times, last on 3/1/19, shes gotten 3 antibiotic shots at this stage. Its been a week on the Sulfatrim drops, 3 weeks on the baths, critical care formula, baby food and the eye ointment. She was very alert few days ago, and then now became lethargic again, sleeps all day really, but does move sometimes around her basking spot. Her eye also had some old shed as the vet told me on it, so he started her on the ointment, and it actually worked. But few days ago the right eye lid became swollen which is new. Sometimes i really think shes dead cuz shes not moving :/ But then she comes around again. Like if i pick her up gently, she climbs on my finger etc, and sometimes jumps too. But sleeps for most of the time anyway, often completely flat on the log, but has been a little bit better since her treatments. To make things worse her latest poops are just baby food, which the vet told me isnt great which means she isnt digesting her food.
When i first got her, you can imagine how stressed i was.... now i got a hang of things.. But the reason why im posting is, i just want some opinions fired my way. Should I keep going? is it too much for the beardie, is she suffering.. Now she is fed via syringe, so I do have to force feed sometimes when she doesnt eat. Also her size - she is extremely small.. As i mentioned above, I should have known better... They told me she wasnt sick and she just had a slow metabolism. Im so stupid :(
She is 3 grams, and in 3 weeks that I have her she is still 3, Im trying so hard but nothing is working :( She is 4.5 inches long.. no change in that also.
Me and the vet spoke about it, and obviously the parasites feed on the food i give her, so hence no growth. But.. He said the whole treatment for coccidia is 3 weeks, were now on week 2. Hopefully start seeing some changes soon :( She has no interest in eating crickets... She looks at it as if shes interested, but goes back to sleep then..

Just a quick info, I was in touch with the person who sold me Pixie. They also told me actually that she is 12 weeks old.. f... liers... He offered to take her away and give me a new dragon, after ive been looking after her for more than 2 weeks , so the answer was obviously a no. So she may die on my watch, but alteast I know she was loved and I did everything I could.
And also, I separated her from the other beardie, were getting his stool tested, incase he got it from her, so he may need treatment as well. She has her own 3 ft tank, with 75w basking light +75% intense, temp ranking around 40c, UVB light but not sure which one tbh, and little log to bask on and obviously water bowl food bowl etc, she climbs into water bowl sometimes and sits there.

I will try post some pictures of her now and her viv.

Thank you for all your help.
Last edited by PetLover2018 on Sat Jan 05, 2019 8:28 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Baby beardie has coccidia 3grams , 4.5 inches

Postby KarrieRee » Sat Jan 05, 2019 8:19 am

So sorry to hear about your little one- I would change her over to dubias-- the crickets are what gave her the parasites to begin w/ I am guessing- please PM Tracie Drache613 and see what advice she can give you

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Re: Baby beardie has coccidia 3grams , 4.5 inches

Postby PetLover2018 » Sat Jan 05, 2019 8:30 am

KarrieRee wrote:So sorry to hear about your little one- I would change her over to dubias-- the crickets are what gave her the parasites to begin w/ I am guessing- please PM Tracie Drache613 and see what advice she can give you

Karrie


Hi Karrie, thank you for your reply. Once (if) she starts feeding I will try but she only eats formula, baby food atm. And shes probably only had few crickets id imagine in all her lifetime. The vet is guessing shes about 4 weeks old if even I dont know :/
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Re: Baby beardie has coccidia 3grams , 4.5 inches

Postby KarrieRee » Sat Jan 05, 2019 8:35 am

Well I hope she can bounce back - did they say anything about keeping her tank warmer? Hopefully w/ all your doing for her / him they will start getting better-- so many stories I have read that w / all the people do to help them they just arent strong enough to pull thru--- good luck and please keep us informed on her/ his progress-- :(

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Re: Baby beardie has coccidia 3grams , 4.5 inches

Postby kingofnobbys » Sat Jan 05, 2019 8:54 am

She's tiny.

Please PLEASE , invest in a couple of tubs about 60L capacity and set them up as individual rearing and hospital tubs , the pair MUST BE SEPARATED to ensure both get sufficient feeder insects and UV and heat and remain stress free as possible.
This is how I set my rearing tubs : viewtopic.php?f=34&t=233480 , you can set the tubs either in side by side configuration or stacked configuration.
If side by side you will only need one t5ho 12% tube and hood & one basking globe which can be shared , works very well if there are no other animals in the house.
If there are other animals in the house - I recommend stacking the tubs and in this case using 26W UVB200 & ExoTerra Nanohood and suitable spot globes as basking globes.

The one who the vet says has coccidia needs to be on paper toweling until at least the vet tells you it's paracite free (this will make it very easy to keep the paracites from reinfecting it from it's own poos.

I doubt the coccidia came from the crickets , more likely they came from poor husbandry at the breeder or at the shop before you bought the pair, if one has coccidia, it's highly the other does too.

Can you please show up the two hatchlings (side by side so we can see the size difference). The slower growth is most likely more to do with the larger being a more aggressive feeder and taking the lion's share of the insects. Hence separating the pair.

I suggest if you are going to change feeder insects consider slower moving insects such as housefly gents , blowfly gents , medium sized BSF lavae , suitable sized silkworms (0.5 " to 1" long will be OK).
Keep the roaches and crickets or locusts smaller than the space between her eyes.
It's OK to handfeed a reluctant feeder , here is how : viewtopic.php?f=18&t=235583
CBDs: Puff (M)(RIP 10Dec2015),Rex (F)(RIP 16Mar2017),Toothless (M)(RIP 26Nov2017).Peppa (F) (born 15Nov2015).
EBTSs : George & Mildred (born july 2010).
EWSs : Lucky (M)(wild juvenile), cat attack rescue, fatal SI RIP 21Jul2010.Wriggles (F)(rescued injured),thought she was a big lizard, over 8 yrs old, died in her sleep, RIP 2Feb2016). Fluffy (F) 4y old when rescued 14Nov2017 my little livewire , ubertame, thriving and very happy .
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Re: Baby beardie has coccidia 3grams , 4.5 inches

Postby AHBD » Sat Jan 05, 2019 10:40 am

Hi there, so sorry to hear this. :( I've raised many babies and I agree with the other poster, set her up in her own tank ASAP. Here is a sample of how I used to set up the babies that I hatched, of course cage decor can vary this was just a simple set up :


https://www.beardeddragon.org/useruploa ... _large.jpg

It's just a medium plastic storage tote with lights on top , the tote is short so a sick baby will not be too far from the uvb + heat.

Next, no more injections ! I'm surprised she's still alive. This vet seems clueless, baby's don't need constant painful injections along with dewormer medication. I am astounded. Next, stop the 3 baths . To add to this poor things stress + pain she is getting dunked for nothing. She will get all the nutrients + hydration from the syringe feeding. A bath every other day is fine at the most.

The sulfa drops are very harsh + will possibly damage the kidneys. Use toltrazuril instead, it's a much better anti-coccidial med. and it usually works in just 2-3 doses ! Not 3 long weeks of the other harsh stuff. Here's where to order it and it comes with dosing instructions :


http://www.beardeddragon.co/index.php?r ... uct_id=246
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Re: Baby beardie has coccidia 3grams , 4.5 inches

Postby PetLover2018 » Sat Jan 05, 2019 11:52 am

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She has a swollen right eye lid, and both of my tanks are tiled now, no more wood chippings.
Last edited by PetLover2018 on Sat Jan 05, 2019 11:58 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Baby beardie has coccidia 3grams , 4.5 inches

Postby PetLover2018 » Sat Jan 05, 2019 11:56 am

AHBD wrote:Hi there, so sorry to hear this. :( I've raised many babies and I agree with the other poster, set her up in her own tank ASAP. Here is a sample of how I used to set up the babies that I hatched, of course cage decor can vary this was just a simple set up :


https://www.beardeddragon.org/useruploa ... _large.jpg

It's just a medium plastic storage tote with lights on top , the tote is short so a sick baby will not be too far from the uvb + heat.

Next, no more injections ! I'm surprised she's still alive. This vet seems clueless, baby's don't need constant painful injections along with dewormer medication. I am astounded. Next, stop the 3 baths . To add to this poor things stress + pain she is getting dunked for nothing. She will get all the nutrients + hydration from the syringe feeding. A bath every other day is fine at the most.

The sulfa drops are very harsh + will possibly damage the kidneys. Use toltrazuril instead, it's a much better anti-coccidial med. and it usually works in just 2-3 doses ! Not 3 long weeks of the other harsh stuff. Here's where to order it and it comes with dosing instructions :


http://www.beardeddragon.co/index.php?r ... uct_id=246



Hi, thanks for your reply. Im going by what the vet tells me, I brought her to a good vet, its private and people are very good, I do like to think that for the money im paying them shes getting the best treatment :( She was getting weekly injections :( AS she also had eye infection ,parasites and pin worms :/ She also seems to love her baths, and often drinks Repaboost which i thought is good.
She is in her own tank now its 3 ft, I seperated them a while ago already. Ive spent so much money on it all already tbh, is 3ft tank not enough for her? should i get the tote? but then ill need to get all new accessories again as mine are all screwed in her viv. Ive put up some pictures of her. Plus im in Ireland and I dont think the vet has access to that medicine.
Last edited by PetLover2018 on Sat Jan 05, 2019 12:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Baby beardie has coccidia 3grams , 4.5 inches

Postby PetLover2018 » Sat Jan 05, 2019 12:02 pm

kingofnobbys wrote:She's tiny.

Please PLEASE , invest in a couple of tubs about 60L capacity and set them up as individual rearing and hospital tubs , the pair MUST BE SEPARATED to ensure both get sufficient feeder insects and UV and heat and remain stress free as possible.
This is how I set my rearing tubs : viewtopic.php?f=34&t=233480 , you can set the tubs either in side by side configuration or stacked configuration.
If side by side you will only need one t5ho 12% tube and hood & one basking globe which can be shared , works very well if there are no other animals in the house.
If there are other animals in the house - I recommend stacking the tubs and in this case using 26W UVB200 & ExoTerra Nanohood and suitable spot globes as basking globes.

The one who the vet says has coccidia needs to be on paper toweling until at least the vet tells you it's paracite free (this will make it very easy to keep the paracites from reinfecting it from it's own poos.

I doubt the coccidia came from the crickets , more likely they came from poor husbandry at the breeder or at the shop before you bought the pair, if one has coccidia, it's highly the other does too.

Can you please show up the two hatchlings (side by side so we can see the size difference). The slower growth is most likely more to do with the larger being a more aggressive feeder and taking the lion's share of the insects. Hence separating the pair.

I suggest if you are going to change feeder insects consider slower moving insects such as housefly gents , blowfly gents , medium sized BSF lavae , suitable sized silkworms (0.5 " to 1" long will be OK).
Keep the roaches and crickets or locusts smaller than the space between her eyes.
It's OK to handfeed a reluctant feeder , here is how : viewtopic.php?f=18&t=235583


Hi, thanks for your reply. So Ive seperated them already a while ago, last week when the vet told me about coccidia. And im getting the stool of the other beardie tested. She seems to be more of a hatchling than the other beardie, the other one is a good size. Tbh I like crickets, the healthy beardie (Rocky) loves them. But the wee little one (Pixie) has no energy to eat them. I have uploaded some pictures so you can see her better, do you suggest getting a tub for her? Will i need to get more accessories? She has log sort of a thing in her viv which she basks on. Yes the vet told me it was from bad hygiene at breeding place, its so sickening how some people breed these poor little things and make them so sick.
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Re: Baby beardie has coccidia 3grams , 4.5 inches

Postby AHBD » Sat Jan 05, 2019 12:28 pm

She is definitely a hatchling, mine hatched out at 4-4.5 inches usually. Your set up for her is fine as long as they are separated. You just have to be sure that the baby can stay close enough to the basking + uvb.

And if she drinks the Reptaboost in the bath that's fine, but I guarantee you that 3 times a day is way overkill, no more than once a day. And eye infections + pinworms don't require injections, just some ointment like Terramycin for the eye and panacur for the worms. I'm really glad that she's surviving so far but all the needles + meds. will kill her appetite. Constanly being wet 3 times a day makes it much harder for her to regulate her temp. and puts her at risk for a respiratory infection and is probably behind the eye infection. I understand your loyalty to your vet but I have seen many vets cause serious injury + death to dragons right here on this forum. Best wishes, poor thing is going through the ringer.

Oh, one more thing. You can use raw honey mixed with a bit of warm water for any eye infection. Used it for one of my hatchlings and it cleared right up.
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Re: Baby beardie has coccidia 3grams , 4.5 inches

Postby PetLover2018 » Sat Jan 05, 2019 1:14 pm

AHBD wrote:She is definitely a hatchling, mine hatched out at 4-4.5 inches usually. Your set up for her is fine as long as they are separated. You just have to be sure that the baby can stay close enough to the basking + uvb.

And if she drinks the Reptaboost in the bath that's fine, but I guarantee you that 3 times a day is way overkill, no more than once a day. And eye infections + pinworms don't require injections, just some ointment like Terramycin for the eye and panacur for the worms. I'm really glad that she's surviving so far but all the needles + meds. will kill her appetite. Constanly being wet 3 times a day makes it much harder for her to regulate her temp. and puts her at risk for a respiratory infection and is probably behind the eye infection. I understand your loyalty to your vet but I have seen many vets cause serious injury + death to dragons right here on this forum. Best wishes, poor thing is going through the ringer.

Oh, one more thing. You can use raw honey mixed with a bit of warm water for any eye infection. Used it for one of my hatchlings and it cleared right up.


Yes I see what you mean about her being wet 3 times a day, see she was so dehydrated when i got her, but now ill reduce it once a day. Hopefully no more injections, i have another app next thursday and ill say it to him and see what he says. I will attach a photo with her set up, i have a feeling her uvb light is maybe too far from her? shes not directly under it. Yeah she is 4.5 inches, but now ive had her for nearly 3 weeks and shes still the same size :( [Click image to enlarge]
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Re: Baby beardie has coccidia 3grams , 4.5 inches

Postby AHBD » Sat Jan 05, 2019 1:20 pm

What type of uvb bulb do you have ? It probably is too far away. And I do admire your dedication to helping this little tyke, it's obvious that you care very much. I know you want very much to help the sweet little one. :)

BTW, if you can't figure a way to lower the uvb you might go with a low watt MVB [ mercury vapor bulb ] that gives off both heat AND uvb. You could put it in place of the basking bulb. Here's the best brand :

http://www.lightyourreptiles.com/80-wat ... -240-volt/
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Re: Baby beardie has coccidia 3grams , 4.5 inches

Postby PetLover2018 » Sat Jan 05, 2019 5:49 pm

AHBD wrote:What type of uvb bulb do you have ? It probably is too far away. And I do admire your dedication to helping this little tyke, it's obvious that you care very much. I know you want very much to help the sweet little one. :)

BTW, if you can't figure a way to lower the uvb you might go with a low watt MVB [ mercury vapor bulb ] that gives off both heat AND uvb. You could put it in place of the basking bulb. Here's the best brand :

http://www.lightyourreptiles.com/80-wat ... -240-volt/



Thanks, yes I really want her to get better and im hoping she is not suffering by being alive :/ Yes i think i will look into getting that bulb, thanks! :)
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Re: Baby beardie has coccidia 3grams , 4.5 inches

Postby kingofnobbys » Sat Jan 05, 2019 9:41 pm

PetLover2018 wrote:[Click image to enlarge]

[Click image to enlarge]

[Click image to enlarge]


She has a swollen right eye lid, and both of my tanks are tiled now, no more wood chippings.


I'd line the tiles a few layers of kitchen grade absorbant paper toweling (comes on wide roll , you'll likely have some in the pantry or under the sink).
This applies to both dragons. Makes for very easy cleanup and is easier on their limb joints.

The pair definitely needed to be separated immediately , the size difference is big enough that the the smaller hatchling risks being eaten or seriously injured by the larger attacking it and biting it (very common for this to happen - this is how legs , arms , tails are bitten off, and the larger one is capable of crushing the smaller dragon's skull, a very common mistake BTW).
Removing the bigger one in it's own tank will likely result in the smaller being much happier and perhaps an immediate improvement in it's health and very rapid increase in it's growth when it no longer has to compete for food and heat and UV and becomes much less stressed.
Last edited by kingofnobbys on Sat Jan 05, 2019 10:20 pm, edited 4 times in total.
CBDs: Puff (M)(RIP 10Dec2015),Rex (F)(RIP 16Mar2017),Toothless (M)(RIP 26Nov2017).Peppa (F) (born 15Nov2015).
EBTSs : George & Mildred (born july 2010).
EWSs : Lucky (M)(wild juvenile), cat attack rescue, fatal SI RIP 21Jul2010.Wriggles (F)(rescued injured),thought she was a big lizard, over 8 yrs old, died in her sleep, RIP 2Feb2016). Fluffy (F) 4y old when rescued 14Nov2017 my little livewire , ubertame, thriving and very happy .
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Re: Baby beardie has coccidia 3grams , 4.5 inches

Postby kingofnobbys » Sat Jan 05, 2019 10:03 pm

PetLover2018 wrote:
AHBD wrote:Hi there, so sorry to hear this. :( I've raised many babies and I agree with the other poster, set her up in her own tank ASAP. Here is a sample of how I used to set up the babies that I hatched, of course cage decor can vary this was just a simple set up :


https://www.beardeddragon.org/useruploa ... _large.jpg

It's just a medium plastic storage tote with lights on top , the tote is short so a sick baby will not be too far from the uvb + heat.

Next, no more injections ! I'm surprised she's still alive. This vet seems clueless, baby's don't need constant painful injections along with dewormer medication. I am astounded. Next, stop the 3 baths . To add to this poor things stress + pain she is getting dunked for nothing. She will get all the nutrients + hydration from the syringe feeding. A bath every other day is fine at the most.

The sulfa drops are very harsh + will possibly damage the kidneys. Use toltrazuril instead, it's a much better anti-coccidial med. and it usually works in just 2-3 doses ! Not 3 long weeks of the other harsh stuff. Here's where to order it and it comes with dosing instructions :


http://www.beardeddragon.co/index.php?r ... uct_id=246



Hi, thanks for your reply. Im going by what the vet tells me, I brought her to a good vet, its private and people are very good, I do like to think that for the money im paying them shes getting the best treatment :( She was getting weekly injections :( AS she also had eye infection ,parasites and pin worms :/ She also seems to love her baths, and often drinks Repaboost which i thought is good.
She is in her own tank now its 3 ft, I seperated them a while ago already. Ive spent so much money on it all already tbh, is 3ft tank not enough for her? should i get the tote?
A 3 ft long long tank will work just fine and do for her for several months.
Totes/tubs are very good too and have the advantage of being cheap ,easily convertible (with an electric soldering iron and a drill-driver) - I recently converted two 120L tubs in a morning to rearing tubs , and are very easily transported and are stackable


but then ill need to get all new accessories again as mine are all screwed in her viv. Ive put up some pictures of her. Plus im in Ireland and I dont think the vet has access to that medicine.


I'd be very reluctant to make any changes to the treatment regime without first consulting an EXPERIENCE REPTILE veterinarian about this , even if means getting a second veterinarian's opinion if you are unhappy with the advice given by the current veterinarian.

Is the current / treating vet a certified & experience reptile / herp veterinarian ? as opposed to an exotics vet or general practice (pet/farm) veterinarians.
If not , maybe we can help locate a good reptile / herp veterinarian who is in reasonable driving distance from you.
I read that you are located in Ireland , this vet apparently comes highly recommended :
http://www.anapsid.org/vets/northireland.html
Michael Griffith
Jubilee Veterinary Centre
3 Jubilee Rd
Newtownards
Co. Down, BT23 4YH
UK
+44 (0) 2891 812226

Ireland is a tiny place, so he should be reachable for you. Or at least you can call him and maybe he'll refer you to a closer colleague who you are able to get to.
He may be able to advise you after consulting with your current vet over the phone or by email on the BEST WAY to move forward.

Stopping antibiotics too soon is very risky because the germs will not all be dead and the surviving germs will bloom and will now be much more drug resistant and even harder to get rid off. So this will very likely make your little sick dragon even sicker in very short order AND NOW it'll require even stronger mixes of antibiotics to be effectively treated.
I STRONGLY ADVISE you seek proper reptile veterinarian advise or a least speak to a professional pharmacist ADVISE MUST BE TAKEN FIRST , no one on this board in this thread is either a reptile / herp veterinarian or a pharmacist or health professional so take advise to stop antibiotics with extreme caution.

I've treated skinks about the same size as your little sick dragon using a combination of oral and IM antibiotics (in his case he was the victim of a cat attack who I intervened for and rescued). Incredibly tricky giving a very tiny lizard an injection safely, I was terrified of impaling him with the very fine (dietabetic style) needle everytime.
CBDs: Puff (M)(RIP 10Dec2015),Rex (F)(RIP 16Mar2017),Toothless (M)(RIP 26Nov2017).Peppa (F) (born 15Nov2015).
EBTSs : George & Mildred (born july 2010).
EWSs : Lucky (M)(wild juvenile), cat attack rescue, fatal SI RIP 21Jul2010.Wriggles (F)(rescued injured),thought she was a big lizard, over 8 yrs old, died in her sleep, RIP 2Feb2016). Fluffy (F) 4y old when rescued 14Nov2017 my little livewire , ubertame, thriving and very happy .
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