Too young to brumate?

Status
Not open for further replies.

Pepina

Member
Hi all,

My beardie is a little over 5 months old. My boyfriend and I got her about two months ago, took her for a check-up soon after purchasing her. She had a MAJOR case of parasite infection (pinworms, tapeworms, and flagellates), so we treated her over the last month and the stool sample was negative on her last check-up (10/20/18). She is still relatively small (about 125 grams). She was constipated, I think as a side effect from the medication she was on (Albon and Fenbendazole + a shot every other week-not sure what medication was used in the shot). She's finally pooping almost every day now.
We thought that, since she's nearing juvenile age, we would start reducing bug intake and increasing veggie intake. Prior to this decision, we would feed her 15-20 medium dubias in the morning and about 20 large phoenix worms in the evening and would feed her whatever greens she was willing to eat midday. We started feeding her only dubias or worms once in the morning (same serving amount) and a large salad in the evening (collard greens, dandelion greens, blueberries, wheat grass, endives, mustard greens). Her dubias will always be coated with calcium +D3. She doesn't really eat the greens, even when we try hiding bugs within the salad. She NEVER drinks water - we give her baths every other day, drop water on her nose, wet her food before she eats, etc. and she never licks the water. The most water she gets is from when we wash the phoenix worms and leave them wet for her to eat.
To get to the point, she's been starting to go to bed much earlier in the evening than typical. She's only hungry in the morning - she used to willingly eat greens in the afternoon but she won't take them anymore. My boyfriend and I are concerned that she may be preparing to brumate. I read that if the beardie is too small, they may not have the proper nutrients to carry them healthily through a brumation period. We thought to take her to the vet for another check-up, but we don't want to jump the gun on something that may be of no concern, especially since it's been only a month since her last full check-up at the vet's office. She's been jumping at her UVB light lately. Any ideas on what may be causing her changing behavior and whether it's safe to let her brumate, if that's what she's doing?
Vivarium set-up is as follows:
-4'x2'x2' homemade vivarium, oak plywood on three sides and bottom, screen on the front and top of vivarium, though a blanket always covers the top to help retain heat
-temperature on basking spot (hammock) is 95-105 F, temperature on cool side is 70-80 (this is likely because the screens - we intend to get a better enclosure with glass on the front within the next year). Temperature is recorded with stick on thermometer.
-we turn her light off at night (it's attached to a timer) so temps get to around 68 F at night
-Bulb is 100W PowerSun Mercury Vapor UVB lamp, purchased in early August, sitting around 7" above her basking spot with no screen blocking (cut a hole in the screen to prevent light from scattering)
-substrate is tile
 

AHBD

BD.org Sicko
Hi there, yes she is too small to brumate. Was she acting sick before going on the meds . ? You mentioned her diet, dubias in the a.m. + Phoenix worms on the p.m. Continue to give her all the insects she wants, twice a day. She should not be fed less at her size, that doesn't come up until nearly a year old and over 300=350 grams.


The meds. may be the cause of her problems, they are VERY harsh, I wish you had posted before the vet visit. Albon is a terrible drug, esp. if used for over 4-5 days. Did she have coccidia ? That is what Albon is usually used for, but any dragon that is eating well should not be on a dewormer for any length of time. Just an FYI, Ponazurl or toltrazuril can usually take care of coccidia in 2-3 doses.

How long exactly was she on the meds. ? What is the shot for ? I hate to say but I think the treatment did more damage than good. All those meds. are very hard on the kidneys + liver and cause dehydration, plus they wipe out the good gut flora leaving the dragon with a weakened immune system. Shots are painful and I have no idea why the vet did not tell you what they were for.

If she was not on a probiotic, get a bit of fruit flavored soy yogurt [ non dairy !] to dab a bit on her snout daily. You can also get some Flker's Repta boost + mix with a bit of water for extra hydration. Hopefully she'll bounce back soon but I would stay away from that vet.
 

Pepina

Member
Original Poster
AHBD":1ukiq8ob said:
Hi there, yes she is too small to brumate. Was she acting sick before going on the meds . ? You mentioned her diet, dubias in the a.m. + Phoenix worms on the p.m. Continue to give her all the insects she wants, twice a day. She should not be fed less at her size, that doesn't come up until nearly a year old and over 300=350 grams.


The meds. may be the cause of her problems, they are VERY harsh, I wish you had posted before the vet visit. Albon is a terrible drug, esp. if used for over 4-5 days. Did she have coccidia ? That is what Albon is usually used for, but any dragon that is eating well should not be on a dewormer for any length of time. Just an FYI, Ponazurl or toltrazuril can usually take care of coccidia in 2-3 doses.

How long exactly was she on the meds. ? What is the shot for ? I hate to say but I think the treatment did more damage than good. All those meds. are very hard on the kidneys + liver and cause dehydration, plus they wipe out the good gut flora leaving the dragon with a weakened immune system. Shots are painful and I have no idea why the vet did not tell you what they were for.

If she was not on a probiotic, get a bit of fruit flavored soy yogurt [ non dairy !] to dab a bit on her snout daily. You can also get some Flker's Repta boost + mix with a bit of water for extra hydration. Hopefully she'll bounce back soon but I would stay away from that vet.

Before the meds, she had severe diarrhea and she was occasionally vomiting. She was gaining weight relatively slow for a baby (only a few grams a week) We had received her in that state, so we took her to the vet as soon as we could, a nearby vet that other herp owners have sworn by. I had to recall her diagnosis by memory, so it's likely she had coccidia as well as the ones I listed, hence Albon. Reading into after your comment, I am sorry that I didn't look further into the medications before giving them to her - I'm a new herp owner, thought the vet would be reliable. She wasn't on any probiotics - I'll be sure to add that to her diet ASAP. She was on a 0.06ml Albon a day for four weeks...which worries me now...that's a long time. I'm sure the doctor mentioned what the two shots were for, but I don't have it on paper anywhere accessible at home - the vet's office probably has it in their records. I know that she hasn't been digesting the shells of the bugs she's been eating very well since getting off the meds, but I thought that may be normal. She does poo a lot of liquid, so I'm hoping that's a sign that she's staying hydrated.

Thank you for the advice - she is still a very alert and active dragon with minimal signs of stress aside from going to bed early, so I hope we can bring her back to a better state after the harsh drugs.
 

AHBD

BD.org Sicko
Poor little one, at least she's still alert. I re-read your original post, it may be that the basking spot is just a bit too cool since the hammocks don't really retain heat. Do you have a basking log for her ? A log is much better than a hammock, more natural + supports the body much better.

Post a few pics of her + her set up , here's how. :

https://www.beardeddragon.org/useruploads/ Then use the XIMG to upload them
 

kingofnobbys

BD.org Sicko
Definitely keep her tank temperatures warm (day and night)
daytime
>> warm zone 30-35 degC
>> cool zone 26-30 degC
>> maximum basking spot temp 40 degC
night time
>> minimum tank temperature 24 degC

keep her photoperiod long , recommend minimum 14 hours (lights ON) , I use a photoperiod of 16 hours and none of my pet skinks or dragons ever brumate (though the adults do slow down a little over winter while remaining active (basking each day, wanting food, wanting interaction over winter).

As already stated, it's best NOT to allow a dragon to brumate in it's FIRST winter.

Unless you plan on breeding, brumation is not necessary at all, in the wild bearded dragons in the northern part of their range ( above the Tropic of Capricorn ) are active year round - I know this from first hand observation when I was working in this area and regularly saw CBDs basking and hunting about even in June and July on warmer days.
 

Drache613

BD.org Sicko
Staff member
Moderator
Hello,

I agree, at that age & weight, she is too young to brumate. She needs to be several hundred
grams minimum, to brumate, successfully.
Definitely continue to let her eat a high protein diet at her age, to help support the rest of
her growth. It's fine however, to actively encourage eating more vegetation.
Poor girl, the meds can really irritate their systems, causing a myriad of health issues.
The Powersun MVB is a nice bright light, but isn't a real strong UVB source. It should be fine
for awhile. You could consider getting a tube UVB also, to use in combination with the MVB,
too. A bit of extra UVB would be helpful for her.
Probiotics should really help her out a lot. It isn't your fault, a lot of vets just are not good
with reptiles.
How is she doing tonight?

Tracie
 

Pepina

Member
Original Poster
AHBD":25iilukp said:
Poor little one, at least she's still alert. I re-read your original post, it may be that the basking spot is just a bit too cool since the hammocks don't really retain heat. Do you have a basking log for her ? A log is much better than a hammock, more natural + supports the body much better.

Post a few pics of her + her set up , here's how. :

https://www.beardeddragon.org/useruploads/ Then use the XIMG to upload them

Here's her vivarium:
101275-5148472772.jpg
101275-8464542669.jpg
101275-5050022518.jpg

Since this post, we've given her a Reptisun 10.0 UV fluorescent bulb. She's got a hammock for the basking spot because I hadn't figured out a way to safely give her close access to her basking bulb other that attaching a hammock. We're currently designing her a new enclosure, but on the budget I had when we got her, my mediocre carpentry skills gave her what you see above. The yellow cloth is to give her a smooth surface to lay on when she's on the hammock. Her belly is so soft - I thought the hammock might be a little too scratchy. We have the temperature gauge sitting on the hammock underneath the bulb and it reads about 98-104 F.
 

Pepina

Member
Original Poster
Drache613":22995f54 said:
Hello,

I agree, at that age & weight, she is too young to brumate. She needs to be several hundred
grams minimum, to brumate, successfully.
Definitely continue to let her eat a high protein diet at her age, to help support the rest of
her growth. It's fine however, to actively encourage eating more vegetation.
Poor girl, the meds can really irritate their systems, causing a myriad of health issues.
The Powersun MVB is a nice bright light, but isn't a real strong UVB source. It should be fine
for awhile. You could consider getting a tube UVB also, to use in combination with the MVB,
too. A bit of extra UVB would be helpful for her.
Probiotics should really help her out a lot. It isn't your fault, a lot of vets just are not good
with reptiles.
How is she doing tonight?

Tracie

Hi Tracie,
She's still behaving a little lethargic. We have to entice her with food much more, as if she really doesn't have an appetite until we convince her that the roaches in front of her should be eaten. Sometimes, she's tried to hide under her log midday. If we see her doing this, we usually take her out of her vivarium and let her hang out with us on her favorite windowsill or watching the computer screen. Trying to prevent her from starting to brumate. As I mentioned in another response, we have since added a Reptisun 10.0 fluorescent UVB tube to her vivarium. She definitely has more vibrant colors, but behavior hasn't changed too much. We're worried parents. Swear we saw a bit of eye droop yesterday, but we're trying not to overthink anything. As long as she's eating and staying awake, I'm hoping that we're doing as much as we can.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Members online

Latest resources

Latest profile posts

Mirage entered brumation yesterday, I'm gonna miss hanging out with my little guy.
Getting ready for another day. Feeling sleepy. 😴
I just walked into my room and instead of looking at me, Swordtail's eyes darted directly to the ice cream drumstick I'm holding
Finally replaced Swordtail's substrate
I miss you so much, Amaris 💔

Forum statistics

Threads
156,082
Messages
1,257,522
Members
76,066
Latest member
LiamYe
Top Bottom