Any Chance She Can Recover?

Here is a long post about our bearded dragon, Phil (it's a girl). We're running out of options and wanted to see what you guys think...

Gender: Female
Age: 2 years
Weight: 308 grams
Tank: 18" x 36" x 12"
UVB: Zoo Med Repti Sun 10.0 UVB
Substrate: Paper Towels
Ceramic Heat Lamp
2 Basking Lamps
Lights on from 6am to 8pm
Temperatures between 85-105 during the day
Temperatures between 80-85 during the night
Humidity bewteen 30-50%

Meet Phil


For the last 2 months she has been very ill. However, her medical story starts long before that.

We adopted Phil last year on October 15th, 2017. She is on the small side and was somehow incredibly stinky. We gave her her first bath and tended to her with the love and care she deserves. She was a picky eater and wouldn't eat her veggies (even with bee pollen) but did enjoy the occasional blueberry. As such, she primarily ate bugs (with plenty of calcium), some combination of Dubia Roaches, Super Worms, Black Soldier Fly Larvae, and Hornworms.

This continued until March 14th, 2018. We took her to the vet and she broke her jaw there. An abscess in her mouth ruptured so she was on calcium supplements and syringe fed. Her blood tests came back fine but her cultures came back with bacteria so she was put on antibiotics. Luckily, her jaw healed and the bacteria infection was conquered as well!


Phil at the Vet


Phil feeling better and going outside!

Around late April, Phil started slowing down and went into brumation. This is when things really started going downhill. During her brumation, we offered her salad and bugs but she barely ate throughout it. For awhile, we believed this was normal. Eventually, she stopped eating completely and we continued to periodically syringe feed her Critical Care. She lost a lot of weight and would only poop once a month or so. The vet recommended for us to push her out of brumation in July by extending the duration her lights are on, bathing her everyday, and feeding her everyday.

So I began to do this. Another vet visit in August determined that she has thickened veins around her heart, she was positive for multiple different bacteria cultures, and had a respiratory infection. On top of this, Phil broke her jaw again after chomping down on the syringe. As such, the vet prescribed the following:

Injections:
2mL Reptile Fluid + Baytril (Baytril every other day) - .13mL
Meloxicam

Oral:
Enalapril (heart medication) - .07mL
Calcium - .13mL

Diet:
Critical Care Fine Ground
Reptacare
2-3mL a day

Daily:
10-15 minute warm soak
Poops while feeding her


Our sick little dragon

Some progress was made and she started gaining weight (from 288g - 308g). She even began to poop regularly and was awake throughout the day. Unfortunately, this started happening just last Saturday on 9/8/2018.



Video of her stargazing and attempting to do the running motion.
https://imgur.com/UdhZ9ID

I can no longer leave her unattended because this has happened a few times:


I added Vitamin B12 injections and am continuing to syringe feed her. Unfortunately she's not really eating anymore and I can only get her to eat .5mL or so a day. She freaks out and runs around even in her sleep. Now she is doing this constantly and only has a few hours a day where she's not suddenly running around and stargazing for no reason.

I took her to the vet and the vet stated this might be Atadenovirus or she might've had a stroke and suggested euthanasia. What do you guys think? Is there anything else we should try before considering euthanasia?

Edit: At the most recent trip to the vet, the vet said that her upper jaw is still infected with bacteria. Another vet I took Phil to suggested a different antibiotic since this bacteria might be resistant to Baytril but I wanted to wait till I took her to her main vet only a few days later.

Edit: Uploaded a video of one of her minor "spasms". She'll do this for a minute or so every few minutes and she'll do this to the point of flipping over onto her back.
https://imgur.com/PDJCvzn

I'm so, so sorry that your Phil is so very sick, my heart goes out to you + her. I do want to ask, how did she break her jaw the first time at the vet ? If the vet broke it they should be treating her free of charge.


I do know that a side effect of meloxicam can be seizures.
https://r.search.yahoo.com/_ylt=AwrBXegjgJhbJVoALDUPxQt.;_ylu=X3oDMTByOHZyb21tBGNvbG8DYmYxBHBvcwMxBHZ0aWQDBHNlYwNzcg--/RV=2/RE=1536749731/RO=10/RU=https%3a%2f%2fwww.drugs.com%2fsfx%2fmeloxicam-side-effects.html/RK=2/RS=fVM4sEXoov09h1LeUwdtwLOmyeQ-

A clinical write up says that the dosing should be very low and only every 48-72 hours if a reptile is in pain.


The vet should have tested for ADV as soon as they knew about these horrible seizures. Even if your beardie DOES have ADV, it should not cause seizures at night, I think that is from the meds.

One of the mods. here [ Drache613 ] works with the lab that is working on a cure for ADV and can be quite helpful + recommend supplements . She can test your dragon for a very low price. Just find one of her posts + send her a link to this thread.


I think your dragon's problems are possibly associated with the heavy meds. + extreme stress from constant injections + force feeding. I wish you the best, I hope there's a chance for your beautiful girl !

Thank you for the response.

She broke her jaw when the vet took her to the back. The vet said she broke her jaw biting down on her assistant's finger. There's no way for me to know whether or not the vet broke her jaw and unfortunately I have no grounds for this.

Phil's last dose of Meloxicam was on Saturday, coincidentally. The dosing was low, small enough for me not even to really be able to tell how much was in the prefilled syringes.

The vet could do the test but said it would take up to 2 weeks and cost $150+. I'll try to find and message Drache613. Do you know about this site?

http://www.vetdna.com/
I planned to call them to see how they work but they're closed right now.

I'll p.m Drache for you , she's one of the mods, Tracie is her name. I just watched the video of the bathing + thrashing. That's not stargazing,she just does not want to be in water every day especially since she does not feel well. It can cause inner ear infection, adding to the loss of balance. It's unnatural for a dragon, they don't live in areas with ponds everywhere. Baths are O.K once a week for a dragon that enjoys them. So I still think the vet did more damage than good.


What type of bacterial infection did Phil have ? Some vets treat beardies for stuff that they naturally carry in their gut with no ill effects. I wish you had posted here when all this started, a beardie doesn't need to eat during brumation, mine hardly ever do. I know I sound like doom + gloom but I really believe the vet is incompetent, broke your dragon's jaw twice, giving meds. that may or may not help and causing terror to the poor thing.

Thank you. The video reflects somewhat of her movements in the tank as well. I'll try to record her doing it again in the tank and upload it when I can. She's sleeping now so I don't want to agitate her just for that.

I have had mixed feelings about this vet. The price is outrageous and at times I point out things that they should know (like what stargazing is). I do want to clarify that the 2nd time Phil broke her jaw was in my care when I was syringe feeding her. She bit down on the syringe and her jaw broke and so did my heart... I got her soft tip syringes after this happened.

The bacteria were:
1. Enterobacter aerogenes
2. Non-enteric gram negative rod (unable to speciate)

I would also like to point out that we have 3 cats as well. They never come in direct contact with Phil but reside in the same area as she does.

Time to seek out a more experienced REPTILE VET to get a second opinion.

I forgot to ask, should I give her some probiotics?

tathecat563":ujtxefov said:

I forgot to ask, should I give her some probiotics?

Click to expand...

It shouldn't hurt to try it. I'd at least keep her well hydrated.

Hello,

Wow, I am so very sorry about little Phil, very sad scene of events.
I completely agree, the vets are incompetent & have terrorized her & caused her pain.

I think that the meloxicam is causing neurological damage & I highly recommend taking her
off of it immediately.
Can you get some parsley, cilantro, basil & oregano to mix together, with some non dairy
soy yogurt or non dairy acidophiliz. This can help to detoxify her system. Give this mix to
her twice a day right now.
Will she take anything if it's dripped onto the end of her nose?
I don't think it's adeno since it has come on due to vet visits, etc. If you want to get her
tested, you can sign up here on my site:

www.thepats.info

It is $20 to get her tested.

Bless her. Are you still giving the powdered food? Instead of the powdered food, try giving
organic chicken or turkey baby food along with sweet potato or squash baby food. I feel it
is more nutritious.

Let us know how she is doing.

Tracie

Hi Drache613,

I was in a rush and sent a poop sample to another lab first thing in the morning. Next time I will definitely send it to you.

Thank you for the advice. I'll try the veggie mix and yogurt. Are the veggies blended or as a salad? Unfortunately she is not eating solids. The only way she'll eat right now is if I squirt it into her front lip area. She doesn't lick it off her outer lip. I'll also try the baby food.

She's been sleeping all day and I felt like I should give her a break. I'll start feeding and putting her through the wringer again tomorrow . The last dose of Meloxicam was last Saturday. I'm not sure if she's feeling better since she's been sleeping all day.

Edit: Uploaded a video of one of her minor "spasms". She'll do this for a minute or so every few minutes and she'll do this much more vigorously to the point of flipping over onto her back.
https://imgur.com/PDJCvzn

Hello,

Yes, slurries are fine. Poor girl. How is she doing today?
Do you have a copy of the blood tests I could see? Were any eggs seen at all?
How did the last vet come to a conclusion of thickened arteries around the heart?
It definitely looks like a neurological issue that has been caused by a medication, possibly.
Can you look at the ingredients of the Reptacare, is that from the vet?
What initially prompted you to take her into the vet, the first time, the abscess? I think that
the antibiotics have probably taken a toll on her, as they often do.
Let us know how Phil is doing.

Tracie

Let her rest from all the meds. + force feeding, she has plenty of weight on her and didn't need all that force feeding that started with the vet. Is that how they broke her jaw, prying her mouth open ?

Just let a few days pass and offer water dripped on her snout and/or the slurry mix but she is not in danger of losing weight and she needs a break from the treatment.

@Drache613

For the last 2 mornings she has remained relatively calm. Yesterday after I gave her the calcium, reptile fluids, Enalapril, and tried to feed her, she freaked out from 2pm until around 9pm when she finally calmed down. Today I have not tried to force feed her or give her any medication.

Reptacare ingredients (click on FACTS):
https://vitamingrocer.co.uk/products/fluker-labs-repta-boost-insectivore-carnivore-312931

The first time we took her to the vet was because she hadn't pooped in a month. Thinking about it, it was after her jaw broke that she started to not really eat solid food.

@AHBD

They broke her jaw the first time when they took her to the back to get an oral swab for a bacteria culture iirc. I was incredibly frustrated but my better half was more understanding. They also charged us $1,000 for all the tests and medications.

Outrageous, outrageous. :x They should not be charging you a penny and they are at least partly responsible for everything she's going through. You should have demanded every penny back and wrote a huge review on their website. Imagine the pain she went through, then the seizures which are most likely from the meloxicam. Poor baby, such a shame. Shame on them.


I'm still hopeful though, how is she doing today ?

She is a bit calmer so far but still freaking out a bit a couple times an hour.

I just got the results for the Atedenovirus test and she came back negative... This seems very likely to be neurological at this point?