Re: Evidence supporting probiotics and pollen products

phobosdthorga · Oct 31, 2017

EllenD":1c7iztkw said:
You can buy a bottle of "Multi-Enzyme Probiotics" at any Walmart, a bottle of 200 tablets for $5.99, or you can buy a bottle of just plain Acidophilus, either 100 pills or a liquid form that would last a dragon forever, for $5. Or you can buy a container of Silk brand non-Dairy Soy Yogurt at any Walmart or grocery store for $2....so I don't think Probiotics are causing ANY financial strain, nor are you going to buy anything else for your dragon with that money...

I'm not trying to pick a fight with you or anyone else, but take a minute and just scan through the newest posts in the "Beardie ER" and the "Health" forums right now, and you'll find at least 30+ posts full of posts about dragons that have been on at least 1 or 2 different prescription medications, in most cases it's more like 3 or 4, most of them were put on them without any diagnostic tests being done. And most of them are now worse off after taking the medications than they were before they ever went to a vet....This post itself is the best example of the dangers of over-medicating a bearded dragon. Here's a secondary Gastrointestinal Yeast Infection caused by too many medications given at one time/in a row, and now their option is #1) Put the poor, sick, stressed dragon on yet another prescription medication, an antifungal, to treat the secondary fungal infection that was caused by the medications the dragon already has taken, or #2) Simply spend all of $5-$6 on some Probiotics that may not only clear up the yeast infection, but also may make the poor dragon's tummy and gut feel better and pick up her appetite...that's all I suggested, and I'm sorry, I don't understand what's wrong with that or why anyone would get defensive about it. What is your suggestion, just put her on yet another drug, an antifungal, to treat the secondary Yeast infection, and then she still has the original problem she started with, so she'll most likely have to be on yet more medications for that? Again, it was just a suggestion that has been well-known to help many, many bearded dragons, and more importantly has been known to make many, many bearded dragons FEEL BETTER. And for $6 they'd have a bottle of Probiotics with added Digestive Enzymes that would last them forever, and that I can attest to helping 2 of my own beardies over the last 5 years. Maybe it won't help her at all, maybe it will only settle her tummy and make her feel better but not help the Yeast infection, maybe it will take care of it all, but again I'll ask, what's the harm in trying it for $6 or less?

I would really like to see evidence supporting these unfounded claims. Anecdotal evidence is pathetic at best and dangerous at worst when compared to peer-reviewed, empirical evidence.

UncleGael · Oct 31, 2017

What was this in response to? Honestly curious.

AHBD · Nov 1, 2017

Hi there, it was in response to the O.P's wondering about the commonly suggested use of probiotics with a dragon that is on meds, esp. antibiotics. as to whether they benefit the animal [ or even people ] or are just quack medicine. The O.P wants scientific evidence.

SHBailey · Nov 1, 2017

My reptile vet believes that the jury is still out about probiotics, and more research is needed to determine which sorts of microbes are most beneficial for various types of reptiles. She says that most of the reptile probiotics on the market have the same ingredients as probiotics sold for humans, but it's likely that reptiles would need something different.

But if it's cheap and doesn't do any harm and seems to help, it may still be worth a try... :?

phobosdthorga · Nov 2, 2017

UncleGael":3ow1ygms said:
What was this in response to? Honestly curious.

This was a response to comments made here: https://www.beardeddragon.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=45&t=237285&start=30

AHBD":3ow1ygms said:
Hi there, it was in response to the O.P's wondering about the commonly suggested use of probiotics with a dragon that is on meds, esp. antibiotics. as to whether they benefit the animal [ or even people ] or are just quack medicine. The O.P wants scientific evidence.

Thank you

SHBailey":3ow1ygms said:
My reptile vet believes that the jury is still out about probiotics, and more research is needed to determine which sorts of microbes are most beneficial for various types of reptiles. She says that most of the reptile probiotics on the market have the same ingredients as probiotics sold for humans, but it's likely that reptiles would need something different.

But if it's cheap and doesn't do any harm and seems to help, it may still be worth a try... :?

Certain people on this site are VERY defensive of probiotics and pollen products for reasons I cannot go into publicly, when there's very little evidence of them ever purportedly helping.

SHBailey · Nov 2, 2017

Thanks for posting the link to the thread that started this debate. I'm glad to see that the beardie involved seems to be doing much better, whether it had anything to do with probiotics or not... :?

AHBD · Nov 2, 2017

Here are a few write ups, the first one from scientificamerican claims that they don't do anything for healthy people but it does make mention of helping restore the gut flora lost due to antibiotic use.
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=12&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwj1wv7IlaHXAhViw4MKHSLdAooQFghbMAs&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.scientificamerican.com%2Farticle%2Fdo-probiotics-really-work%2F&usg=AOvVaw2VAg4mSEdmFVGwJlMTvFWR

And another article from Webmd:
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=2&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwj1wv7IlaHXAhViw4MKHSLdAooQFggrMAE&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.webmd.com%2Fdigestive-disorders%2Fwhat-are-probiotics&usg=AOvVaw0VFCjacY7W7p6YMNdz-dga

phobosdthorga · Nov 2, 2017

SHBailey":26fhdw3q said:
Thanks for posting the link to the thread that started this debate. I'm glad to see that the beardie involved seems to be doing much better, whether it had anything to do with probiotics or not... :?

I doubt it was due to the probiotics, but actually coming off all that powerful medication that was suppressing its gut/intestinal floras health. People forget that many of the enzymes and such which exist in your gut and intestines actually come from the food you eat. You literally are what you eat. That's why crickets and other insects which have active, living bacteria, (good) parasites, and enzymes in them are SO HEALTHY for your Beardies.

phobosdthorga · Nov 2, 2017

AHBD":1yfvu3nx said:
Here are a few write ups, the first one from scientificamerican claims that they don't do anything for healthy people but it does make mention of helping restore the gut flora lost due to antibiotic use.
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=12&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwj1wv7IlaHXAhViw4MKHSLdAooQFghbMAs&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.scientificamerican.com%2Farticle%2Fdo-probiotics-really-work%2F&usg=AOvVaw2VAg4mSEdmFVGwJlMTvFWR

And another article from Webmd:
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=2&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwj1wv7IlaHXAhViw4MKHSLdAooQFggrMAE&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.webmd.com%2Fdigestive-disorders%2Fwhat-are-probiotics&usg=AOvVaw0VFCjacY7W7p6YMNdz-dga

Err, you do realize those articles are journalistic in nature, and offer no empiralistic evidence? They're hardly what you call 'scientific', sorry to say.

AHBD · Nov 2, 2017

People reading articles like that can see what others have experienced or feel they have benefited from taking them. I don't take them myself but I can see where they''d be potentially beneficial for humans or animals that have been on a long course of antibiotics. I'm not here to argue, but I would think that it would def. be good practice to give a probiotic that doesn't hurt and can most likely help , if nothing else to help the animal regain it's appetite.

This is of interest :
https://www.google.com/url?url=http://scholar.google.com/scholar_url%3Furl%3Dhttp://www.idpublications.com/journals/pdfs/anae/anae_mostdown_1.pdf%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DX%26scisig%3DAAGBfm1TlLlntb8dJC6eNvvdRHwWoIJqhg%26nossl%3D1%26oi%3Dscholarr&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwijm9nPtqHXAhXrz4MKHdKOD-0QgAMIKSgCMAA&usg=AOvVaw20-8ygvSwFZfGJ_kEGwdUz

Here's a very looooong read which may be termed scientific.

https://www.google.com/url?url=http://scholar.google.com/scholar_url%3Furl%3Dhttp://books.google.com/books%253Fhl%253Den%2526lr%253D%2526id%253Di8brCAAAQBAJ%2526oi%253Dfnd%2526pg%253DPR9%2526dq%253Dscientific%252Bclinical%252Bstudies%252Bon%252Befficacy%252Bof%252Bprobiotics%2526ots%253DfxKGdkFb4C%2526sig%253DHf8_K1qjN5EQ8nKctxRMtH3gocM%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DX%26scisig%3DAAGBfm38xcks2EJG4Fo3OW0SAYLkyXleww%26nossl%3D1%26oi%3Dscholarr&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwj74LO3mqHXAhVszIMKHcNfBagQgAMIKSgCMAA&usg=AOvVaw14jvn6uDZp3D8QnYOquvVl

SHBailey · Nov 3, 2017

Our reptile vet also says that dandelions from the backyard include some beneficial bacteria that would help restore our beardie's gut flora after his last round of antibiotics for the infections he sometimes gets -- that is, if we can get him to eat any greens at all. And we don't use any pesticides or herbicides in our yard, so that's not an issue.

My husband takes probiotics and he thinks they're doing him some good, but I tried them and didn't notice any difference. We're very different in that respect, though. I've had a cast iron digestive tract for most of my life, but I've probably abused the privilege a little too much, and now that I'm 60 it may finally be catching up with me -- I have to be more careful about what I put in there these days. My husband has lots of problems with heartburn and difficulty swallowing and other gastrointestinal issues, so maybe the probiotics do help him in some way.

We haven't tried probiotics on our beardie yet, at least not so far. I'd probably be willing to give it a shot if I thought he needed something like that. Even if it didn't help, it probably wouldn't hurt either. :?

phobosdthorga · Nov 3, 2017

AHBD":2sxrc9ui said:
People reading articles like that can see what others have experienced or feel they have benefited from taking them. I don't take them myself but I can see where they''d be potentially beneficial for humans or animals that have been on a long course of antibiotics. I'm not here to argue, but I would think that it would def. be good practice to give a probiotic that doesn't hurt and can most likely help , if nothing else to help the animal regain it's appetite.

This is of interest :
https://www.google.com/url?url=http://scholar.google.com/scholar_url%3Furl%3Dhttp://www.idpublications.com/journals/pdfs/anae/anae_mostdown_1.pdf%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DX%26scisig%3DAAGBfm1TlLlntb8dJC6eNvvdRHwWoIJqhg%26nossl%3D1%26oi%3Dscholarr&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwijm9nPtqHXAhXrz4MKHdKOD-0QgAMIKSgCMAA&usg=AOvVaw20-8ygvSwFZfGJ_kEGwdUz

Here's a very looooong read which may be termed scientific.
https://www.google.com/url?url=http://scholar.google.com/scholar_url%3Furl%3Dhttp://books.google.com/books%253Fhl%253Den%2526lr%253D%2526id%253Di8brCAAAQBAJ%2526oi%253Dfnd%2526pg%253DPR9%2526dq%253Dscientific%252Bclinical%252Bstudies%252Bon%252Befficacy%252Bof%252Bprobiotics%2526ots%253DfxKGdkFb4C%2526sig%253DHf8_K1qjN5EQ8nKctxRMtH3gocM%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DX%26scisig%3DAAGBfm38xcks2EJG4Fo3OW0SAYLkyXleww%26nossl%3D1%26oi%3Dscholarr&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwj74LO3mqHXAhVszIMKHcNfBagQgAMIKSgCMAA&usg=AOvVaw14jvn6uDZp3D8QnYOquvVl

There is a conclusion on page 104 with your last link, but I lack the training to understand what it is saying. Anyone here who has studied microbiology, that might want to chime in? The former paper mentions MANY disadvantages and you have to remember, many of these probiotics are stored in very un-ideal conditions prior to use. How are you sure that you are getting what you paid for? You aren't sure and you most likely won't be getting much, if any surviving probiotics. 'Feeling' what you have benefited is completely different to empirical evidence. It's why we have so many quack medicines that persist to this day in such a modern age of medicine, with such **** like homeopathy that has no place in this scientific world.

SHBailey":2sxrc9ui said:
Our reptile vet also says that dandelions from the backyard include some beneficial bacteria that would help restore our beardie's gut flora after his last round of antibiotics for the infections he sometimes gets -- that is, if we can get him to eat any greens at all. And we don't use any pesticides or herbicides in our yard, so that's not an issue.

My husband takes probiotics and he thinks they're doing him some good, but I tried them and didn't notice any difference. We're very different in that respect, though. I've had a cast iron digestive tract for most of my life, but I've probably abused the privilege a little too much, and now that I'm 60 it may finally be catching up with me -- I have to be more careful about what I put in there these days. My husband has lots of problems with heartburn and difficulty swallowing and other gastrointestinal issues, so maybe the probiotics do help him in some way.

We haven't tried probiotics on our beardie yet, at least not so far. I'd probably be willing to give it a shot if I thought he needed something like that. Even if it didn't help, it probably wouldn't hurt either. :?

I actually never considered flowers containing beneficial bacteria; that fact really surprised me, if true! Sometimes though, and I don't know if this is the case here, but the placebo effect can be really powerful. It can be quite beneficial in some individuals. It shouldn't be taken as an insult either, it seriously is documented as having real, proven effects on Humans. I envy your digestive system though, as mine is always nauseous. Probably from all the medications I take

I have problems with GORD myself and very much understand what your husband likely goes through.

One of my arguments though, is that in Australia at least, probiotics are EXPENSIVE. Very expensive relatively to the U.S. So you're very likely paying top-dollar for something that does nothing unless you are experiencing the placebo effect.

SHBailey · Nov 7, 2017

There are all kinds of bacteria all over just about everything in the world, and the last estimate I heard (some time ago) was that about 98% of the known bacteria species are beneficial, but the other 2% includes some pretty nasty pathogens. So most animals (including humans) probably acquire their gut flora mostly from things in the natural world that they eat, including plants. I suppose it could be argued that the reason humans are having so many problems maintaining a healthy balance of microbes in our bodies is because of all the artificially processed food we eat, but we still might not be doing ourselves any favors when we try to fix it with artificially processed probiotics. :?

We're lucky that my husband's favorite probiotics aren't horribly expensive, and they also go on sale fairly regularly, so we try to stock up when they're cheapest. There are a few other things that he's tried that are ridiculously expensive, however, and when one of them seems to work for him, I tell him that he needs to find a cheaper placebo. :wink:

I've heard of research that has shown that even an "honest placebo" (when you know you're doing something that has no scientifically proven benefit) can help people feel better.

We've tried all kinds of things with my husband, some of them even invasive and unnecessary in my opinion (doctors get paid for the procedures they do, and he's their cash cow), as well as a number of naturapathic remedies/possible placebos. He's often too nauseous to eat anything for breakfast in the morning, for example, and he usually walks to work. I hate to send him off that way -- like trying to drive the car with no good gas in the tank, especially since (unlike me) he doesn't have much in the way of fat reserves, but I know better than to try to get him to eat when he's not up to it, otherwise I'd be mopping it up off the kitchen floor... :roll:

The probiotic debate will probably go on, but hopefully sooner or later some good research will get done for both humans and animals, and maybe someday we'll actually know what we're doing when we try to restore our own or our pets' balance of beneficial bacteria after knocking out infections with antibiotics.

Taterbug · Nov 8, 2017

This is the only article I know of directed at reptiles regarding probiotics. http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0147859

As a side note, You’ll hard pressed to find scientific backing for a lot of the information on this forum.

CooperDragon · Nov 8, 2017

Scientific backing is certainly good when available, but I don't think it's required in every instance. Especially since there is such limited research to draw from. While misinformation can and does get passed around, discussion forums are helpful because it brings together a fairly large group of caregivers to discuss and share their collective experience and observations. If you get enough folks identifying something, discussing it & building ideas around it, it brings value and progress in a lot of cases. While it's good to take advice with a grain of salt and consider your individual situation, I don't think ideas should be dismissed simply due to lack of research or scientific backing.

Re: Evidence supporting probiotics and pollen products

phobosdthorga

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