Lethargic beardy not eating much...looking for 2nd opinions

Hello,

My bud, iroh, has been mostly in a state of lethargy for 14 days now. He doesn't eat much. Naps most of the time. He still has bowel movements and has gained a little weight during this time. Ive taken him to the vet to see if he could figure out what was going on and they cant find anything yet. Heres (hopefully) a detailed description of the circumstances...

Lighting: reptisun 10.0 ho (just replaced). Temperatures: 80 - 100 degrees

The lethargy started really suddenly. Iroh just wanted to be in his hide in the cool side of his enclosure. He stays somewhat alert peeking at me when i check on him. I do have records of what has happened on a day to day basis (behavior, eating, bathing, bm's) if anyone thinks it relevant. I have had him for 7 months and estimated him to be 2 months old when i got him.

I took iroh to my vet 6 days after this started. He didnt observe anything physically unusual and suggested blood work. The blood work came back today (today is day 14) and the only thing even slightly anomylous was the protein level. I believe he said the range was from 2.5 to 3.5 and iroh was at 3.9. He couldnt draw any conclusions from the blood work. So today i took him back to the vet and he took x-rays and put him on baytril and fortaz. Does anyone have any opinions based off of this info? Id be happy to answer any more questions any feedback is appreciated.

***SEE MY LAST PARAGRAPH BELOW REGARDING HIS ENCLOSURE TEMPS AND THE TYPE OF THERMOMETER YOU USE, I THINK THIS MAY BE YOUR ISSUE BUT I DIDN'T CATCH WHAT YOU WROTE ABOUT HIS TEMPERATURES AT FIRST***"

What was the reason your vet put him on the meds? I don't know why vets always do this with beardies, but it seems like whenever a vet cannot figure out what's going on they put them on an antibiotic, antifungal, or antiparasitic "just in case", and it's not only totally unnecessary, but medications are extremely harsh on beardies and they end up making them feel badly, stop eating, and they cause new problems. If he did a blood panel and his white blood cells were not elevated, and he did no cultures to test for infection, then he doesn't need the Baytril or the Fortaz....You can give it to him if you want to, but I strongly advise against it unless your vet gave you a specific and logical reason for it, other than "it might be an infection so we'll just treat it like one"...And did he mention giving him probiotics to lessen the side effects of the meds, to keep his tummy settled and his appetite up? Because he absolutely should be in probiotics along with any antibiotics.

And that combo of meds is very rough, so again I advise against it unless he gave you a very good, specific reason, meaning he tested positive for a bacterial infection that requires both Baytril AND Ceftz, which is overkill even if he does have an infection. But without a positive bacterial culture of any kind and with a normal white blood cell count, there is absolutely no need for two different broad-spectrum antibiotics.

Did he do a fecal on a poop sample to test for parasites/worms and bacteria? It's good that he did blood work and an x-ray, but he could very easily have a parasitic infection or worms without an elevated white blood cell count, and this is very common in beardies. If he has parasites then antibiotics are completely unnecessary. His protein level being very slightly elevated may be something, but may also be nothing, it's not very high, but can be an indication of possible gout or kidney issues. I'm assuming that part of the blood panel was his uric acid level, which if normal pretty much rules out gout along with a negative x-ray...

What did he say about his x-rays? Did he see anything at all, like crystals indicating gout, or any type of mass?

Are you 100% sure your beardie is a male? I'm just covering all the bases here to be sure...

Any trouble with him moving around, any black bearding, any swollen legs, or any legs being favored?

Has his poop been runny or smelly lately? How have his urates been? Are they bright white? Are they dry and chalky or normal?

******Some photos of him and his enclosure and setup would be helpful. Also, you list his enclosure temps as being between 80-100 degrees, but you need to be more specific for us. You need to measure the EXACT temperature of the Cool Side, the Hot Side, and of his basking spot where he sits. These are the 3 important temperature zones in a beardie's enclosure, and they can effect things drastically if they are off...And what type of thermometer are you using to take his temps, a gun, a digital thermometer with a probe that you can place right on his basking spot, or those round gauge thermometers? IT COULD BE AS SIMPLE AS HIS TEMPS ARE TOO HOT, ESPECIALLY IF YOU ARE USING THOSE ROUND GAUGE THERMOMETERS, THEY CAN BE OFF BY 20 DEGREES, AND YOU CANNOT MEASURE THE TEMPERATURE OF HIS BASKING SPOT WITH THEM, SO THAT WOULD EXPLAIN HIM NOT BASKING AND HIDING ON THE COOL SIDE. YOU COULD BE COOKING HIM, HE COULD BE DEHYDRATED. Right now this is my best guess until you tell us the 3 temperatures and how you typically take them. Be honest about your temps and the thermometer you use, because it really does sound like this may be the issue.

First i will try to address the prerequisites-

My thermometer is an Etekcity lasergrip 1080 infrared. Below are some pictures of his enclosure and of iroh.

Here is his enclosure as is. His main basking area is top left. He gets mid range temps on the right. His cool temps and hide are bottom left.

The hottest area is here where the cloth/hammock is. 96-98 degress. The log by that is 87.

The bottom right stays 87 on top of the log.

The bottom left stays at 80 when lights are on. He (he is definitely a male). He is on a 12/12 schedule. 73 degrees at night. He can get anwhere in between any of these temperatures. I believe the gradient is satisfied.

He hasnt been moving unusually. He scoots along just fine. His beard was a little black earlier today when they stuck him with a needle but thats it. His poo isnt runny or smelly. Looks good for poo. On april 4 he was said to have trichomonas and was given metronidazole. 3 weeks later another fecal was done and was said to be clear. Thats the last fecal he had done.

His white blood cell count was not elevated. The x rays were taken today but havent been looked at. That was just fishing. He had no real reason to put iroh on antibiotics which is why im on this forum asking questions. This is my first dragon but im not a fan of throwing medicatiins around and just hoping. He is an ARAV member has a very good reputation for what thats worth. He doesnt recommend probiotics but i do have acidophilis in the fridge.

Well temps sound good, and if his last fecal was negative in May? but he did have a positive fecal and treatment prior, it may be worth another fecal just to be sure....Did you disinfect his entire enclosure and everything in at after the first parasite infection?

I'm glad your vet is a certified reptile vet, but that makes no difference when it comes to just prescribing antibiotics with no signs of infection, no elevated white cells and no cultures done, yet he prescribed 2 broad-spectrum antibiotics "just in case", which is the new trend apparently. The problem is that the antibiotics almost always make them sick themselves, and if there is no sign of bacterial infection then he shouldn't be medicated with 2 different antibiotics. And probiotics are a must, they are the only thing that keeps most beardies on medications from losing their appetites long-term. There's no reason for a vet to not recommend probiotics, they help tremendously by replacing the normal, healthy bacteria in their gastrointestinal tracts, and settle their stomachs... Especially if he's on 2 different antibiotics...

I'd wait and see what the x-ray says before starting him on any meds, or at the very least I'd not ever give him 2 different strong, broad-spectrum antibiotics without giving him probiotics or soy yogurt 2-3 hours after giving the antibiotics. Probiotics cause no issues and do no harm at all, nothing but good, and so many times we see beardies go through antibiotics or antiparasitics and then they stop eating, are extremely lethargic, and lose weight for months following the medications, but if they are given probiotics they seem to do just fine on the meds...

This is a tough one, maybe someone else will have something to add, but I would say #1 wait for the x-ray results because if it happens to show any crystals then that combined with an elevated protein level will indicate gout, or he might see something else that is a red flag, and #2 if the x-ray shows nothing of note, then I'd do another fecal since he hasn't had one in a few months, and he did have a prior parasite infection that may have reinfected...

I didn't ask, what is his normal daily diet?

Thank you for your time. His enclosure gets disinfected regularly and he doesnt empty himself in there either. At all. I agree that a fecal wouldnt hurt. I have a microscope with a camera and some float kits. I might try to take some pictures for the vet to look at before i take him in. Irohs daily diet consists of crickets and a mix of 2 to 3 of the following veggies: collards,escarole, endive, kale, and butternut squash.

I could still use help if anyone sees this. I have some new information. The x ray came back showing a pocket of gas in his bowel. The vet has it written down as follows: single population of gas in bowel. Just distal to the gi gas pocket is a fecal/granular material/mass.

He had a small bowel movement hours before this x ray. I find it very unlikely he has ingested anything foreign. Possibly my girlfriends hair but that isnt "granular".

Today i picked up lactulose from the vet and gave iroh his first dose. I am also to continue with antibiotics. Does anyone have any insight? I dont see the big picture.

What did the vet suggest that the granular mass might be, just a foreign body? A bit of gas is normal in the bowels, but I definitely see the mass he's talking about, which is just beside/below the pocket of gas, and is also very close to his spinal column...He's not having any problems with his back legs is he? It does look like the mass is inside his intestinal tract, but that could be just because it's next to the gas pocket. If he has a mass outside of his intestinal tract that is pushing on his intestinal tract and causing gas pressure, that could definitely cause a lack of appetite...

Did he say why he needs the antibiotics? What type of bacterial infection and where?

So a high blood protein level, and a granular mass inside his intestinal tract causing gas...

I don't see the big picture either, but if he has had that mass causing gas pressure for this entire time that could certainly explain his lack of appetite..

The vet really couldnt do anything but speculate on what the mass is. Maybe chitin or substrate. Maybe its just fecal matter. I dont have an explanation for the antibiotics either. I believe its because of the slightly elevated protein. Seems flimsy. Iroh doesnt have any problems with his back legs but i did take him out at lunch to see if he would try to poo and his beard started turning dark as if he might be in pain.

How serious does this look?

Age :
about 10 months , they do tend to become more laid back at about this age.
He should still be on two live insect feeds per day , cutting back to one per day at about 1 yr old.

Temperatures and noncontact thermometer :
The unit you have is OK , but I caution not suitable to be your only means of monitoring temperatures as it only measures surface temperatures ,
>>as it is set to an emissivity of 0.95 and many materials have different emissivities resulting in errors in the temperature measured for these
>>care needs to be taken to ensure no specular errors (reflections of the basking globe or even the sun , temp measured too high)
>>care needs to be taken to ensure the surface being measured FILLS the measuring spot, colder back grounds will cause an error (temp too low), hotter backgrounds (temp too high)
>>their calibration tends to drift
how to check calibration
> 1) ice/water mix , should read 0 degC , make sure to let sit for 15 mins then stir vigorously to make sure ice-melt has mixed throroughly
> 2) boiling water (rolling boil) ,should read 100 degC
> 3) plot these two measurements draw a line through them
> 4) plot the ideal temperatures and draw another line, you can now get the correction for any temperature inbetween 0 and 100 degC (is the difference).\

I recommend you purchase a few of these
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Aquarium-LCD-Electronic-Digital-Thermometer-Fish-Tank-Water-Detector-Practica-BU/252762165947?_trksid=p2385738.c100677.m4598&_trkparms=aid%3D222007%26algo%3DSIC.MBE%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D20160908110712%26meid%3D6ac464a2a1b24339be32c744b2ff5cf9%26pid%3D100677%26rk%3D2%26rkt%3D15%26sd%3D201577608563
and dangle their probes into viv at strategic spots , these can give either the surface temperature (if probe is secured so in contact with the surface being measured) and air temperatures (zone temperatures are usually air temperatures = IR radiation + air convection).

Granular stuff found in gut :
I have a strong hunch this is dietary (either the beardie's diet or the diet of the feeder insects).
>> Can you give us a rundown on his feeding schedule and what he gets .
>> can you give a rundown on how you feed , gutload and hydrate your feeder insects.

Photoperiod :
12 hours is too short, he thinks it's winter. The photoperiod in summer in their natural range is about 15 - 16 hours in summer in their natural range , I know this because I've worked and lived there.
I suggest bumping up your photoperiod to 15 - 16 hours per day. This will perk him up.

Pooing interval :
This changes as they get older and the slower their metabolism , hence longer the period between poos, and some beardies have slower metabolisms than others see my analysis of Peppa and Toothless's regularity : viewtopic.php?f=6&t=232446

UV :
what do you have (brand / type / reflector hood or dome / wattage / %UVB rating) and how far from the basking spot and floor & ontop or under mesh lid ?

Hi there, that's a great looking set up, how long has he been in it ? What exactly is his weight + length. ? It's true that at his size + age they sometimes take a mini brumation/siesta [ not a true brumation, but just a short phase of inactivity ] but of course they also may do that when not feeling well .

Is the enclosure new for him ? If so, he may feel a bit overwhelmed and trying to hide, as if he's in a new, dangerous area and wondering where his home is. This can especially be so with a large tank with many hiding areas.
Also, what is the wattage of the heat bulb or bulbs ?

UV:
22" reptisun 10.0HO 24w. The fixture is a carolina custom cages unit with reflector. There is nothing between the lights and him. All lights are adjustable if need be. At the time i wrote this his uvb was measured at 70 microwatts/cm squared at its strongest where he mainly basks. The uvb bulb is 14" at its closest point right now.

Temp:
Thanks for that info. I will check to see if mine is calibrated and try to educate myself further on the subject. I have a zoo med probe that gives me readings consistent with the infrared.

Diet:
Irohs daily diet consists of crickets and a mix of 2 to 3 of the following veggies: collards,escarole, endive, kale, and butternut squash. He also gets BSF larvae and wax worms from time to time. He has been given silk worms in the past. When cactus pear is available he gets that regularly. I give him crickets in the morning and he usually eats greens at that time and i will give him crickets in the evening. As a general rule i wait about an hour for him to heat up in the morning before i feed and make sure he has at least an hour of light left in the evening. All the crickets get are flukers orange cubes and cricket quencher.

Very cool info on the regularity of those dragons. I really like to see that kind of data.

Last week his weight was 417grams and 18 1/2". He has been in that cage for about 5 months and really seems to like it. He uses almsot all of it. Before this episode he did not hide once for about 4 months. His main basking bulb is a zoo med 50w i have a smaller bulb on the right side to help reach that lower area but couldnt tell you exactly what it is at this time. It is attached to the uvb fixture.

So then it's either just his mood and a phase he's going through or he may be feeling a bit off.

If true, thats very relieving. What do you suggest to make make out of the x ray and iroh being on antibiotics?

I must say, thank you all for giving so much attention to my guy.

I'm not an expert at reading xrays, if you Google b.d. xrays you'll see a lot of different " normal " xrays, it's difficult to pick out something that is harmful all the time. I do see the slight air pocket + the small mass next to it but can't say what it is.

I always am against giving antibiotics on a " just in case " basis. Those are powerful meds. and over use of them is the reason why humans now have MRSA + other super bugs that are resistant to most antibiotx.