Lethargic & losing weight

Ripley1015":1q5xxmrw said:

Hi everyone, Ripley is a year and 3 months old. For the past 2 weeks, she's been lethargic just kind of laying there and not eating much at all. Last month in the beginning of may I thought she might have had infertile eggs because she was glass dancing and turning her enclosure upside down. I brought her to the vet on April 28th to get an Xray to be sure and she did not have eggs but the vet did say she was ovulating and her behavior was due to hormones. He said she looked good, bone density was also good. I take it that she was going through "Spring fever" as this is the first summer she is an adult ( I got her last April). the first 2 weeks of may she was constantly glass dancing and extremely active, leaving little poops around everywhere, I made her a lay box with play sand just incase she developed eggs and she never took an interest to the lay box. during this time she didn't eat much but was having normal bowel movements. Now all of a sudden shes very lethargic just laying there, in the morning she doesn't go to her basking rock and her back legs seems to be weak. shes not really walking around or interested in food, although when I give her water from a syringe she drinks ALOT, She's still having bowel movements. Could she be eggbound? I'm worried about that, she is also about to go through a HUGE shed which could also be it but I'm not sure. She hasn't had a big shed in a few months, especially her body and belly. Now she's all gray from her head, belly, back, feet and hands. She's also lost some weight, here are the weights I've randomly recorded:
4/26 -525g (glass dancing)
4/27- 518g
4/28- Vet visit, XRAY done - no eggs

5/4- 503g
5/17- 499g
6/9- 496g
6/12- started becoming lethargic and less active
6/22 today - 469g

so from the spring fever till now her appetite has been poor, she occasional eats a dubia if I hold it out in front of her but she has not ate on her own out of her bowls. She's still alert and looks around but does not move around her enclosure or even when I let her out she kind of just lays there, it looks like her back legs are weak but I'm thinking she cant have MBD since she just had an xray and the vet said bone density was good can she? When I put her in a bath she does move her back legs around trying to get out, I do see her get up once in awhile. Today she got up and moved around a bit to rub her shed off but shes gotten me very worried. She also goes under her log alot which she never did before, goes to sleep early and wakes up late, Here are the things that are going through my head... eggbound? MBD? injury to the legs? Shedding behavior? sick? brumation?? here are a few pics of her today

her diet: mustard greens, turnip greens, escarole, collard greens, blueberries occasional, squash, green beans (although she rarely eats her greens, she prefers her bugs)
Protein: Dubias are her staple and occasional supers, hornworms, BSFL

Enclosure:
-40G tank,Slate tiles for flooring
-ReptiSun 10.0 T5 mounted inside the tank with reflector
50w flood light for basking, basking temps are 99-105, warm side 86-92 cool side 78-85
I use a thermal digital temp gun to measure temps, I also have a solarmeter to measure her UVI to test the UVB bulbs, she gets calcium dusted on her bugs and a multivitamin twice a week but she hasnt been eating =/
I'm not sure what's going on with her, I'm hoping its because of the shedding. She literally just went under her log but came back out and is gaping with her mouth open. Always sagging her belly and lower part of her body, just last month she was doing laps around my apt and running back and fourth in her enclosure =[ any thoughts??

Click to expand...

nathb1":ws9j4zn2 said:

Ripley1015":ws9j4zn2 said:

Hi everyone, Ripley is a year and 3 months old. I'm worried about that, she is also about to go through a HUGE shed which could also be it but I'm not sure. She hasn't had a big shed in a few months, especially her body and belly.
.
.
.
.
Now she's all gray from her head, belly, back, feet and hands. She's also lost some weight, here are the weights I've randomly recorded:
4/26 -525g (glass dancing)
4/27- 518g
4/28- Vet visit, XRAY done - no eggs

5/4- 503g
5/17- 499g
6/9- 496g
6/12- started becoming lethargic and less active
6/22 today - 469g

<<< as larger juveniles and adults , they can easily poo away 30g in one big poo.


I think your beardie is just slowing down - becoming an adult and perhaps your UVB tube is too old and no longer producing sufficient UVA and UVB , and performing more like a UVB5.0 or even a UVB2.0 now.


so from the spring fever till now her appetite has been poor, she occasional eats a dubia if I hold it out in front of her but she has not ate on her own out of her bowls. She's still alert and looks around but does not move around her enclosure or even when I let her out she kind of just lays there, it looks like her back legs are weak but I'm thinking she cant have MBD since she just had an xray and the vet said bone density was good can she? When I put her in a bath she does move her back legs around trying to get out, I do see her get up once in awhile. Today she got up and moved around a bit to rub her shed off but shes gotten me very worried. She also goes under her log alot which she never did before, goes to sleep early and wakes up late, Here are the things that are going through my head... eggbound? MBD? injury to the legs? Shedding behavior? sick? brumation?? here are a few pics of her today

<<<< setup looks OK , can you tell us the size of the viv L x W x H .


her diet: mustard greens, turnip greens, escarole, collard greens, blueberries occasional, squash, green beans (although she rarely eats her greens, she prefers her bugs)
Protein: Dubias are her staple and occasional supers, hornworms, BSFL

Enclosure:
-40G tank,Slate tiles for flooring
-ReptiSun 10.0 T5 mounted inside the tank with reflector
50w flood light for basking, basking temps are 99-105, warm side 86-92 cool side 78-85
I use a thermal digital temp gun to measure temps, I also have a solarmeter to measure her UVI to test the UVB bulbs, she gets calcium dusted on her bugs and a multivitamin twice a week but she hasnt been eating =/
I'm not sure what's going on with her, I'm hoping its because of the shedding. She literally just went under her log but came back out and is gaping with her mouth open. Always sagging her belly and lower part of her body, just last month she was doing laps around my apt and running back and fourth in her enclosure =[ any thoughts??

Click to expand...

I know my dragon has been hiding as well, come outs every few days or I take him out every few days of hiding. Mine doesnt really eat on his own either I handfeed everyday to make sure he gets bugs and salad. Mine been like this since April as well used to eat on his own and I usually handfed him too but now being lazy! I know theres nothing wrong with him because when I take him outside he runs like the dickens!
If you are concern about her weight maybe handfeed her everyday and see if her weight will increase.
Like someone suggested might be a parasite as well...

Click to expand...

nathb1":7w1i5tt5 said:

Ripley1015":7w1i5tt5 said:

Hi everyone, Ripley is a year and 3 months old. For the past 2 weeks, she's been lethargic just kind of laying there and not eating much at all. Last month in the beginning of may I thought she might have had infertile eggs because she was glass dancing and turning her enclosure upside down. I brought her to the vet on April 28th to get an Xray to be sure and she did not have eggs but the vet did say she was ovulating and her behavior was due to hormones. He said she looked good, bone density was also good. I take it that she was going through "Spring fever" as this is the first summer she is an adult ( I got her last April). the first 2 weeks of may she was constantly glass dancing and extremely active, leaving little poops around everywhere, I made her a lay box with play sand just incase she developed eggs and she never took an interest to the lay box. during this time she didn't eat much but was having normal bowel movements. Now all of a sudden shes very lethargic just laying there, in the morning she doesn't go to her basking rock and her back legs seems to be weak. shes not really walking around or interested in food, although when I give her water from a syringe she drinks ALOT, She's still having bowel movements. Could she be eggbound? I'm worried about that, she is also about to go through a HUGE shed which could also be it but I'm not sure. She hasn't had a big shed in a few months, especially her body and belly. Now she's all gray from her head, belly, back, feet and hands. She's also lost some weight, here are the weights I've randomly recorded:
4/26 -525g (glass dancing)
4/27- 518g
4/28- Vet visit, XRAY done - no eggs

5/4- 503g
5/17- 499g
6/9- 496g
6/12- started becoming lethargic and less active
6/22 today - 469g

so from the spring fever till now her appetite has been poor, she occasional eats a dubia if I hold it out in front of her but she has not ate on her own out of her bowls. She's still alert and looks around but does not move around her enclosure or even when I let her out she kind of just lays there, it looks like her back legs are weak but I'm thinking she cant have MBD since she just had an xray and the vet said bone density was good can she? When I put her in a bath she does move her back legs around trying to get out, I do see her get up once in awhile. Today she got up and moved around a bit to rub her shed off but shes gotten me very worried. She also goes under her log alot which she never did before, goes to sleep early and wakes up late, Here are the things that are going through my head... eggbound? MBD? injury to the legs? Shedding behavior? sick? brumation?? here are a few pics of her today

her diet: mustard greens, turnip greens, escarole, collard greens, blueberries occasional, squash, green beans (although she rarely eats her greens, she prefers her bugs)
Protein: Dubias are her staple and occasional supers, hornworms, BSFL

Enclosure:
-40G tank,Slate tiles for flooring
-ReptiSun 10.0 T5 mounted inside the tank with reflector
50w flood light for basking, basking temps are 99-105, warm side 86-92 cool side 78-85
I use a thermal digital temp gun to measure temps, I also have a solarmeter to measure her UVI to test the UVB bulbs, she gets calcium dusted on her bugs and a multivitamin twice a week but she hasnt been eating =/
I'm not sure what's going on with her, I'm hoping its because of the shedding. She literally just went under her log but came back out and is gaping with her mouth open. Always sagging her belly and lower part of her body, just last month she was doing laps around my apt and running back and fourth in her enclosure =[ any thoughts??

Click to expand...

I know my dragon has been hiding as well, come outs every few days or I take him out every few days of hiding. Mine doesnt really eat on his own either I handfeed everyday to make sure he gets bugs and salad. Mine been like this since April as well used to eat on his own and I usually handfed him too but now being lazy! I know theres nothing wrong with him because when I take him outside he runs like the dickens!
If you are concern about her weight maybe handfeed her everyday and see if her weight will increase.
Like someone suggested might be a parasite as well...

Click to expand...

kingofnobbys":3f2gxkp3 said:

How old is the UVB tube ? was it installed longer than 6 months ago ?

If it's older than 6 months old, I strongly recommend installing a new uvb tube rated at least 12%UVB.

Can she get inside 10inches from the UVB tube ? if not , can you add a UVB basking spot that will let her get to maybe 8 inches from the uvb tube so she can get a really good dose of BOTH UVA and UVB.
too far and the UVA and UVB WILL BE TOO DILUTE.
UVA FLUX TOO LOW where dragon is ==> a very lethargic dragon w/ a very poor apetite just in the short term , and neurological problems if this persists , not to mention MVB if UVB flux too low long enough with inadequate metabolisation of dietary calcium or inadequate intake out calcium

and

Click to expand...

kingofnobbys":2fh43qaw said:

nathb1":2fh43qaw said:

Ripley1015":2fh43qaw said:

Hi everyone, Ripley is a year and 3 months old. I'm worried about that, she is also about to go through a HUGE shed which could also be it but I'm not sure. She hasn't had a big shed in a few months, especially her body and belly.
.
.
.
.
Now she's all gray from her head, belly, back, feet and hands. She's also lost some weight, here are the weights I've randomly recorded:
4/26 -525g (glass dancing)
4/27- 518g
4/28- Vet visit, XRAY done - no eggs

5/4- 503g
5/17- 499g
6/9- 496g
6/12- started becoming lethargic and less active
6/22 today - 469g

<<< as larger juveniles and adults , they can easily poo away 30g in one big poo.


I think your beardie is just slowing down - becoming an adult and perhaps your UVB tube is too old and no longer producing sufficient UVA and UVB , and performing more like a UVB5.0 or even a UVB2.0 now.


so from the spring fever till now her appetite has been poor, she occasional eats a dubia if I hold it out in front of her but she has not ate on her own out of her bowls. She's still alert and looks around but does not move around her enclosure or even when I let her out she kind of just lays there, it looks like her back legs are weak but I'm thinking she cant have MBD since she just had an xray and the vet said bone density was good can she? When I put her in a bath she does move her back legs around trying to get out, I do see her get up once in awhile. Today she got up and moved around a bit to rub her shed off but shes gotten me very worried. She also goes under her log alot which she never did before, goes to sleep early and wakes up late, Here are the things that are going through my head... eggbound? MBD? injury to the legs? Shedding behavior? sick? brumation?? here are a few pics of her today

<<<< setup looks OK , can you tell us the size of the viv L x W x H .


her diet: mustard greens, turnip greens, escarole, collard greens, blueberries occasional, squash, green beans (although she rarely eats her greens, she prefers her bugs)
Protein: Dubias are her staple and occasional supers, hornworms, BSFL

Enclosure:
-40G tank,Slate tiles for flooring
-ReptiSun 10.0 T5 mounted inside the tank with reflector
50w flood light for basking, basking temps are 99-105, warm side 86-92 cool side 78-85
I use a thermal digital temp gun to measure temps, I also have a solarmeter to measure her UVI to test the UVB bulbs, she gets calcium dusted on her bugs and a multivitamin twice a week but she hasnt been eating =/
I'm not sure what's going on with her, I'm hoping its because of the shedding. She literally just went under her log but came back out and is gaping with her mouth open. Always sagging her belly and lower part of her body, just last month she was doing laps around my apt and running back and fourth in her enclosure =[ any thoughts??

Click to expand...

I know my dragon has been hiding as well, come outs every few days or I take him out every few days of hiding. Mine doesnt really eat on his own either I handfeed everyday to make sure he gets bugs and salad. Mine been like this since April as well used to eat on his own and I usually handfed him too but now being lazy! I know theres nothing wrong with him because when I take him outside he runs like the dickens!
If you are concern about her weight maybe handfeed her everyday and see if her weight will increase.
Like someone suggested might be a parasite as well...

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

EllenD":1xqmjbwn said:

Hi, I'm sorry you're going through this. As already stated they can lose 20g-30g from a large bowel movement, so even though she has lost a bit of weight I'm not as concerned about that as I am the lack of appetite and especially the lack of use of her back legs. You cannot attribute weak or partially paralyzed back legs to parasites or brumation, and that's what I think you need to focus on. All of her other symptoms can be explained away as just slowing down as she is becoming as adult, hormonal behavior, parasites, a bacterial infection, etc. but not the weak back legs.

Is she actually dragging her back legs? It also appears like she has a bit of a black beard in one of the photos? If so, that's indicative of pain or discomfort. You said her bowel movements are normal (and she has no loose substrates and looks to be well hydrated), when she does go does she strain at all to poop or have any difficulty? Impaction is a common cause of suddenly weak back legs as the fecal matter pushes on the spinal column, but again that isn't her problem. So we have to move on to the other two common causes of her symptoms including the weak back legs or dragging back legs and a black beard, and they are MBD and egg-binding. Her x-ray shows very good bone density in my opinion, and she's got a great UVB light and is properly supplemented, and has a good diet. You said a Reptisun 10.0 T5, as in the High-Output tube UVB? And it's mounted inside her enclosure and has a reflector. Is there any type of clear, plastic cover over the light? I'd have to say that MBD seems highly unlikely too.

I have a lot of experience with egg-binding in birds, as I bred several species of parrots for over 20 years, and it's both a tricky and fatal condition, and in bearded dragons it's not uncommon for the eggs to not show up on an x-ray if it's early (follicles will not show up at all), in fact I've seen and read of many cases of egg-binding where an x-ray was done and showed nothing at all. And her x-ray was 2 months ago, correct? Granted they usually do try to lay when they are egg-bound, but not necessarily. If she does have a black beard, as it appears that she does in the photo above, and she's not eating and lethargic, combined with the loss of the use of her back legs, I'd be very concerned about infertile eggs. Yes shedding can cause a lot of stress and discomfort but I've never heard of it weakening their back legs.

If it's been 2 months since she had the x-ray done (and I can only tell you my opinion and what I would do), I would take her back to the same vet, if that vet is a certified reptile vet with bearded dragon experience, and if not then I'd find the nearest board certified reptile vet and take her, and request a repeat x-ray based on the weak back legs (did she have the weak back legs when the first x-ray was done?), and if the x-ray shows eggs then you know immediately what the problem is. If not, then I'd request blood work to check her White Cell count (rule out Infection), blood calcium levels (MBD), uric acid levels (gout), etc. It's good to have a complete blood panel done anyway if she's never had it, at least you'll then have a baseline to compare to in the future, but it will also rule a lot out. In the meantime I'd put a basking lamp over the laybox you made (playsand wetted down but not damp), start digging a tunnel for her, then put her in it for an hour or two each day and see if she might be tempted to use it. If she's in pain she may be too weak physically to want to do it, hence the egg-binding. It's just my opinion, but the weakened/dragging back legs, the black beard, and the lethargy combined with her age all point to a clutch of infertile eggs pushing on her spinal column.

If she

Click to expand...

EllenD":3dab45yl said:

Hi, I'm sorry you're going through this. As already stated they can lose 20g-30g from a large bowel movement, so even though she has lost a bit of weight I'm not as concerned about that as I am the lack of appetite and especially the lack of use of her back legs. You cannot attribute weak or partially paralyzed back legs to parasites or brumation, and that's what I think you need to focus on. All of her other symptoms can be explained away as just slowing down as she is becoming as adult, hormonal behavior, parasites, a bacterial infection, etc. but not the weak back legs.

Is she actually dragging her back legs? It also appears like she has a bit of a black beard in one of the photos? If so, that's indicative of pain or discomfort. You said her bowel movements are normal (and she has no loose substrates and looks to be well hydrated), when she does go does she strain at all to poop or have any difficulty? Impaction is a common cause of suddenly weak back legs as the fecal matter pushes on the spinal column, but again that isn't her problem. So we have to move on to the other two common causes of her symptoms including the weak back legs or dragging back legs and a black beard, and they are MBD and egg-binding. Her x-ray shows very good bone density in my opinion, and she's got a great UVB light and is properly supplemented, and has a good diet. You said a Reptisun 10.0 T5, as in the High-Output tube UVB? And it's mounted inside her enclosure and has a reflector. Is there any type of clear, plastic cover over the light? I'd have to say that MBD seems highly unlikely too.

I have a lot of experience with egg-binding in birds, as I bred several species of parrots for over 20 years, and it's both a tricky and fatal condition, and in bearded dragons it's not uncommon for the eggs to not show up on an x-ray if it's early (follicles will not show up at all), in fact I've seen and read of many cases of egg-binding where an x-ray was done and showed nothing at all. And her x-ray was 2 months ago, correct? Granted they usually do try to lay when they are egg-bound, but not necessarily. If she does have a black beard, as it appears that she does in the photo above, and she's not eating and lethargic, combined with the loss of the use of her back legs, I'd be very concerned about infertile eggs. Yes shedding can cause a lot of stress and discomfort but I've never heard of it weakening their back legs.

If it's been 2 months since she had the x-ray done (and I can only tell you my opinion and what I would do), I would take her back to the same vet, if that vet is a certified reptile vet with bearded dragon experience, and if not then I'd find the nearest board certified reptile vet and take her, and request a repeat x-ray based on the weak back legs (did she have the weak back legs when the first x-ray was done?), and if the x-ray shows eggs then you know immediately what the problem is. If not, then I'd request blood work to check her White Cell count (rule out Infection), blood calcium levels (MBD), uric acid levels (gout), etc. It's good to have a complete blood panel done anyway if she's never had it, at least you'll then have a baseline to compare to in the future, but it will also rule a lot out. In the meantime I'd put a basking lamp over the laybox you made (playsand wetted down but not damp), start digging a tunnel for her, then put her in it for an hour or two each day and see if she might be tempted to use it. If she's in pain she may be too weak physically to want to do it, hence the egg-binding. It's just my opinion, but the weakened/dragging back legs, the black beard, and the lethargy combined with her age all point to a clutch of infertile eggs pushing on her spinal column.

If she

Click to expand...

AHBD":2sio27wf said:

So she likes her " milkshakes " . It's probably Oxbow Critical Care or one of their other products. And I agree that she may have had egg follicles and possibly resorbed them, but fully shelled eggs would not be resorbed and would almost always show up on Xray, although I have seen some where the outline of the eggs was so feint that it was hard to make them out. If she were eggbound she wouldn't last very long.....it may be that she ressorbed follicles and has not felt too good since then. .

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AHBD":2rzcetl5 said:

Yes, you can Google + buy it on line. The Carnivore Care is very high in protein and fat, so only a bit of it needs to be given. Some dragons actually gain weight while on it, which you don't want to happen unless she were skinny + obviously underweight. You might blend up a smoothie from greens like turnip, mustard, collard and add to it to balance out the high fat + protein content.

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