one month baby dragon stargazing?

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Iamakel

Member
Hey guys, recently one of my 5 baby dragons started doing this:
http://imgur.com/1Dxbfeo

He eats; he's active; he's pooping etc, all characteristics of a healthy baby dragon.

What do you think? Is he stargazing? He's the only one that does this..
 

kingofnobbys

BD.org Sicko
Looks like it to me .... his prognosis is not good if he is as it's indicative of Atadenovirus and if he has it , his entire clutch has it.
http://blogs.thatpetplace.com/thatreptileblog/2012/08/28/bearded-dragon-health-atadenovirus-wasting-disease-star-gazing/#.WUEv9zE6yHs

Atadenovirus is highly infectious and fatal..

Every one of them needs to be separately housed and you need to have good hygiene (washing hands so no cross contamination occurs if they are all from different clutches - likely too late already though.
 

Iamakel

Member
Original Poster
kingofnobbys":1jy59wub said:
Looks like it to me .... his prognosis is not good if he is as it's indicative of Atadenovirus and if he has it , his entire clutch has it.
http://blogs.thatpetplace.com/thatreptileblog/2012/08/28/bearded-dragon-health-atadenovirus-wasting-disease-star-gazing/#.WUEv9zE6yHs

If you are the breeder, never allow that clutch's parents to ever breed again as it's unethical to allow Atadenovirus positive male and females to reproduce , Atadenovirus is highly infectious and fatal..

Every one of them needs to be separately housed and you need to have good hygiene (washing hands so no cross contamination occurs if they are all from different clutches - likely too late already though.

Yeah it is too late. I'm going to quote myself from a previous post. I'm not a breeder, I just did it one time for a couple of friends that wanted beardies and give them for free.

In December 2016 I bought my two beardies from a girl that couldn't keep them anymore. In my city, one beardie is 122$ and I bought both of them + terarium with 50$. She wanted to sell them as she was a 9th grader and couldn't maintain school + "parenting" so I mostly got them to help her out and because I love animals. When she got them (from a bad breeder), she got them tailless mostly:
http://imgur.com/EuPhEv5

The breeder told her that they are sister and brother but after I got them I did some research and noticed that the girl (yellowish white) is a Pogona Minor and the boy is a regular Pogona Vitticeps (I don't know how they could be brothers to be honest):

http://i.imgur.com/NPaUPxL.jpg - the male

the female I think is a Pogona Minor:
http://i.imgur.com/yIKxVMK.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/EMSKWQ8.jpg

Whatever, the "fishy" thing I'm creating this topic is this. She kept them together for one year and half and so did I. They don't fight and the girl (even she's smaller) seems more dominant than the male. I tried to separate them but they seem sad one without other (not eating much, hardly active etc). She laid eggs 4 times in 2 years. I decided in February to keep them. I had 7 eggs in the homemade incubator and all of them made it. One died after getting out of the egg and one died because he had such a big eggsack. Now they are all good. I feed them vegetables in the morning (around 10-11am) and Cinerea in the evening (around 5pm). I have a little colony of Cinerea due to my 3 tarantulas and I feed the beardies with the babies from the roaches. I tried feed them 3 times a day but they won't eat that much.

The one with the "broken" tail doesn't hunt by himself so I have to give him food by hand (opening his mouth with the little roach's head and put the head inside his month so he starts chewing and eating). Is this normal? He's not blind. I checked. He's observing everything around him when I take him out!

https://m.imgur.com/m6cZZVL?r"

There is nothing else to do if they all are infested, right?

PS: the rest of them seem fine, no actions of atadenovirus yet. Now when I think better, if they make it to adulthood I'm going to keep them all.

edit: the one with simptoms seems weakened. I put them to sleep and after 5 minutes I looked in the viv and he was on his back and I put him back to normal..
 

kingofnobbys

BD.org Sicko
Iamakel":zon2qmp3 said:
kingofnobbys":zon2qmp3 said:
Looks like it to me .... his prognosis is not good if he is as it's indicative of Atadenovirus and if he has it , his entire clutch has it.
http://blogs.thatpetplace.com/thatreptileblog/2012/08/28/bearded-dragon-health-atadenovirus-wasting-disease-star-gazing/#.WUEv9zE6yHs

If you are the breeder, never allow that clutch's parents to ever breed again as it's unethical to allow Atadenovirus positive male and females to reproduce , Atadenovirus is highly infectious and fatal..

Every one of them needs to be separately housed and you need to have good hygiene (washing hands so no cross contamination occurs if they are all from different clutches - likely too late already though.

Yeah it is too late. I'm going to quote myself from a previous post. I'm not a breeder, I just did it one time for a couple of friends that wanted beardies and give them for free.

In December 2016 I bought my two beardies from a girl that couldn't keep them anymore. In my city, one beardie is 122$ and I bought both of them + terarium with 50$. She wanted to sell them as she was a 9th grader and couldn't maintain school + "parenting" so I mostly got them to help her out and because I love animals. When she got them (from a bad breeder), she got them tailless mostly:
http://imgur.com/EuPhEv5

The breeder told her that they are sister and brother but after I got them I did some research and noticed that the girl (yellowish white) is a Pogona Minor and the boy is a regular Pogona Vitticeps (I don't know how they could be brothers to be honest): <<< Pogona Minor is very rare outside Australia , and even in Australia very few keepers have them (restrictions on interstate exports from WA) .... if you have a Pogona Minor (Minor Minor , Minor Mitchelli or Minor Maxima) it's like originally wildcaught and trafficked.
It takes a good eye to pick the 4 species Minor Minor, Minor Michelli , Minor Maxima and smaller Vitticepps apart , and there is overlap in their natural ranges so you may a hybrid of mixed parentage in one of the parents.

http://i.imgur.com/NPaUPxL.jpg - the male

the female I think is a Pogona Minor:
http://i.imgur.com/yIKxVMK.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/EMSKWQ8.jpg

Whatever, the "fishy" thing I'm creating this topic is this. She kept them together for one year and half and so did I. They don't fight and the girl (even she's smaller) seems more dominant than the male. I tried to separate them but they seem sad one without other (not eating much, hardly active etc). She laid eggs 4 times in 2 years. I decided in February to keep them. I had 7 eggs in the homemade incubator and all of them made it. One died after getting out of the egg and one died because he had such a big eggsack. Now they are all good. I feed them vegetables in the morning (around 10-11am) and Cinerea in the evening (around 5pm). I have a little colony of Cinerea due to my 3 tarantulas and I feed the beardies with the babies from the roaches. I tried feed them 3 times a day but they won't eat that much.
<<< I don't like the sounds of that - please separate them pair ASAP and no more breeding with these two, they will soon adjust to being in their own personal vivs , and will likely "communicate" with each other when one or the other is out , esp if the sick hatchling tests pos for AV.

The one with the "broken" tail doesn't hunt by himself so I have to give him food by hand (opening his mouth with the little roach's head and put the head inside his month so he starts chewing and eating). Is this normal? He's not blind. I checked. He's observing everything around him when I take him out!

https://m.imgur.com/m6cZZVL?r"

There is nothing else to do if they all are infested, right?

PS: the rest of them seem fine, no actions of atadenovirus yet. Now when I think better, if they make it to adulthood I'm going to keep them all.

edit: the one with simptoms seems weakened. I put them to sleep and after 5 minutes I looked in the viv and he was on his back and I put him back to normal..
 

Iamakel

Member
Original Poster
Thanks for the replies. About their mom: yes I took a big look through photos of Vitticeps and Minor and her head is way similiar to a Minor and also her dwarf size, even though she eats more than the male but she doesn't grow "masive" as he does. She's way aggressive than the male, and when I say that it is because she will want to eat everything that's moving (even when she sees a bottle of mineral water and goes straight to it trying to "eat" the bubbles of it). The male is calm, very active and not-so-wanting insects. He likes eating veggies alot. Whatever, if they are Atadenovirus positive, they are healthy and they are just caring the virus. I will invest and try to separate them as soon as possible.

The only baby that gives Atadenovirus simptoms seems weak (2 days ago he was all good not giving any simptoms, eating, observing etc). I put them to sleep 3 hours ago and he is still awake and moving around. When I take him out in the bed and start rubbing his head he sleeps but then wakes up and starts stargazing. It goes the same when he's in the viv. He wants to sleep but the virus won't let him I guess.

It is there I can do? The reason of all of this started may be the UVB Neon that died 2 days ago? I purchased one but they will ship it these days. I tried to get them outside in the sunlight (35° Celsius these days) for about 20-30 minutes with 10 minutes of basking directly into the sunlight as they don't have the uvb neon at this moment. I have two bulbs in each viv, one for heat and one for uvb. I can tell you the details about them if it is needed.

edit: he is still not sleeping and he's kinda disturbing the others' sleep.
Here's a video of what he does now:
https://youtu.be/7KbpFpK09Xc

I'm very upset because I love them and only I know how much I take care of them and so on (there are 2 that don't eat, this one too, and I feed them by hand every day, don't care if there's a busy day)...
 

kingofnobbys

BD.org Sicko
Fortunately (for my beardies) Atadenovirus is virtually unheard of here (Australia), so I've never encounteted a beardie suffering it's neurological and physical symptoms and probably never will.
Reading about it - it's a nasty one.

Perhaps if you send a PM to Drache613 she might take a look at your thread and advise on what you need to do to help the little "stargazer" and the parents. Definitely worth getting blood tests on the parents to assess their Atadenovirus status , the wee hatchlings are probably too small and young to take bloods from to test for Atadenovirus (but I'm no vet and am only speculating).

http://www.petmd.com/reptile/conditions/digestive/c_rp_Adenoviruses?page=2
a 90 day period of quaranteen and intensive infection control measures is called for - esp if you other AV clear reptiles in the house.


You also DEFINITELY NEED TO ACQUIRE the following :
A F10 spray bottle
A 200ml bottle of F10sc .... to make up F10 spray solution to sterilize the viv regularly (1 part F10sc in 150 parts water will exterminate any viruses and bacteria on surfaces the hatchlings and AV infected parents have been in touch with - very important !
A tub of F10 Wipes ... to wipe hands with before and after handling each hatchling
 

kingofnobbys

BD.org Sicko
Possible configuration for separately housing all 5 hatchings in 100L rearing tubs (TOP VIEW)
5_tubs_sidebyside_config.png


see also tub set up for stacking 100L tubs , you could do 2 or 3 tub tall stacks (depending on how tall you are) ... Personally I'd restrict it 2 tub tall stacks (for ease of access to the interiors of the tubs (by sliding the lids partway off). see viewtopic.php?f=34&t=233480
 

Iamakel

Member
Original Poster
Okay so I started looking around for medicinal ways to increase the immune system of the stargazer. 2 of my 5 baby beardies were small, skinny and not eating by themselves. I always fed them by hand. The other 3 seem fine, eating and so on.

Today I went to a vet (definetly not knowing about bearded dragons) and told her I've got bearded dragons that are suffering from Atadenovirus. I asked her for Colloidal Silver and she gave me this used mostly for 6+months children.

http://imgur.com/aCRAvKY
http://i.imgur.com/Vsotugj.jpg

It was her only big colloidal silver. It cost me 25 bucks and the other ones were like 6-7 bucks. I went for the most expensive. I bought two insulin syringes and went home. I broke the needle of one and went to 0,5ml of colloidal silver. I started to give it to the one with the zigzag tail (photos above). He seemed fine, eating it kinda. HE WAS NOT STARGAZING LIKE THE OTHER ONE BUT HE WAS WEAK. Today in the morning the stargazer looked fine, no stargazing no nothing. He was basking, hiding etc. After I gave the liquid to the zigzag tailled he started stargazing and open his mouth while doing that. I thought it may be some respiration problem so I put him close to the heat bulb. After few minutes he started getting weaker. I put them in a lil bit of water, he relaxed and died (he didn't put his head in the water causing an eventually drowing). That's the 3rd death of my babies. There are 4 more and the stargazer. I wanted to give this colloidal silver to the other 3 too but I'm not going to risk it. If the problems occurs with the stargazer tomorrow I'm going to buy the 6-7 colloidal silver on which is a big title of "COLLOIDAL SILVER". I take it as my mistake. I wasted money on this **** medication that killed my baby. I tasted it a little bit and it is very mint. I went directly for the vet's advice but it seems a bad one.

Take care all, I hope at least one of the babies will survive. I let them incubate just to not kill the eggs in the fridge.. now this is happening to them while grown babies..

What you suggest me to do? I'm really stressed about this thing + the fact that this summer I'm starting the veterinary medicine college and there goes a lot of exams during this period. I'm giving them as much time as I can...
 

kingofnobbys

BD.org Sicko
Iamakel":1wiplfff said:
Okay so I started looking around for medicinal ways to increase the immune system of the stargazer. 2 of my 5 baby beardies were small, skinny and not eating by themselves. I always fed them by hand. The other 3 seem fine, eating and so on.

Today I went to a vet (definetly not knowing about bearded dragons) and told her I've got bearded dragons that are suffering from Atadenovirus. I asked her for Colloidal Silver and she gave me this used mostly for 6+months children.

http://imgur.com/aCRAvKY
http://i.imgur.com/Vsotugj.jpg

It was her only big colloidal silver. It cost me 25 bucks and the other ones were like 6-7 bucks. I went for the most expensive. I bought two insulin syringes and went home. I broke the needle of one and went to 0,5ml of colloidal silver. I started to give it to the one with the zigzag tail (photos above). He seemed fine, eating it kinda. HE WAS NOT STARGAZING LIKE THE OTHER ONE BUT HE WAS WEAK. Today in the morning the stargazer looked fine, no stargazing no nothing. He was basking, hiding etc. After I gave the liquid to the zigzag tailled he started stargazing and open his mouth while doing that. I thought it may be some respiration problem so I put him close to the heat bulb. After few minutes he started getting weaker. I put them in a lil bit of water, he relaxed and died (he didn't put his head in the water causing an eventually drowing). That's the 3rd death of my babies. There are 4 more and the stargazer. I wanted to give this colloidal silver to the other 3 too but I'm not going to risk it. If the problems occurs with the stargazer tomorrow I'm going to buy the 6-7 colloidal silver on which is a big title of "COLLOIDAL SILVER". I take it as my mistake. I wasted money on this ***** medication that killed my baby. I tasted it a little bit and it is very mint. I went directly for the vet's advice but it seems a bad one.

Take care all, I hope at least one of the babies will survive. I let them incubate just to not kill the eggs in the fridge.. now this is happening to them while grown babies..

What you suggest me to do? I'm really stressed about this thing + the fact that this summer I'm starting the veterinary medicine college and there goes a lot of exams during this period. I'm giving them as much as I can...

Oh no .... maybe it was the concoction or it was Atadenovirus that killed the poor little hatchling. It may well have died suddenly because of the Atadenovirus , that's how nasty this virus is from what I've read see http://www.reptilesmagazine.com/Reptile-Health/Habitats-Care/Atadenovirus-This-Disease-Can-Be-Deadly-To-Your-Bearded-Dragon/

Is the vet a HERP / REPTILE vet ?

Outside my area of knowledge - maybe Tracey ( Drache613 ) will have some incite . I don't know enough about the efficacy of colloidal silver in treating Atadenovirus , even if it's worth a try .

I urge you to PM her or email her .
 

Iamakel

Member
Original Poster
She wasn't a reptile vet. I just told her I want a colloidal silver. She asked for what and I explained to her what for. She said this one is good so I went for it (maybe it was just about money). Like I said, the one that died today seemed very good before grabbing him and giving him this med.

I will email Drache613. Thanks!
 

kingofnobbys

BD.org Sicko
I hope you can save the rest , but from what I've read , very young hatchlings who are infected with this nasty virus have a very poor prognosis ..

A quick search reveals no clinical guidelines on the doseage of colloidal silver per 100g body weight of a reptile , and only wishy-washy handwavey statements saying how great it is ( advertisements essentially ).
I'd hold off with using the rest until you have a clearance from a reptile vet to do so and succinct instructions on how to use it with small hatchlings.
 

Iamakel

Member
Original Poster
I hope that too, thanks. Their parents survived it even though they have half of the actual size of their tails and missing nails.
 

Drache613

BD.org Sicko
Staff member
Moderator
Hello,

Are you in Europe or Australia?
The bottle you posted a pic of isn't colloidal silver though, it is a nutritional supplement.
It is possible your little one aspirated the liquid, but also, it has potassium in it which it
could have been too high of dose perhaps.
It's ironic you mention colloidal silver because true colloidal silver is what I have been
using & tweaking for treating & a potential cure for Adeno. I hate to hear you are having
so many issues. It definitely does sound like Adeno symptoms.
Let me know where you are located because not all areas have testing that can be done
on such small dragons. They are under 100 grams so too small to have blood drawn.
If you have not already separated them, please do so just so they can relax & have their
own space. Keep them around 80 overnight, to help boost their immune systems.

Please review your tank setup as well, so we can be sure it is all correct. What types of
supplements are you giving them?

Tracie
 

Iamakel

Member
Original Poster
Drache613":2i8psljz said:
Hello,

Are you in Europe or Australia?
The bottle you posted a pic of isn't colloidal silver though, it is a nutritional supplement.
It is possible your little one aspirated the liquid, but also, it has potassium in it which it
could have been too high of dose perhaps.
It's ironic you mention colloidal silver because true colloidal silver is what I have been
using & tweaking for treating & a potential cure for Adeno. I hate to hear you are having
so many issues. It definitely does sound like Adeno symptoms.
Let me know where you are located because not all areas have testing that can be done
on such small dragons. They are under 100 grams so too small to have blood drawn.
If you have not already separated them, please do so just so they can relax & have their
own space. Keep them around 80 overnight, to help boost their immune systems.

Please review your tank setup as well, so we can be sure it is all correct. What types of
supplements are you giving them?

Tracie

Hello and thanks for the reply. I'm from Europe, more exactly from Romania. Overnight there's 77, the room's temp. I use JBL Microcalcium when I feed them.

http://imgur.com/srCywCp

Also I feed them with baby Cinerea roaches and sometimes I take a big one and cut it in small parts with the scissors. They like it more like this.

They are staying in a 130x90x60 tank with decorations: branches, tree trunks and many desert stones. I keep them on paper, no substrate. It is easier to clean their poop everyday. I also use Ciff Spray to disinfect the decorations once in 3 days.

I don't know if it was a sure calculation but when I weight them, two were 4 grams, one 5 grams, the fatty one 6 grams and the one that died yesterday and had a zigzag tail was 3 grams also this one wasn't eating on his own, I had to give him roaches by hand. When a bug was approaching him, he would have laid down and close his eyes.

The other colloidal silver bottles that the vet shop had were these if I'm not wrong:

http://www.farmaciastejara.ro/images/argint%20coloidal.JPG

https://4.bp.blogspot.com/-Ib5saKTPglw/VWg623AChBI/AAAAAAAABkQ/z9W1vWqa5cA/s320/argint%2Bcoloidal.png
 

Iamakel

Member
Original Poster
Sorry for double posting, I don't know if it is allowed and if it is not, an admin please edit my post.

I took them outside with the viv. Now there are 73 outside and it goes to 95 in few hours. I'm going to let them in fresh air for about 2 hours.

The stargazer seems very fine every morning. He's active, not stargazing etc. The stargazing starts during and after feeding. I read somewhere that stargazing may be a sign of respiration problem. Is that right? If it is, what should I do? Is there any cure?

Thanks!
 
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