Rygel - 20wks old and hard uratus

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BrightStar

Hatchling Member
My Rygel is a little over 20 weeks, and about 15". He usually has a poop once a day, and is very regular - almost always goes within 30 minutes after breakfast. Yesterday he didn't poop, but I put it down to me feeding him more dubias instead of his usual silkworms/hornworms. He did a poop on schedule today, but when I cleaned it up, I was concerned because there's a lot of yellow in his uratus, and it was very firm - practically like a rock

I usually feed him Phoenix worms mornings 4x a week, then offer a different feeder - hornworms, silkworms, roaches for his second feeding. He will easily eat 100 large Phoenix worms, and I don't dust them with calcium. I don't dust his feeders in the evening with calcium.

Tuesday I offer him any feeder but not Phoenix worms. I dust his morning feed with calcium.

Weekends he does not have Phoenix worms, and I don't dust his feeders with calcium. I dust his morning feeders both days with vitamins.

I'm fearful the hardness and yellowing of his uratus is due to too much calcium. Does my feeding and dusting schedule sound right?
 

MsCarter

Juvie Member
It actually sounds very good. Usually when i see yellow on my girls urate I know I need to back off of the calcium a little. When you do dust with calcium approximately how many insects are you dusting? You could try cutting that back just a tad and see if there is any improvement. It's perfectly normal for them to go off schedule sometimes and skip a day or two of pooping especially if there is a change in diet.
 

BrightStar

Hatchling Member
Original Poster
Rygel ended up having two bowel movements yesterday. The second was smaller than the first, and I couldn't tell how his uratus looked, as he'd gotten it all mixed up with the poop. It felt soft though - no hard rock-like lumps like there were in the morning.

I noticed a few times before yesterday that his uratus appeared to have a yellow tinge. I wasn't certain though and thought I was being paranoid.

Yesterday I offered him water mixed with a little apple juice - about 3tbsp water to 2tbsp juice. I dripped it on his nose and he drank several drops. There's usually a lot of liquid with his poop when he has silkworms and hornworms, but I've run out of both so he's been having roaches instead. They tend to make his poops less watery.

When I feed him calcium dusted feeders on tuesdays, I usually dust them all. I drop a very small pinch into a beaker with them, and shake it around lightly. I then dump feeders and any loose dust straight into his food dish. I thought about only dusting half, but I was so worried he might not get enough calcium.

Should I skip his next calcium dusting if his uratus continues to look a bit yelllow?
 

MsCarter

Juvie Member
Sounds like he may have had a very mild impaction. Hornworms are a great way to add extra mouisture and since you ran out of both them and silks the roaches may have thrown him off a little. Nothing to worry about, just for future reference with him I would offer extra water when I fed only roaches. That should help his system pass things along a little better. Sounds like he's use to those soft bodied worms, that's good though they are healthy for him.

I would try skipping a day with the calcium just to see how the urate looks it shouldn't hurt a thing. Your schedule sounds really good in my honest option though so I wouldnt tweak it too much. Just try that and see if there is any improvements and than you can take it from there and figure out if you just need to lighten up on the calcium that day or what.
Hope it works for your little buddy. Keep us posted and let us know how he does
 

BrightStar

Hatchling Member
Original Poster
Thank you for the reassurance. Rygel is my first beardie, so I'm constantly worrying I'm doing something wrong - even though he's growing well, is active, and has a good appetite.

I brought red runner roaches and dubias for him the other week. He won't eat the red runners when they're very small, so I ended up feeding off all the larger ones, and now I have to wait for the smalls to get bigger. Rygel seems to really like them, but I found them to be nothing but trouble - fast and excellent at escaping - so i don't think I'll buy them again after these are gone. I'd like to try him with orange heads next. I have an order of them (and more hornworms) hopefully arriving later this week. Rygel is really picky about dubias, and I've worried about feeding him them due to impaction risk (although I'm trying to transfer any that are too large into my breeder bin). I ran out of larger sized silkworms the other week, and the ones I do have are too small at the moment to be cost effective to feed, so he has one every now and then as a treat, but I really can't feed them to him properly until they grow a bit.

I wouldn't mind feeding him hornworms more often-I read they're a good source of moisture. But can they be used as a staple? I usually only feed him two or three at most every day( when I have them), but I wouldn't mind feeding them to him more.

I dripped water on his nose today, and he licked a few drops. I spray his salad with water, but he barely ever bothers with his greens.

I thought that next time he's due his calcium (next Tuesday) I'd only dust half his feeders if the uratus looks a bit yellow, and maybe skip the calcium completely that week if his uratus is hard. Does that sound okay? If I do reduce his calcium, is there any way to tell he's not getting enough calcium?
 

MsCarter

Juvie Member
It sounds like you feed him a very healthy variety which is great! My girl tends to prefer soft bodied worms as well and hornworms are her absolute favorites. The thing with hornworms is they are approximately 80% mouisture. This can cause runny poop which you really don't want to happen too frequently. Extra water surrounding the feces and a watery urate is fine but you don't want the actual feces itself to be too runny. Every dragon is different, my female can handle 5 large hornworms every other day with no issues, it actually helps her use the bathroom more regularly. However if I give more than 5 her poop begins to be a little on the runny side. Just keep an eye on that and determine if you believe he can handle a few more at a time.

The roaches are fine to feed. They may alter his poop schedule a little since they have a harder shell compared to horns and silks but that's perfectly understandable and fine. Skipping a day here and there will not harm your buddy and is perfectly normal.
I wouldn't really cut the calcium out too much. Maybe just back one day and see how his urate looks. He's a young growing dragon that needs plenty of it and I really like the sound of your current schedule. Most insects have a poor ca:p ratio (with BSFL being an exception) so dusting them helps even things out a bit. Sounds like he gets plenty of mouisture so i honestly don't believe you have any serious problems here :) from time to time they all usually skip a day or two with a bowl movement. It's also common to notice a yellow tint on urates once in awhile. While it certainly doesn't hurt to experiment and cut back on calcium just a pinch to see if this makes a difference, you don't really want to alter things more than you need to without observing your baby for the next few days to see how they are handling things.
 

BrightStar

Hatchling Member
Original Poster
Rygel's poop today contained another hard uratus. I noticed it was very white in color, which I figured was good? -- but the uratus was certainly very hard, which leaves me confused. Is it a high calcium issue or a dehydration issue? He had Phoenix worms and dubia yesterday, and Phoenix worms and dubia again today. I haven't dusted anything with calcium since Tuesday, since he only has calcium once a week because I'm feeding him Phoenix worms in the mornings Monday, Wednesday, Thursday and Friday.
 

MsCarter

Juvie Member
Sounds like it may be hydration at this point. I would like to say that its normal for the urate to be well formed and "chalky" like. When it's runny it usually indicates extra mouisture was in the beardies system which is fine as well. I really don't think you have a calcium issue, as mentioned your schedule is great. You usually can't overdose them on calcium alone. They will simply get rid of any calcium they do not need. It's when you are using calcium mixed with D3 very often and have a good uvb source that can create issues. Phoenix worms have a very healthy amount of calcium and a near perfect ca:p ratio so I know that is fine and not going to harm him.

Can you post a picture of his urate next time this happens? I'm thinking all is fine and he most likely didn't have as much extra mouisture to get rid of so his urate was well formed. But it wouldn't hurt to have us take a look just to be safe
 

Drache613

BD.org Sicko
Staff member
Moderator
Hello,

I agree, at this point, it sounds more like hydration issues than supplementation problems. Your supplemental schedule is great & their urates are not always perfectly white, either. Just the hardness is the more concerning issue.
You can try giving some oral fluids with a plastic dropper or syringe to help out with urate hardness. Backing off on the calcium a bit here & there is ok, too. Which brand of vitamins do you use?

Tracie
 

BrightStar

Hatchling Member
Original Poster
MsCarter: I'll try to get a picture next time he does a poop.

Drache613: The calcium supplement I'm using is rep-cal (with vit d3). The vitamin supplement I use is herptivite.
 

MsCarter

Juvie Member
Drache613 will be able to help you out and offer you some great advice if needed. When you can upload that pic we will all take a look and see how things look.
 

BrightStar

Hatchling Member
Original Poster
Here's a picture taken today.

88500-7678957516.jpg

He's had dubia 2 x a day during the weekend. Phoenix worms and dubia today. He did this poop about 3hrs after he ate breakfast, so it's a little later than usual. His hornworms arrived friday, so I've been giving him 2-3 with his 2nd meal every day.

His poop today looked like it usually does. The uratus was pretty soft. When it was hard last week, there was none at all of that extra liquid which was in today's poop.
 

Rankins

Gray-bearded Member
This sounds like a bit of dehydration to me.The urates are like lizard urine and their way of eliminating processed protiens. I would increase hydration and offer more greens. I would offer them as the first meal of the day so he gets hydration before eating bugs.
The last picture looks good to me.
 

MsCarter

Juvie Member
Everything looks good. The urate In the pic shows that he has gotten plenty of mouisture because it is runny. Other times it may be more well formed which is okay as well. You just don't want it to be hard. Just as Rankins suggested when you do believe it is on the hard side offer more water. And begin offering greens as the first meal everyday regardless. They obtain a large amount of mouisture from their greens and not to mention of all of the beneficial nutrition greens have to offer.
Hope we were able to help you a little here.
 

Rankins

Gray-bearded Member
I kind of got in the habit of offering greens as the first meal of the day because it encourages them to eat more of them. If they totally fill up on bugs they will likely ignore the greens. But rarely will they eat so much greens they will refuse bugs. It's kind of like eating your vegetables before you get your desert.
Others may disagree with the above...and I'm okay with that. We all develop our husbandry practices differently...and this is what has worked for me for a long time.
 
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