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Very, very confused...

PostPosted: Sun May 26, 2019 7:59 am
by Blackbeardie
I have three bearded dragons, which have been identified by our vet as two females and one male. The male has very prominent femoral pores; they are barely visible on the other two. I have tried looking for the tail bulges, and I only see them on the male. I've tried transilluminating their tails, but I haven't been able to see anything clearly on the females. None of them have ever laid eggs.

While they each live in separate tanks, I often will let them out to explore around the house. Usually, they ignore each other, but once in a while they will interact.

This morning, I had my two females out, and one rushed at the other and latched onto the back of her head with her jaws. At first I thought it was aggression, and started to try to separate them, but the the biting one mounted her, grasped her with her hind legs, and twisted around to be cloaca to cloaca. "She" then proceeded to go glassy eyed and immobile for about a minute before coming to.

I've seen videos of bearded dragons mating, and this looked exactly like them. Well, I must have been mistaken about the genders, right? So I thought, until a half hour later, they rushed towards each other again. This time, the one that had been mounted previously climbed on top of the the one that had done the mounting, and proceeded to go through the exact same sequence, complete with the glassy eyed swoon at the the end.

I did not actually see hemipenes in either case. Their cloacas were slightly opened afterwards, but not enough that I could see anything unequivocally male.

So, two "female" dragons each in turn mounted each other and proceeded to have what certainly looked like orgasms. I have read that females will sometimes mount each other to stimulate their competitors to cycle their eggs to make them reproductively unavailable. However, do the females simulate mating that closely, including having orgasms? Or do I have gay bearded dragons? Very confused!

Re: Very, very confused...

PostPosted: Sun May 26, 2019 8:15 am
by Blackbeardie

Re: Very, very confused...

PostPosted: Sun May 26, 2019 8:16 am
by Blackbeardie

Re: Very, very confused...

PostPosted: Sun May 26, 2019 8:16 am
by Blackbeardie
This is the tail/vent of "female" #2

https://www.beardeddragon.org/useruploa ... _large.jpg

Re: Very, very confused...

PostPosted: Tue May 28, 2019 2:30 pm
by CooperDragon
Huh, that's odd. The first one definitely looks male. The first "female" looks male to me but I can't quite tell for sure from the photo. The second "female" also looks male to me. Do you have a stronger light you can try to use to check?

Re: Very, very confused...

PostPosted: Tue May 28, 2019 5:00 pm
by claudiusx
It's hard to tell from the two pics of the females. Try to get the light to cast a shadow over the tail so that it's more pronounced on picture.

Did you see if there was penetration? Because that would have been pretty telling. However I did come across and ig post two weeks ago of a hermaphrodite dragon who had been proven to both have laid a fertile clutch, and mated with another female which laid a fertile clutch.

-Brandon

Re: Very, very confused...

PostPosted: Tue May 28, 2019 5:18 pm
by Blackbeardie
I'll try to post some additional pictures of the two "females"; I just may not have time to do it for another day or two.

They were positioned such that penetration could have occurred, but I couldn't see if it actually happened. In each case, when I turned the mounting dragon over afterwards, their cloaca was partially open, with some pink-purple tissue visible just at the opening. However, nothing was really protruding, and I think I could have either been looking at cloacal lining or a near-fully retracted hemipene. I've seen photos of dragon hemipenes, and I cannot make the call based on what I saw.

I'll admit I was taken by surprise in both cases, and the geometry did not make it easy to see what was going on underneath.

Re: Very, very confused...

PostPosted: Thu May 30, 2019 5:38 pm
by Blackbeardie

Re: Very, very confused...

PostPosted: Thu May 30, 2019 5:40 pm
by Blackbeardie

Re: Very, very confused...

PostPosted: Fri May 31, 2019 8:10 am
by CooperDragon
They still kind of both look male to me. I don't see a distinctive single bump on the first one. The second one does look pretty clearly male in my opinion.

Re: Very, very confused...

PostPosted: Fri May 31, 2019 8:24 am
by claudiusx
Agreed the second one looks Male but honestly the positioning isnt ideal for sexing.

If you could keep the dragon flat on the ground and arch only the tail back, like in the pictures in the sexing guide on this site, it might help.

-Brandon

Re: Very, very confused...

PostPosted: Sat Jun 01, 2019 10:48 am
by Blackbeardie

Re: Very, very confused...

PostPosted: Sat Jun 01, 2019 10:51 am
by Blackbeardie

Re: Very, very confused...

PostPosted: Sat Jun 01, 2019 11:31 am
by claudiusx
Lighting is better on female 1. I dont see anything popping out at me as male. female two is still hard to see because of the lighting, sorry :(

-Brandon

Re: Very, very confused...

PostPosted: Tue Jun 04, 2019 2:19 pm
by Blackbeardie