plz, QUESTION FOR DRACHE and anyone else who might know....

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3bds

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MY 4 1/2 YEAR OLD, 843 gm BEARDED DRAGON MALE IS DYING. I have taken him to the reptile vet twice for gaping and having somewhat swollen gums. After a blood test (no infection, good kidney function, good calcium) and x-ray (good bone density,no broken bones, no obstructions), he put him on meloxicam (.03 ml daily) and baytril (.04 ml daily) for amouth infection which he thought was secondary to something else. I have been syringe feeding him about 10 - 15 ml of baby food with some vitamins about 2 - 3 times a week. I swab his gums semi-daily with a very dilute betadine solution which seem to improve things very slightly. Between the two vet visits (3 weeks apart), he actualy gained 13 gms. He had a fall of about 4 feet two months ago while sunning outside (he suns several hours every weekend). This evening he had a liver -colored mass (1 cm long)mass on the right side of his mouth like tissue under his gums had burst. He is comatose. I was about to bury him when he started gaping and breathing heavily. I have left him on a mat of about 90 F with a washcloth over him.

Possibly linked, his cousin/brother/stepbrother (purchased at the same pet shop which buys eggs from customers and hatches them) died a month ago, also with blood from the mouth (but a very large amount -exsanguinated).

I have a 3rd bearded dragon, 9 1/2 years old, female, completely unrelated rescue, whom I am now worried about.

I know I will be burying him tomorrow....What can possibly be the cause?
 

Jasper's Mom

BD.org Addict
What was the vet's reasoning for putting him on Baytril? Did he see a raised white cell count or other indication of infection when he did the tests?
 

3bds

Member
Original Poster
the vet saw the blood on his gums, because he thrashed a little when I was taking him to the vet. He had seen him 3 weeks earlier...and since the test were inconclusive, he decided he had a mouth infection of some kind. ( i just took a flashlight and looked at him. i cannot tell if he is dead or barely alive. but i probably will be burying him tomorrow. it is not merciful to put them in the refrigerator and I could not find a vet to put him to sleep (gas is the best I hear, from a vet student). My daughter, an internal medicine doctor, tells me to give his very tired body a rest and not stress him further from transporting him to a vet. Let him die in peace, she tells me. He is already unconcious and does not fell pain.
I am so clogged up from weeping because all my herps are my SOs. I can't breathe.

I cleaned up the clots in his mouth with some water and q-tips but there is this large liver-colored swelling that is not a clot. His eyes are open but he doesn't see me.

Lola, his girlfriend(never mated at 9 yrs) is VERY upset and has closed her eye in the diretion of his tank.

i think she knows.
 

Pleaides

Juvie Member
wow i am so very sorry to have read about your troubles
i really hope he doeant feel anything for both your sakes, and i wouldnt bury him unless he really is gone for sure, even if he is comotose i couldnt do that, thats not nice.
 

Tatty

Juvie Member
I really hate to say this but do not bury him until you are sure he is gone. Rigor mortis or stiffness is the certain key. Comfort your beardie. Keep him warm and cozy. Talk to him and pet him. Hold him if you can manage. You won't regret it. You will be giving him the best gift you possibly can if you do this. I am very sorry you have to go through this but I have been in your place before and this is exactly the route I have taken.

God Bless

Tatty :cry:
 

Drache613

BD.org Sicko
Staff member
Moderator
Hello,

I am waiting to hear back from him regarding his dragon. I suggested a few things for him. I requested a copy of his blood test as well.
I feel that the vet missed something during the visit. He has a mouth infection & it being treated for it, but I feel it has gone systemic into stomatitis badly. Though I can't be sure, of course.
Gaping & swollen gums is classic stomatitis so it could have gone systemic on him which will make him very ill. I find it hard to believe the vet did not see anything on the blood test though?

Tracie
 

Pleaides

Juvie Member
oh dear
that is very bad indeed if the vet missed something like that.

any news on your lil beardie 3bds?
 

3bds

Member
Original Poster
Monday morning Josh was comatose. I lifted him up and he was very soft and flexible. Blood was clotted on his lips. His left eye was open and staring. There was a liver colored mass on his right gum. He had no responses. I put him back on his ~90F towel and covered him in his hide. When I came home from work, he had stiffened. I buried him in his favorite towel of many colors next to his brother. I felt his chin and there were 3 or 4 little (about 5 mm) mushy lumpy masses on the right side. The left side , I could feel his jawbone and it was clean. Definitely assymmetry.
On the internet I had been googling phrases "reptile swollen gums" etc with little success. Now today, I tried "reptile oral tumor" and "reptile squamous cell carcinoma (SCC)". I had many informative hits that lead me to believe he had the symptoms of a mouth cancer that ruptured and hemorrhaged (just like his brother/cousin 6 weeks ago from the same petshop). There were several reptile vet books with hundreds of pages that could be read and vet articles. Examples of information are "inbred dragons have a life expectancy of 4-5 years...less inbred 7-10 years", different lizards species have more tumors in locations that are dependent on the species , e.g, iguanas, in the kidneys; beardeds in the liver, beardeds have a more frequent incidence of luekemia, inbred beardeds have higher rates of cancer (I think that's what I read). Also, there was an article on how little can be done for little lizrds with cancers because surgery on little lizards is problematic, no one knows the effective amount of radiation or chemo. Also, there was an operation on a tegu with a mouth mass with pictures (i didn't know tumors had so many blood vessels that had to be cauterized). There was a zoo article where a beardie was treated for 10 months with supportive therapy, surgery, lots of vet atention, and chemo and was eventually euthanized. Some SCCs have pockets of necrotic tissue and "on gross examination" are difficult to differentiate from stomatitis (to quote one of the articles).

Hardly anything could have been done about Josh. Maybe more exotic vet experience will benefit future beardies.

In retrospect, had I known, I would have put him to sleep to spare him the 6 weeks of discomfort and the stress of 2 vet visits. Refrigeration is not humane. Pithing under anesthesia is one preferred method.

Thanks to all of you. I did not get a copy of the blood test (probably they only tested for the ordinary things....). Cancer would explain why he didn't have a high white cell count. The I will be looking for little bearded companions after I come back from Obama's inaugural (where I will see the backs of 5 million heads from the lincoln memorial)
Gotta go to work now.
 
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