So thin after laying.No apetite.edit:MORE EGGS help!

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Ethelia

Extreme Poster
Ive been discussing this in a number of other topics, but Im getting very distressed and desperate so Im starting a new thread to try to get some more help.

Here's the background:

Dex is a rescued female with two missing claws. She was hardly fed and kept in a viv with multiple species of lizards.
She was incredibly skinny and agressive when we first brought her home. Now she is an affectionate cuddlebug who loves nothing more than to run around and snuggle into my neck.
At the best of times she hasnt the best apetite, but she would eat supers, devour locusts and i would trick her into eating veggies too. But even still she would require special attention, and often would only eat if I hand fed her. She would never eat if my partner was in the room.

A month ago her apetite disapeared, she was running everywhere, digging and had a huge belly. After two weeks in a laybox she showed no signs of wanting to lay. A week after that she spent 3 days at a reptile store, still nothing. A week later... she lays 17 eggs in her sleeping box.
During this time I was coaxing her to eat 2-3 supers every 4 days or so. I would also feed her chicken+squash babyfood with vits every 5 days that she didnt eat because I wanted to keep up her vitamin intake.

Now:
Dexter laid sunday morning and I was relieved. Thank GOD she was pregant and it wasnt something serious, now I was sure her apetite would return.
No chance.
Forget her eating from her food bowls, even if I waggle/dangle worms at her she just looks at me like there is nothing there. She wont even accept waxworms, which she would usually walk through fire to get.
Because she is so thin Ive been syringing her 10-12mls of babyfood with calc+vits daily. But her lack of interest in food is getting really scary. Even if i open her mouth and put supers/waxies in she just bites them once and lets them fall out of her mouth!
Every store Ive called says she SHOULD be ravenous.
The day after she laid I picked her up and could feel her ribs and her belly was flacid.
Today (3 days later) she feels heavier and her skin is less loose, but this is only due to me force feeding her and she is still thin.

What can I do?
Im terrified shes just fading away from me, and that laying was too traumatic for her body.
Ive fought so hard to get her back to health and to tame her when we adopted her. I cant let her go.


From the day after she laid, snubbing everything I offered her:
skinny1.jpg


The next day, still skinny:
skinny2.jpg


Today. Starting to put some weight on underneath on her belly.
skinny3.jpg



How old is your dragon? Unknown as she is a rescue.
How long have you had your dragon? 4 months
How long is your dragon? 17 inches.
What is the sex of your dragon? female
What size enclosure do you have your dragon in? 120gallon
What type substrate do you have on the bottom of your tank? sifted playsand
Do you use UVB lights? yes.
If so, Is it a coil, compact, fluorescent tube, or Mercury Vapor bulb? mercury vapor Realsun 100w (awful brand but all they stock in Hull. Im getting a TREX ACTIVE MVB next month when ive been paid).
How old is your UVB bulb? 4 months
How close can your dragon get to the UVB? no closer than 8 inches.
What are the basking temps? 115
What is the cool side temp? 83
Do you take the temps with a stick on thermometer, a digital thermometer with a wire and a probe end or a temp gun? a digital thermom with a probe (i have two in there because im paranoid)
Where exactly are you taking your basking temps? directly under the lamp on her basking rocks.
Do you use a heat rock or heat pad? nope.
What do you feed your dragon? Please be specific. PREVIOUSLY: veggies (chinese leaf, spinach, watercress, rocket leaf, little carrot, occasional fruit) cut up into small bits, mealworms sprinkled on top to attract her attention, around 2-4 superworms, 3 large locust a day.
How often do you feed and what time do you feed (morning, afternoon, night)? she is given her food when her light goes on in the morning. food is taken out at night.
Do you gutload (feed) your crickets, worms, etc? yes.
Do you use vitamin or calcium supplements? What brand(s)? How many days a week do you use each of them? 'Dragon Dust' ICB and Veggie all in one vits.
Is your dragon having regular bowel movements (poops)? yes.
Do you bath your dragon? How often? once daily in the evening a few hours befor lights out.
Do you mist your dragon or offer water other than in the bath? mist yes. she will only drink from her bath though.
Does your dragon share an enclosure with another dragon? no.
Have you gotten a vet check and fecal done? no. im still looking for a vet who is familiar with reptiles. I live in a small village and so far Ive found none in the main city or surrounding cities.


Activity:
She has been doing alot of basking. Wonders around a little onto different positions to flop into. Sleeps in her hide at night.

Please help.
I have no where to turn and Im in a complete state.
 

sunkist

Sub-Adult Member
Keep in mind though she's been on a "diet" for a month now... her belly has shrunk just like yours does and you don't require as much. She will get her appetite back as you increase her babyfood consumption. She's just got to work up to it.

At least that is my rationale.
 

Drache613

BD.org Sicko
Staff member
Moderator
Hello,

How is your girl doing?
First, I would decrease your basking temps to 105. The 115 I think is too high for her right now, & is dehydrating her. Keep the temps between 95-105 right now. She is very dehydrated, which is evident with her fatpads sinking in on top of her head.
Also, it is a possibility that she may have retained some eggs, just because she was a rescue. Perhaps she had some retained before you got her, then she finally was able to lay when you got her. That happens alot. How old do you feel that she is? If she is at leatsl 3, it is a real possibility that she retained eggs last year since she was so poorly taken care of & was probably unable to lay at that point.
IF you have the money, I recommend getting an x-ray to see if she has anything going on in there.
Continue to push the fluids, & the babyfood. Give small amounts in several increments. Are you adding some calcium daily as well?

Tracie
 

Ethelia

Extreme Poster
Original Poster
Hi there,
Dex is still dehydrated and showing no interest in food.
Her waterstores disapeared out of nowhere a couple of days before she laid and Im still pushing to get them back up.
Im giving her two 20 minute baths a day. Although she'll only drink from her morning bath im giving her two in the hope she can absorb some more through her vent.
(ironically 115 was a mistype. her spot is currently 104.6)

She had not been pooping until 2 days ago in the bath when she passed a sticky white substance. Since then she has been pooping regularly in the morning.

Im really unsure of her age because she was a real 'runt' when we got her. She was around 15-16 inches and thin as a rake then, and the rescue sanctuary told me it was unlikely that she'd ever be a big girl as she was food deprived when she was growing.
Saying that I think she's actually grown an inch from when we got her.

Im unsure if she couldve retained the eggs from a previous year because she was just SO thin when we got her. Im not sure how it could be possible, but Im certainly no expert on beardie anatomy!
She plumped up a little after the first month of pampering, but when we hit the 3-4month mark she put on ALOT of weight on her belly. She held the eggs in for around a month before she laid and now has shrunk down to the kind of size she was when we first got her.

Food wise Ive been syringing her 12ish ml every afternoon in one sitting. Ive been doing it in one sitting because Im having to open her mouth for her and I find it very distressing because she will wiggle and squirm. I thought perhaps only stressing her once a day was better? But I'll try to be brave and start feeding her in a few sittings throughout the day.
Im using an all in one vitamin suppliment (dragon dust ICB) which has high levels of calc in.

I havent found a single vet who has had any experience with ANY lizard, let alone a beardie. Not in my village, the surrounding villages, or even the surrounding cities.
I dont want to sound cruel, and its upsetting me dreadfully, but I simply cant afford to take her to a vet who wont definatly be able to help her. Im a third year law student so I have no savings.
Would a vet who isnt familiar with reptiles know what to look for on an xray?

I rescued Dex instead of buying a healthy baby because I wanted to give her a second chance at life and lots of love.
I love her more than any pet I have owned because I had to fight so hard to tame her and get her to eat, but I cant be selfish and Im not going to let her suffer. If somehow she gets worse and I cant find a vet I'll have to give her to a rescue center where they can give her the medical care she needs.
I just dont want that to happen.

Thank you for your help.
No pet stores will help me and no one understands how dearly I love my little girl.
This place is a godsend.
 

MissT

BD.org Addict
IF you take her to a regular vet, who is willing to help, you can always post the x-rays/results/diagnosis/treatment on here to double check everything the vet says...

The Dragon dust ICB isnt really a recommended supplement. Especially when she has just laid eggs. Try and get some calypso calcium as her calcium supplement (its relatively cheap - I got a small tub for about £3.00 I think) and some nutrabol as her vitamin supplement - as she has just laid her calcium stores will be very low so she needs to be getting a good calcium supplement 5x per week (with the babyfood) to build her up again.

Ethelia":bf9b4 said:
I rescued Dex instead of buying a healthy baby because I wanted to give her a second chance at life and lots of love.
I love her more than any pet I have owned because I had to fight so hard to tame her and get her to eat, but I cant be selfish and Im not going to let her suffer. If somehow she gets worse and I cant find a vet I'll have to give her to a rescue center where they can give her the medical care she needs.
I just dont want that to happen.
And your doing a fab job at giving her that love and attention that she needed. Just a thought but if you do know of a rescue center, could you contact them to ask advice regarding vets etc?

I hope she gets her appetite back soon!! Good luck!

T
 

HowlinGaleDragon

Sub-Adult Member
Retired Moderator
My one female did that it was too much stress on her it was her first time laying she looks dehydrated you need to give her pedialite and baths Baby food is great but what is better is Jump Start or if you can get it Carnivore Care or Critical Care this is high calorie foods that will greatly help her, keep giving her Calcium liquid Calciums would be best if you can get it from your Pharmacy, I hope she gets better just give her time
 

whiskersmom

BD.org Addict
Retired Moderator
My female has a rough time laying her infertiles too. The fat stores on her head (from what I've been told by my vet and a few breeders) naturally deplete after laying. I don't know if it has to do so much with dehydration (although making sure she is hydrated is extremely important) but with her hormones. At this point keeping her calcium and hydration up is what's really critical, she can actually go quite awhile without food, besides it sounds as if you are making sure she's getting some nutrients, which is good.
This is a very worrisome time for you (I know, I've been there quite a few times) but I think she'll be alright as long as you bath her every day (maybe twice a day) and make sure she's getting her calcium. Keep offering her live food along with the baby food and she'll come around. :)
 

Drache613

BD.org Sicko
Staff member
Moderator
Hello,

How is Dex doing? Are the fatpads coming up at all? She may need some subcutaneous liquids that would assimilate in her system better than oral at the moment.
A regular vet may not know exactly what to look for on the x-ray but it really is not that difficult to "see" eggs if they are there.
I agree, Calypso calcium would be much better as it is straight calcium instead of calcium in combination with vitamins. I would use the Dragon dust 2 times per week & the Calypso 5 times right now anyway.
I hope that you begin to see some improvement very soon. Please let us know how she is doing.
Ok, the temps are fine then at 104 or so no problem.

Tracie
 

Ethelia

Extreme Poster
Original Poster
Thank you all for replying.
Im sorry I keep getting so emotional on here, I know its not really going to help.

The reptile stores here are dire (both insist i should NEVER give her pure calcium. sigh) so Im currently browsing websites to buy some Calypso Calcium and Critial Care for her. The downside is ofc that I wont recieve them for at least three days.

Dex is still in sulk mode, mainly basking but she perked up when I came home. She even had a little explore which she hasnt done since she's laid. She'd just shuffle closer to me and go to sleep on my feet (i dont think anyones told her she's not a puppy).

Her hydration is slowly getting better. The stores in her head now arent so horribly hollow. So she is still on two baths a day.
Still no apetite so Im going to give her some babyfood tonight and maybe a bug smoothie if I can get our blender to work.

Im going to drive out to see a vet tomorrow. He treated my dog for years and if I have to trust a vet who isnt familiar with lizards, he's definatly my first choice.

I will keep you updated.

I cant thank you enough x
 

Ethelia

Extreme Poster
Original Poster
Update:
I found a vet! He is an exotic pet expert and spends most of his time with seals and reptiles! Not only that but he is only a 5 minute drive from my parents home.
Downside is he is away until next sunday /bashes head on desk.
At least now I have a set date when if Dex hasnt perked up I will definatly take her there. Its not ideal but at least its subsiding my panic a little.

Dex:
Being a bit of a madame. Here is her and her first mouthful of babyfood which she decided to PUTHHHH out and clamp her eyes shut.
After she had her fun she behaved and let me feed her.

spit.jpg


Dex herself is bizarrely showing me the most cremey white belly she has ever had since she's been with me.
Youve almost always been after to faintly make out lightgrey markings on her.
Today just after her feeding and a snuggle its all cremey and gorgeous.
They are SUCH confusing devils at times x
 

sunkist

Sub-Adult Member
I'm glad you found a vet!!!!

You know.... Dex may just realize that you truly love her even when you are force feeding her.
 

Ethelia

Extreme Poster
Original Poster
Help!
She just laid another 3 eggs tonight whilst I was out. The eggs were laid in two different patches close to eachother. Two were perfectly formed. One was collapsed.
What on earth do I do?
Its been 5 days since she laid 17 eggs. Is this normal to lay so far apart or is this something to worry about? Is she done now?
Please help! I cant take her to the vet until he is back late next week.
I really have no idea what to do for her!!
 

Drache613

BD.org Sicko
Staff member
Moderator
Hello,

Well, it is not real normal for them to lay eggs sporatically like that. You definitely need to watch her behavior very closely. I am sorry you can't get her to the vet until next week.
Make sure she is comfortable & just keep track of her weight carefully too. How do her fatpads look right now?
So one egg was totally collapsed? I am just hoping that none have burst inside of her. Her stools, do they look normal, or how often has she had a stool? What about her urates?


Tracie
 
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